If No FT Offer After Jr. Year Internship, Am I Doomed?
Seeing how crucial the junior year internship is, and how that typically leads to a FT offer… what if you DON’T get an offer after your junior year internship? How crippling is that to your chances of landing another FT job when you’re interviewing your senior year of college?
I would imagine the no-offer after junior year would be quite stigmatizing… how do you overcome this?
More details? School/GPA/connections/internships/ECs?
Target school (but not H/W/P), GPA > 3.5...
Where are you at right now? No need for the name, just what tier BB and what type of role.
I won't lie to you; not having a FT offer is very damaging. Take that from someone who didn't have a FT offer at the time, and spent all senior year trying to recruit. I was at a target which helped but had a sub 3.5 GPA which screwed me, so that wasn't great either. Fortunately, I had a connection at a top AM, and leveraged that into a FT position.
It helps that you are at a target with a 3.5+GPA, which will be helpful even if you don't get the return offer, but you will still be fighting an uphill battle.
It’s not good, we hire 10% of analyst through FT versus 90% through SA. Just network hard sometimes we need additional analysts, have an SA turn down an offer (rare) or have one reneg. Some firms don’t really use SAs to fill their analyst classes mostly regional commercial banks and some of the foreign banks.
Thanks. But as far as a narrative, how damaging is it during an interview when you learn that you're talking to a guy who interned at a place last summer and didn't get the FT offer? And, in your opinion, what is the best way to spin it?
In short, it is very damaging. Assuming this is for full-time IBD recruiting, there are few spots open, and those spots that are open are often filled by people who did receive a return offer or laterals in the industry.
The best way to spin it is to say, "Our office took in a lot more interns than they had spots available. I received very positive feedback throughout the internship, but unfortunately they did not have capacity to extend me the offer. While I am very disappointed with the outcome, the summer was an incredible learning experience and has proved to me that I want to pursue this as my career and that I can be successful on the job." Probably the safest bet would be to cite cultural fit, though you have to tread a very fine line with the reasons you say.
Regardless of the above, there is still a huge looming question of why you didn't get the offer and others did. In my personal opinion, even a "damaged goods" no-return-offer candidate from GS would be significantly less likely to get an offer than someone with a return offer from Jefferies, for example.
A lot of people in this situation go do something else other than banking. For example if you recruit to tech you can just say, "Banking culture/hours/treatment was horrible, am I right? I did really well but they didn't have enough spots, but truthfully I learned midway through the internship that this wasn't the right path for me... [etc]"
Very helpful, thanks. Fortunately, I'm not in this situation (at least yet)... but just want to anticipate some of the best ways to handle this uncomfortable situation.
This is spot on. I interned at a BB in a regional office. Partially due to the office taking several laterals that summer, they did not hire all the SAs (I was one of the ones in this bucket), despite all of us receiving great mid-summer feedback. It's very frustrating, as they generally will dance around why they aren't extending an offer for HR purposes. It can be tough to convince interviewers you were capable, and that you just didn't fit in as well culturally as some of the other interns. If possible, if there is a VP-level person who you could ask to vouch for you if you need a reference, this can help.
It's an uphill battle, but possible to overcome / limit the damage. It's likely you'd have to step down a tier (I went to an MM full time). The good news is that after your interviews for your first job, it may never come up again, or if it does, you may be able to point to being a top bucket or otherwise solid performer at your FT job.
In the grand scheme of things, if you stay positive, it can just be a minor bump in the road, as others have bounced back from far worse failures than not receiving a full time offer.
wow yeah this is gold
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Here's the short version: the lack of return offer makes you a liability; getting a FT offer will be a difficult, uphill battle.
Here's the long version. As a disclaimer, I've been out of the IB recruiting game for ~3-4 years now, so not sure how much has changed regarding accelerated FT recruiting that kicks off right after SA internships.
Biggest question here is what happened at your internship? Was your group downsizing? Did your group take on far more interns than FT positions? If the latter, I'd leverage some flavor of what Synergy_or_Syzygy stated. I shopped my return offer around. Almost everyone I interviewed with started the conversation off with some combination of: why don't you want to go back, did you get a return offer, why us.
This is going to be an uphill battle for two big reasons. First, there are far less FT positions available (given slots are pre-filled with interns) and competition for those limited spots will be from candidates who have return offers. Second, your internship is your most relevant, tangible datapoint for evaluating candidacy. It should serve as a proxy if you can come back and do this FT or not. Not getting a return offer raises a big red flag and makes you a liability/ Charlie "wildcard".
To be successful at bouncing back from this, I think you need three things to happen (captain obvious here):
1) Tight explanation regarding the return offer - have an explanation that interviews can not only understand, but also come out thinking it's not an instant dealbreaker. I know this is easier said than done. More than anything you need to leave them thinking you're a solid analyst and things just didn't work out. Well-qualified candidates/interns get the short-end of the stick all the time. Don't want to force this onto interviewers; implant the idea in their head and make sure they come to this understanding themselves (wow, sorry for basically just rehashing Inception here).
2) Securing an "in" - in your early rounds of interviewing, you need to really impress someone so they can become an advocate for you. You really need to knock the socks off someone whose opinion is valued. Due to your position, there will undoubtedly be people who are reluctant on bringing you in for a superday. If you get invited to the superday, the same will apply to people wanting to give you an offer. More than ever, this is a situation where you need someone on the inside to pound the table on your behalf.
3) Have a good reference - hopefully there is someone (the more senior the better) from your internship who can give you a strong reference. I know a lot of people view reference checks as more of a "check the box" formality, but this is a situation where having a good one will really count. Even if you crush a superday interview, people will still have doubts regarding your capabilities (think "well he interviewed well but do we really think he can do a good job?"). A good reference will help sooth fears and help a prospective employer separate the lack of return offer from your qualifications to do a good job.
Some quick background. About 4-5 years ago one of my college roommates did not receive a return offer from his BB. His group was downsizing and he left on good terms with a few senior guys who were supportive of him landing on his feet with another job. I was looking at FT opportunities at the same time, and wanted to help him anyway I could (so I knew the day-to-day of his efforts). It wasn't easy, but he ended up getting 2 FT offers from other BBs and an offer from a highly regarded EB. He hustled like crazy, leveraging everyone in his network. He kept trying after receiving a slew of no's (various well-know banks told him upfront they would not consider someone without a return offer for FT recruiting). In interviews, some people completely identified where he was coming from and the position he was in while others clearly never got comfortable with the idea he wasn't offered a job from his internship.
Best of luck to you. This is going to be tough, but it's not impossible. Don't be shy and make sure to come back here if you have more questions.
Great, thorough advice. And extra props for the “Always Sunny” wildcard reference (at least I think you were doing that).
You know it! I was going to add a link to a youtube clip but I didn't want embed a video in what was already a lengthy wall of text. But since you mentioned it, here ya go!
Hey man, quick q: I'm recruiting for FT (non-target, 3.8, two lower mm IB SA gigs), but the shop I'm at right now doesn't hire out of its SA class. I have interviews with Lazard, PWP, BarCap, BTIG, WF, and Jefferies. Does the same thing apply? Like am I fucked since my current shop doesn't give out FT offers for SA's? I've basically been honest this whole time and told my interviewers exactly that.
Damn this makes me feel dumb for rejecting a FT offer from my most recent internship. I'm a nontarget, GPA>3.5 barely. I guess it should be a fun year lmao
Christ, no one can save you from your own idiocy. Even if you are not taking it, you ALWAYS keep a ball in hand versus chucking it out the window. It simultaneously acts as leverage when interviewing for another opportunity while also acting as a backup. And if the need an answer quickly, you accept, continue recruiting and when you find something better, you renege.
Of course, but I didn't wanna renege and ruin relationships. I really had a great time with them but corp fin. isn't what I wanted to do so I didn't wanna waste their time. Plus I would've had to relocate far. I'm just gonna grind this year, it will all work out
You received the offer though...so you’re good
I screwed up my audit internship and now end up with no full time offer (Originally Posted: 11/29/2017)
I am in my fifth year to get my master of accountancy degree at a big 4 target school. I did a winter internship with one of the big four companies and worked really hard during my 10 weeks there. I screwed up my opportunity of getting a return offer by requesting to transfer to a different office way before I should have mentioned it. During this fall I have tried to connect with campus recruiters of all big four and it seems that I just had bad luck and all of them were telling me that they did much of their hiring for full time from the winter internships and there was no open spot available for the office which I wanted to work for. One of the campus recruiter promised that he would circle back if opportunities opened up but it never happened.
Since the recruiting season has ended, I am wondering if there is any chances that I can somehow get a full time job after the recruiting season. Would it be worth it for me to wait for another year to see if I have better luck next fall (offices I want to work for have more openings)? Or have I screwed up my opportunity of starting my career in audit industry already?
Sorry if my questions are really dump but I really need your opinions! thanks a ton!
Hey MichaelScarn, I'm the WSO Monkey Bot and I'm here since nobody responded to your topic! Bummer...could just be unlucky but one of these topics will help shed some light:
More suggestions...
I hope those threads give you a bit more insight.
Thank you WSO Monkey Bot. I did look into all the threads you included here but nothing quite fit into my situation. Still a big thank you to you!
didn't get offer to return (Originally Posted: 12/20/2009)
didn't get offer to return for another summer from soph or freshman internships - is this an issue for SA recruiting, or is it not expected for soph/frosh interns to return? they never said "you cant return", just it was never mentioned
I'd say it is a non-issue. Just having an internship puts you heads and tails above 90% of the candidates out there. You will want to come up with your story on why you didn't go back. Maybe there was just not an opportunity. Maybe you didn't like the fit or whatever. I'd say the bigger issue is if you are a junior and are at a BB, the expectation is that you get a job or there's something wrong. With boutiques, it is totally different. Don't be so hard on yourself and just get it done.
Yeah companies like to rotate interns anyway. So unless you got negative feedback don't worry about it.
In my BB interviews I was never asked if my other internships asked me to return. Don't worrk about it.
If you worked for a real small company, and you did a good job, chances are they don't expect you to come back. When I was interviewing for my soph summer internship at a small buyside firm, one of the partners told me that if I wanted to do finance, it was imperative for me to go to NYC the following summer (i.e. not return).
No full time offer received from summer IBD, does anyone know places hiring for FT in finance and consulting fields? (Originally Posted: 08/15/2018)
I'm open to all options and strategies to tackling full time recruiting. Would love insights and experiences too. Thank you!
Hi lolaskd, check out these links:
No promises, but sometimes if we mention a user, they will share their wisdom: yellowlabel06 ana.loibner caroline.chen249
You're welcome.
No FT Offer Given - Screwed? (Originally Posted: 08/27/2008)
I worked last summer for DB S&T and was not extended an offer. I know work as a mutual fund salesman for a top buy-side name; however, the skill-set building is not nearly as intense as the sell-side FT analyst position would have given me.
Anyone out there have any advice for this type of start to a career? Any one experience the same let down?
Seems like grad school may be the second chance...although there is opportunity at my current shop after 6 months - 1 year in.
Appreciate any words / advice.
skill set building in sell side s&t is really not that intense, you are mistaken.
Problem is the market--must work itself out. What did you do at DB?
5 weeks in cash sales/trading and 5 weeks in global prime finance.
Going to get the CFA level I and II over the next year and look for a jr. trader job on buy side.
No FT Offer (Originally Posted: 02/03/2009)
Hi,
I was just curiouse as to exactly how bad it looks from an employers standpoint if you did a internship with a BB and did not get a FT offer?
What bank was it?
ML
this year it does not at all...in the past it did when they hired 80-90% of class.
If you ended on good terms, I don't think it would matter too much (unless the group is known for having an extremely high offer rate)... but if you're applying to a related group at another bank, there's always a chance they'll know who you worked with and ask about you
its the same as having an offer from them this year to be honest.... those with offers are about to get the reneg call
Still No Full Time Offer... (Originally Posted: 02/24/2013)
Still no full time offer and I will be graduating at the end of this semester. Had a summer analyst gig in rates trading at a mid sized bank but no return offer. Currently interning part time at the moment at a reputable BB to build my resume. I've been extensively cold-emailing and setting up informational interviews over the phone. I will start cold calling aggressively to boost my chances. Any advice would be appreciated.
.
Life sucks some times...should have put more effort over the summer my friend
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