Background:
Sophomore at a semi-target
Interned at a big 4 this past summer
Interested in IBD
I just got an offer for BB ops in NY. That said, is ops looked down upon? Is it practical to believe that I can I land an IBD internship during my junior year after having interned at a big 4 and BB ops? Should I accept the offer and continue to seek other opportunities throughout the year? Should I decline? Any advice is appreciated.
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no
if you want to do IBD, then don't do ops
ever
You're better off waiting for an opportunity to intern at a boutique or MM firm, or a PE shop. Ops = waste of time
^Solidarity, dont agree at all. i have friends that did ops during their junior year summer and still ended up with an ibd positions full time. i say take the offer and network heavily like you should be doing anyways.
yeah i completely disagree with people telling you not to take it. Being a sophomore you still have plenty of time, so the ops internship will by no means take you out of the running for anything. if you have the opportunity to get something more relevant, obviously go for that, but you will definitely not be stuck in ops your whole life because of a sophomore internship.
I have until mid-September to decide. Should I accept and continue to seek other opportunities? If I find something better, can I renege on the commitment? Like I said, I'd hate to limit myself given the fact that IBD recruiting for interns is held during the spring semester.
His goal is IB and working in ops will not help his resume after his big 4 experience...
It's only a few weeks into summer recruiting season and you're saying he should accept an ops offer immediately?
It doesn't matter if your friends got FT offers. The point is to maximize your chances of getting into IBD (i.e. if they summered in IBD they would have gotten BETTER OFFERS). Don't be an idiot
Chicago - Don't accept the offer, and don't renege--you'll stand a good chance of getting blackballed / losing access to OCR. Keep networking and kick ass at the info sessions this semester.
^What's your solution, Solidarity? Do you think I should reject the offer? I don't have anything else aside from an offer to return to the big 4 but I'd like to see what's available come recruiting season.
Go by what leveRAGE said. As a sophomore you don't get too many attractive options, you might get a PWM internship or something back office related. No one really hires sophomores for anything decent. In your case, it's very early and you can still be competitive for junior year summer internships in IBD. Just keep your grades up until then. Obviously (like leveRAGE said), if until mid-September you get something more attractive (which I kind of doubt) go with that.
Solidarity's argument would make more sense if you were maybe entering your last year and you had an ops FT offer to decided on. In that case I would also say don't take it...but as a sophomore I think you're fine.
I think that you should go through the full recruiting season. A lot of banks take sophomores in specialized programs. I'm not familiar with your resume but if you were able to land big 4 front office as a freshman, then I'm assuming you have good resume / network to leverage. I just think it's too early to settle
Also, when does your big 4 offer explode? And what was your role this summer? It might be easier just to post a resume
I have yet to receive my formal big 4 offer but should be getting it soon. I took part in the 1st year of a 3-year program. My role encompassed a lot of excel and powerpoint work (whatever was assigned by the managers), an audit simulation, job shadowings and a research project (researched a company with 9 others and presented our pitch to a panel of 3 partners). I did not get any client exposure - freshmen typically aren't staffed on engagements.
It is very easy to network at a bb once you're in the door, particularly as an intern. If you reach out to them, literally everyone will take the time to meet with you. If you're a sophomore, whether or not you get a return offer is much less relevant. You basically have nothing to lose.
If this is a bb you want to work at, why wouldn't you take it and then network internally?
So long as it's in the same location as banking or whatever it is you want to do, it seems to me like you should take it.
To the OP--I think you would be better-positioned for your junior year by getting ANY front office position (consulting, research, S&T, corporate banking, IB, etc) this summer, whether it be at a boutique, middle market, or BB. If OCR at your school is fairly strong, then you should have no problem landing a FO gig. Widespread networking + relevant experience will always be >>> ops + networking within your bank.
Why would you take someone who did corporate banking or consulting at a no-name place over someone who did BO at a bb? not only is the former much easier to get but it's not even as relevant.
The bias towards back office exhibited in this forum is ridiculous and not at all representative of what you will actually find. If you're that worried, talk to alums at your school and ask them firsthand.
If I accept and find something better during recruiting season, can I simply renege on the agreement?
If you have nothing else then of course accept the ops offer. But that's like wanting to be principal at a high school but you aren't qualified yet so you apply to be a janitor there instead and work your way up. It's not going to happen.
Interning in a FO role ANYWHERE > Ops at GS > Nothing
Not at all. More like being a teacher and working your way up to being a principal.
Most people don't do it, but it is by no means impossible.
Back office positions generally require the same education as front office positions and it is not unheard of for people to make the transition.
I'm not sure about ops but I've talked to plenty of people who of people who made it from controllers.
i wouldn't be surprised if 1/3 of the rates desk at CS started in product control.
Also, didn't flake start full time in ops? If he was able to get a fo position after months of doing ops full time, there is no way in hell someone who did it their sophomore year couldn't. The work may not be that relevant but it sure as hell beats cold calling. At least you learn to use excel.
edit: happy?
A lot of what people are telling you is true, IF you were going for your last year of internship experience. Flake hit it pretty spot on. Sophomore internships are pretty limited as is and most are PWM or no name places. Take the position, learn as much as you can, and pick up some contacts. Use this as a stepping point for the next internship. No one is going to label you as an ops guy for taking an ops internship during your sophomore year, regardless of what anyone says.
Yeah -- think of sophomore summer internship as stepping stone to your junior year internship (IBD).
Prior posters are correct in a sense -- the skillset you build in Ops is NOT transferrable, and there is limited access to the front office. However, what does play in your favor is the BB nametag attached to the offer.
If you can't land a solid front office gig for sophomore year, then just focus on branding yourself. You should decide which firm has the stronger name, as none of your work experience at either firm will be directly relevant to IBD.
Also, if you intern at a BB in your sophomore year you can really focus on building a network and then making the jump to FO at that same BB junior year. You can't do that at the Big Four, unless you are thinking about moving into TAS.
The key is you are a year ahead of the game. Work that to your advantage.
Stop making me feel old, I'm already going through a 1/4-life crisis. It wasn't "years", it was approximately one year, which was about two years post undergrad.
Haha, thanks.
It just makes more sense to me to have relative experience somewhere that is 100% transferrable rather than some guy thats been working at the firm in IT for 20 years with no transferrable skills. It's just how it works most of it times. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it makes more sense to get skills you can use. That's awesome that Flake made it that way, but 99% of other people make it by going the more traditional route.
And product control is more Middle Office, which is a lot easier to lateral to FO from. But I get your point.
I think I'll wait until mid-September, see if I can find something before then (I have scheduled some informal calls with a few BBs). In all likelihood, I won't find anything by mid-September and if I don't, I'll accept but continue to seek other opportunities during recruiting season.
Uh ok dude 1. You will NEVER do corporate banking at a "no-name place" (do you even know what corporate banking is?) 2. Much easier to spin a skillset from any sort of consulting, research, or even audit position. You compile freaking databases in ops. 3. I have NEVER seen or heard of a FT employee transition from BO to investment banking at a bulge bracket (sans b-school) 4. I HAVE seen interns in ops get into a variety of front office positions (like people have said, this happens quite frequently but more so only within the bank) 5. How many Wharton kids do you see doing ops? None. Plenty of my buddies at Penn have taken front-office internships at tiny boutiques or funds their freshman/sophomore years. They would have NEVER taken that BB ops offer over the $250mm AUM hedge fund or 5-man boutique i-bank. Why? Because the skill set is simply irrelevant for i-banking.
I landed a research position at a large asset manager as an underclassman. Also had an ops offer from JPM and a middle-office offer with Fidelity. My friends who were interested in finance early in the game were also able to get front-office positions as freshmen/sophomores. If you're worried about recruiting, then accept the offer. Under NO circumstances should you accept and then renege. If you accept now, then you might as well stop interviewing. You will be blackballed by both the company AND your school's campus recruiting if you renege (no resume drops for you junior year...). My opinion is that you should keep looking and that it is very possible for you to find an internship that is more applicable than BB ops.
Good luck man.
No need to be a douche about it.
Have you honestly heard of most of the companies on the fortune 500 list? Yes they may be big companies but the odds of someone recognizing them, particularly someone who works in a product group are slim to none.
As a sophomore at a consulting firm, you're more likely to be editing power point presentations and putting binders together than anything else.
As irrelevant as reconciliations or whatever it is that you do in ops may be, at least you are using excel and learning the various shortcut keys. Also, if you have any sort of initiative, you will have plenty of opportunities to learn more about the products and interact + learn from the traders.
Yes, if you do ops full time, you're not getting into banking, but this doesn't particularly apply to the op.
Back on topic though, whether you go to a target or not makes a huge difference in your approach. If you're at a target, the contacts come easy. Differentiating yourself is more of a concern.
If you're not at a target, those contacts at a BB are much more difficult to get and starting out at a BO position may be your only way in at a bank. The experience will come later on. if you don't have the name of your school there to help you, imo a bb on your resume will do much more than another unknown boutique. Keep in mind that as a sophomore, even back office internships at large banks are difficult to get. Again, i'm sure that your experiences differ wildly but from my school, those who ultimately got front office positions at top banks started out in back office positions their freshman or sophomore year. Those who went to random boutiques ultimately ended up back at those boutiques junior year.
^^ Yeah definitely no reneging that's for sure.
I'm going to consult my school's career center, see what they think. At this point, I'm leaning towards rejecting the offer and taking my chances with recruiting next semester. Thank you for the help everyone. I appreciate your input.
Any way for you to get into the corporate finance/valuations/TAS side of Big 4 for your internship? If you do that, the experience you get is much more relevant than BO at BB. I second the thoughts on no-name consulting boutiques or small IB/HF shops >>> BB BO. Even if you get the summer at a BB and you'll have exposure to names of bankers and traders via the intranet directory, ultimately relevant experience is a big factor. I think there's also the potential of being over zealous with internal firm networking (there was a guy on another thread who didn't get a return offer at MO at a BB because his group's ego was bruised when he networked with bankers during the summer - even though they encouraged him to do so).
And there's really no stopping you from networking with bankers over the course of your year and next summer internship elsewhere, depending on the city you'll be in, your alumni base, and your own assertiveness to reach out to people.
Would an unpaid BB PWM internship be a good option? I don't have an offer but I can certainly reach out to a recruiter I met last year.
^I'm at a semi-target, another reason why I'm inclined to decline the offer.
Would I be better off with an unpaid PWM summer internship with ML?
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