New York or LA
Do you think New York or LA offers better opportunities for a career? If you were still building your career, single with few responsibilities which one would you go to? I'm familiar LA because I've lived there previously, visit often, and enjoy the general surroundings of Southern California for the matter. However, I'm not sure how well the real estate network there compares to that of New York. It seems like New York offers a dense concentration of RE shops and professionals all within a small vicinity, whereas LA is a bit more sprawling and some of the finance/re scene even spreads into OC/Newport Beach. Are the potential deals or experience that those in New York partake in, possibly more comple; or are they more or less the same?
If you were given the option which would you choose? Whether on the basis of competing jobs offers? MRED program? Other reasons???
Okay, I am NYC based and our firm has an LA office. Since my role is at the HQ level, I travel to all our office frequently (well, I did when I was able to travel.....). So with that background. Some points..
NYC and LA are polar opposites for both being big, 24-hr primary type int'l hubs. NYC is transit dependent and dense, LA is care dependent and sprawled. People, weather, culture, are all unique and different. If you like one, you may dislike the other, all depends, VERY personal.
On net, NYC has lots more HQ activity in RE and finance, generically speaking, that means more jobs. Both get people wanting to work there from everyone, so I would say equally competitive. LA has the OC close and NYC has NJ, similar secondary effects.
NYC is also part of a big train linked region with DC, Philly, and Boston as part of the 'region', this creates even a bigger density of firms/jobs. NYC really is the center of the world.
On a local basis, LA is probably a better market for real estate (as in the local/regional market). NYC is having issues and this pandemic will hurt it way worse. NYC will lose more people to Texas, Florida, North Carolina, etc. than LA will loose to Phoenix and Texas.
Taxes suck in both, CA is higher than NY, so if you move out of NYC you only have to pay state and no local taxes. I think you would live in the city, so probably as wash. Still, I think cost of living is worse in LA if you factor commute/car costs (hard to really say).
LAX sucks, Uber is only option in/out. EWR and JFK are actually good and LGA is getting better (better flights, train service, and Uber/taxis). This matters on if you fly a lot. But it is way, way cheaper and easier to fly ANYWHERE from NYC and you have Amtrak! This means a lot for me, I have to fly nationally and int'l often (when not in pandemic...).
In short, both have ups and downs. Lot's of personal preference at play. Still, I think NYC has the edge on jobs due to the global HQ effect, LA isn't even close on that front. But LA (especially if you add OC) is huge and has lots of HQ'd firms, just tend to be more regional than global.
So, if you want a more 'local' career in a huge city, I think LA is maybe better. If you want to work in the HQ of global markets, NYC is only real option. NYC local market is way more competitive in my opinion, too many brokers and small investors with competitive cash.
This is really well put.
To echo one of your points, speaking purely from an institutional standpoint, NYC and LA aren't remotely close.
A few years back I spoke with a partner of an LA-based institutional fund. He ballparked that about ~85% of all US real estate activity goes through NYC. While there are the CIM's of the world in LA, the vast majority of LA-based jobs are at satellite offices, boutique firms, or more entrepreneurial in nature.
Oh.. I should add my MRES/D recommendations for the cities (granted I know NYC better than LA, so consider my knowledge base)
NYC - Best - NYU or Columbia (if you go to MIT in Boston, its close, and I think just a 1 yr program, that is probably the best. If you can get into Wharton, its prob best in RE overall, and Philly is close)
LA - USC (great, great program) Honestly not sure about other MSRE/Ds in LA, but UCLA has a real estate center, Pepperdine is a great school, and I'm sure there are more, but really USC is the MSRE/D leader for the area..
I think both are flush with job opportunities and will provide you with runway to build your career. I would focus more on what kind of culture/environment you would see yourself being happy living in.
Anybody here familiar with Orange County particularly the job opportunities in the area?
Happy to discuss over PM as well. I compiled a list of debt opportunities in OC, am I missing anything? Thank you. https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/orange-county-ca-debt-roles-in-c…
To add a little perspective for this post, I would emphasize two things:
LA and NYC are so different from a vibe perspective, many people find both extremely polarizing. Visit ea. for 1 week+ to see if you really like it. I personally love LA--it's laid back, tons of eclectic groups of people, unparalleled access to nature, great weather, ridiculous Mexican food, countless A+ music and comedy venues.
Without an ounce of doubt, LA is inferior with respect to the quality and saturation of competitive talent. NYC is a melting pot for every Ivy League Managing Director wannabe, and probably the most competitive market on earth. LA is not. There is still high quality talent, but a TON of nepotism...if you are smart and have good work ethic it is much easier to stand out here.
Yes. Glad someone pointed this out.
I'm definitely concerned about NYC being more competitive than LA and see LA being an advantage. I've been to LA quite a bit and am fairly loyal to the west coast. Its been many years since I've been to NYC but it doesn't look like now is the best time to revisit.
What are your Ricky Rosay thoughts on the MRED in LA? Any comments on the USC grads you run into?
Hey, I know your comment wasn't to me, but I have a good buddy who recently graduated from the USC with a MSF. I know it's not the MSRED, but that was his undergrad major. He was on a 6th month analyst stint at a debt brokerage and now works at Morgan Stanley doing cmbs in LA (Century City location I believe).
Anecdotal I know, but at least you know where some of the grads end up.
USC is a solid program. Like most MRED programs, though, the quality of the student body is pretty mixed...lots of students with minimal RE experience, industry laterals, etc. In my experience, the strength of the USC program has been its networking reach...many shops in LA are old boys clubs where USC pedigree in some capacity (undergrad, MS, etc) will give you a bit of a leg up.
LA is cheaper, you can buy a pretty nice house in a very good school district for $2M (Irvine, San Marino, Arcadia)
Even if you want to live in new port beach or Beverly Hills, it would only cost you $3-5M for a nice house
Is this sarcastic?
Edit - I know I got hit with MS for this one, but was genuinely asking... LA is probably cheaper in more ways, but I didn't expect to the argument assuming it's discretely and materially better for a family based on paying $2M to live in a secondary market in Irvine, San Marino, or Arcadia, for school districts none the less. Is there not an equal or roughly equal value proposition in schooling and accordingly housing costs to be in Tenafly, for instance? Basically a similar or comparable commute as San Marino. If you choose Irvine your work options unless you want to face a massive commute to anything near Los Angeles are likely limited to that area. There are really high caliber firms/opportunities there, but your life is likely in that secondary market only.
People who live in Irvine also work in Irvine....do you have any idea how many companies are there in Irvine? Amazon google Facebook to begin, then PIMCO in new port beach which is right next to Irvine
Agree with many comments above, with the first being a great summary. About 7 years ago I was living in Chicago and made the decision to move to either NYC and LA. At the time, my brother lived (and still lives) in NYC and my best friend from college lived in LA. Ultimately I chose LA and couldn't have been more happy with my decision. A few things to add to the list:
Weather can be the deciding factor for many people when choosing between NYC or LA. NYC's winter is no joke, whereas here in LA I can go swimming in my outdoor pool anytime of the year. A nice sweater is all you need for the winter months. Makes life much easier with the warm weather.
Building off of Ricky Rosay's 2nd point regarding LA inferior competitive talent, LA also has an overall inferior pay compensation when compared to NYC. Many more top NYC shops will have a higher bonus (1x - 3x base) whereas the vast majority of top tier LA based shops top out much less. Certainly depends on base salary, but many times they are very equivalent, but then come year end, my NYC friends blow us LA guys out of the water. Carry seems to be equivalent for when you are experienced enough to get it.
The culture comments stated above are true. I've known people to leave both cities because they overall didn't like the vibe. NYC is more hustle and bustle whereas LA is more laid back. True personal preference, with some people loving both, or one, or neither.
NYC bars serve drinks until 4AM, LA bars (legally) serve drinks until 2AM. Might not seem that different, but people usually pregame and go out earlier here in LA. It takes a little getting used to if you were a degenerate like me in my party years. Results in drinking earlier.
Football starts early as fuck living in LA. 10AM on a Sunday is tough for a guy w/o kids.
This is so accurate! But I wouldn't take to mean the LA firms or people are less money hungry or hard working or anything like that, they just do it in a different style. Like NYC people can look like they are running from fire drill to fire drill (even if nothing is happening!!). And, they stay late at the office to prove a point, not really to get work done.
Of course, NYC people arrive in the office by 10am (unless your an analyst, then you get in early to get shit done before everyone arrives). In LA, people arrive by 7:00am to beat traffic (and well it's 10am in NYC... and I mean the world revolves around NYC, so of course they have to be in by 7:00am).
Is it possible for someone who loves every aspect of NYC to move to LA and love it there? I've visited many times and really appreciate the laid back lifestyle... but I also love the rushed pace here in New York.
Does this person exist or is it not possible?
I'm from the east coast originally and spent a lot of time in the major east coast cities (Boston, NYC and DC), and have been in LA for two years now. It is very different. You 100% have to be used to getting in the car for almost everything you want to do. The public transit is awful. That, to me, is the biggest difference, and the total lack of density out here. There are a few walkable areas, notably Santa Monica, but its so isolated from the rest of the city (at least 1hr drive to downtown without traffic).
Sure, possible, but I don't see it that often (unless like a west coaster is moving back from the east coast, that's different).
NYC'ers go to Florida who want to be by the beach and get a laid back lifestyle. The lower cost of living and zero state income tax more than makes up for the humidity. When NYC'ers go to LA they are like 'what the hell.. salaries are lower, taxes are higher, and its more expensive to live and drive around!!!'
Plus LA and California make NYC look like a libertarian, Ayn Rand paradise. Seriously, WTF is wrong with gov't out there. That said, LA is way better than SF/Bay Area, but still they don't call it the 'left' coast because of a map.
Wouldn't live in New York. LA all the way.
Is it because of lifestyle???
Yeah
If you guys were going into development does one city offer any edge over the other? Curious if that specific area makes a difference?
Additionally, anybody with experience completing developments in either of these cities or cities that are similar? LA is sprawling with many popular satellite cities, while NYC is dense and lots of building up.
What do you guys think of the dating scene in both?
Development in CA is arguably the most difficult place to develop in the country. You have an extremely active NIMBY community that takes advantage of the complex process required under CA environmental law (CEQA) to hijack projects and bury them in the costly/time consuming entitlement process. For context, going through a full Environmental Impact Report for 50+ unit projects or other larger deals costs at least $1M itself between consultant and legal fees. The risk profile, and level of discretion that lays in the hands of local officials to influence the project, is very high in LA. Pre-pandemic, I hadn't seen a MF development deal in LA that penciled above a 5% YOC in over 4-5 years.
LA and NYC girls are both A+. I think LA gets the edge. Unfortunately, a big chunk of good looking women in LA don't do shit and are "influencers," looking for their big break, etc. Finding an intellectual companion can be tough
With the higher costs associated do you think its becoming an area where institutional guys can better profit than boutique developers can?
Yeah a girl who has ambition and intelligence is kind of what I'm after. A pretty girl is good is always nice to have, but there's never a lasting chemistry with those relationships.
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I wouldn't choose on career opportunities, they're close enough. NY obviously has a lot more finance going on, but also has that many more people competing for it. When you adjust for supply/demand standpoint, they're roughly comparable.
The vibes and daily life in the two places is so different that you're likely to prefer one over the other. I'm much more of a NY personality. LA is always great for a visit but by day 4 the sunshine and the beach isn't special anymore, at least to me, and it starts to feel like a more average place. Meanwhile NY never gets boring, for me and a certain type of person.
Best part about this debate is how often there are different views but the same respect. I can’t be in NYC for more than three days complaining about the weather, trash and noise. I love the amount of people walking around every borough, but that truly freaks SoCal folks out at times haha. The quiet and loneliness of LA is the same as the NYC downsides in a sense.
Both are awesome places and I’d really go with where you most feel comfortable and happy. For me, that’s LA. Love that city .
El Ay
Making this very decision right now and would appreciate advice. Two opps are relatively similar in terms of comp and responsibility and geography is the deciding factor for me. I prefer LA over NY from a personal standpoint. Feel a bit happier - content there. However, I am very career driven (as are others here) and am highly attracted to NY for 1) if I exit, I believe I will have a wider range of exit opps that will pay more relative to LA 2) if I decide to pursue my own venture, NYC seems to be the hub for raising capital. Essentially, I don't want to turn down the potential career prospects that NY offers. I prefer LA over NY, but I also do like NY. I just don't like NY nearly as much as I like LA. If LA is a 10 for me, NY is probabaly a 7. I really don't want to sacrifice any career opportunities and advancement down the road. Happy in both cities, but happier in LA and would be happy settling in LA long term (not sure if I could same the same for NY). Nonetheless, Career is still my #1 priority. Also, this is for development.
I was in a similar spot recently and chose LA. Can't give advice on your exact situation but I'll walk you through how I thought about it.
There are cons to LA (homelessness, how spread out everything is, it can be harder to make friends as an outsider). But overall I'm happy with the choice I made. If weather, proximity to nature and living a healthy lifestyle are important to you, I think LA is the way.
I will caveat that my decision was easy because the best job offer I received was in LA. I'm not sure if I would take a lower-paying / lower-prestige job just to be in LA. Take the best opportunity you have.
I think that’s all great advice and probably think I will end up leaning in the same direction. Final thought: On this forum, I see many folks talking about how once they made they move to NY, their “visibility” increased dramatically and they are constantly receiving looks from headhunters. Would the same apply for LA?
To be completely honest, and to keep it short - the way that the government are running both NYC and LA is a complete shit show. If I were you I would consider moving to Miami with everything going on there. NYC is not worth it anymore. The city is not in its peak like it used to be. Maybe try applying for jobs in Miami. seems like an exciting time there right now with everything going on and a lot people moving. The Mayor knows what he is doing...
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