PWM/Private Bank industry lowdown- who has it?

I'm looking for anyone with experience either personally or through connections to give a run through of some of the top PWM firms (Goldman, ML, JPMorgan, MS, Deutsche, UBS, Credit Suisse, Citi, any others I forgot).

Specifically I want to know how their teams are set up (how many analysts, associates, bankers, etc), the role analysts play on the team day to day, advancement opportunity for analysts, compensation in NYC (base/bonus), and prestige in the industry. Which have the most client interaction for analysts, and which have the least? Is there one who is known for just using analysts for bitch work and cuts them loose at the end?

Comments (120)

Sep 22, 2010

generally, PWM is pretty similar across the board. Your success and prestige has little to do with your firm. It's all up to you to build your business. Again, most firms allow you to be an individual advisor or work within a group of a few advisors with a couple client associates. As an analyst, your rotate through various parts of PWM, then are generally assigned to an advisor or group.

As of now, Merrill's merger with BoA has gone horribly with respect to their wealth management division. Lots of Merrill advisors are jumping ship and taking those signing bonuses offered by other firms.

Advisors often go to other banks if there are compensation incentives

In terms of Private Banking, JP Morgan is hands down the most prestigious firm. They have teams that include various specialist - estate planners, bankers, portfolio managers, etc. Whatever a client needs help with --mortgage, trades, etc, they will talk to the specialist in that area.

Goldman also has a great PB, as well as Credit Suisse, Northern Trust...an MD at JP recently mentioned that he has gained many clients from Citi and US Trust (BoA).

Compensation is also similar for analyst across the board. You will get a larger bonus working PB

Best Response
Sep 22, 2010

I interned with JPM PB this summer. I can answer all of your questions except for the one on comp. All I know is analyst receive a 10K signing bonus, regardless of location. I will say JP Morgan has a great private bank. They offer a lot of great products and services to clients across the board - investments, capital advisory and estates.

The first thing people not familiar with the industry always mix up is the PB/PWM distinction. The distinction is only internal. Certain teams focus on high net worth individuals $2M+ in investible assets (PWM) and other teams service ultra high net worth $25M+ individuals. All of the teams work together and fall under the PB umbrella.

As far as organization goes, you have analysts, associates and bankers. In addition to that, you have estate advisory, capital advisory, and investors. Analyst and associates can specialize in any one of these areas, but most often they are supporting bankers. The bankers role is to bring in new business and communicate with clients on their needs/wants (whether it involves their portfolio, they need a line of credit, they want to create a trust, art appraisal, etc). Prospecting is definitely a big part of each analysts' job. Client interaction doesn't happen until you are an associate. Analysts have very little client interaction, unless they are very vocal about wanting to attend client meetings and they have gained the trust of the rest of the team to do so.

Analysts are given a lot of responsibility, but also have opportunities to be creative and make an impact. As far as advancement, after three years in the program, each analyst has an opportunity to move up to the associate level. I've heard its a pretty detailed performance review and a lot of analysts don't make the cut.

That's all I have. JPM PB is solid. A lot of smart people, good place to start if you are interested in sticking with wealth management LT. If you have anymore qs, pm me.

    • 7
May 10, 2016

saved.

    • 1
Jun 12, 2016

Does it mean that Analysts who do not make the cut to Associates are sacked?

Jun 13, 2016

yes

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Sep 24, 2010

Dr Fulton, just out of curiosity, were you in a regional office (i.e. Atlanta, Denver, Arizona) or NY/SF/LA?

Jun 13, 2016

Private banking a.k.a being a bitch to rich people

If you're personable and attractive, it goes a long way.

    • 2
Sep 25, 2010

Thanks a lot for all your insight guys. Anyone know typical pay (base+bonus) for analyst, associate and VP/Banker at each firm? How about typical hours per week?

Jun 13, 2016

i would guess market hours or a bit longer

Jun 13, 2016

It depends what kind of wealth management. If you are a brokerage/wirehouse, then you will track market hours. If you offer more comprhensive wealth management/private banking services (ie. wealth advisory, estate planning, capital advisory/lending, banking/deposits) in addition to strictly investments, your day will be a 3-4 hours longer (or more) than market because you have a lot more shit to deal with throughout the day, and your reviews and pitches are much more comprehensive. Especially if you're an intern.

PM me for more details

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Jun 13, 2016

Did BB PWM in the "Legacy" building in NY in between my sophomore and junior year. Typically worked from 9-6 but I wasn't being paid. I commuted about 2.5 hours round trip everyday, wasn't so bad.

Jun 13, 2016

9-6/7

Jun 13, 2016

So I am getting the vibe that even as a paid Junior there is no 5am to 1am IB type hours, which would make commuting an issue

Jun 13, 2016

I was doing 830-6 at BB PWM. Not that bad at all. Plus the office I was in loved lunch meetins so we had awsome lunches everyday

Jun 13, 2016

I have a friend that is doing BB PWM. He got a contract that called for 30 hours a week. He likes it. Takes Fridays off and goes on small trips and such. Pay isn't fantastic though.

Jun 1, 2012

bump - "Anyone know typical pay (base+bonus) for analyst, associate and VP/Banker at each firm? How about typical hours per week?"

Jun 13, 2016

PMW and IB have virtually nothing in common. PWM is a combination of three skill sets A. ER B. investment advice/portfolio theory and C. client smooze ie client service ie sales. ( I guess you could say IB MD's use skill set C on their potential clients, but on the analyst/associate level PWM has nothing in common with IB)

Hours are less than 12 per day and the intensity of deadline of IB is not there EXCEPT for occasions involving client smooze. Pay scale and bonuses are significantly less on a level by level comparison.

Jun 13, 2016

depending on the firm, the pay can vary.

the Investment Associate (starting position out of undergrad) gets paid a base of $55k at UBS private wealth + minimal bonus (depending on your group). I am not sure of pay of other comparable positions at other firms.

Jun 13, 2016

My hours are usually 7:30am to 9-10pm.

70K base, 10-50K bonus for analysts

Jun 13, 2016

50k bonus for 1st years...in this market?! really?

Jun 13, 2016

Private Banking and PWM have different client sizes...

PWM= client size $2-$25 mil
Private Banking= $25 mil and above

Jun 13, 2016

This market, probably lower, but who knows.

The S&P is up huge from its lows, and we make money on % of assets, not on deals or anything else. Client in/outflows are also a big factor.

Jun 13, 2016

Do analysts in PWM frequently work weekends?

Oct 8, 2012

Hi Guys - do you know much the JPM PB in non US geographies such as Singapore and HK? I am planning to join as a VP in technology space and wondering whats its like. I have heard a weird mix of very long hours (10-12/day + calls from home), crude on your face culture. Do you know much about employee benefits and bonus? Also, is there a hire and fire culture or that doesn't happen in JPM PB usually?

Jun 13, 2016
surferbarney:

Do BB pwm gigs, as a junior, typically take up weekends? Is it really just a 9-630ish M-F or has anyone pulled some Sat and sun hours as well

If you're pulling weekends for a PWM internship (most of which are unpaid), you're getting shafted. Even 6:30 PM during the week is pretty late for a PWM intern.

Jun 13, 2016
NorthSider:
surferbarney:

Do BB pwm gigs, as a junior, typically take up weekends? Is it really just a 9-630ish M-F or has anyone pulled some Sat and sun hours as well

If you're pulling weekends for a PWM internship (most of which are unpaid), you're getting shafted. Even 6:30 PM during the week is pretty late for a PWM intern.

I think he may be talking about the more formalized SA programs at top banks (GS, JP, DB). Those firms have OCR for those positions and pay interns relatively well.

Jun 13, 2016

Yea talking about nicely paid BB SA gigs

Jun 13, 2016
surferbarney:

Yea talking about nicely paid BB SA gigs

It's not 9-6:30 though haha so don't kid yourself. I work 6:45-7ish most days, longer hours in the winter, starting to shorten out now, but always in at 6:45am. I'm in Chi though, so you probably won't have to be in until 7:30ish in NYC if I had to guess.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Jun 13, 2016

within an office / team or on a desk?

Jun 13, 2016

?? shouldn't that be in your contract?

Jun 13, 2016

I always understood that depending on the bank, its very low first couple of years then based off of commissions.

Jun 13, 2016

i got a PB offer from a BB, 10k signing, 5k relocation, 60k base. end of year bonus isnt the same as banking, not quite sure exactly, but from word of mouth from 15-50k?

Jun 13, 2016

$15 - $50K in private banking?!? Good luck! Nearly fell off my chair reading that.

Jun 13, 2016

well thats why i said i wasnt sure... I only added the up to 50k because I've heard of analysts who were able to bring in some serious business (50mm+) on their own and recieved amazing bonuses. Granted thats far from the norm, but don't people on this board only want to hear about the best possible scenario?

should have been more clear, but what would you say the range is, and where do you get that info from?

Jun 13, 2016

I've heard 0-30k in private banking.

Jun 13, 2016

bump

Jun 13, 2016

Best option is to do a search. This has been discussed many times.

Jun 13, 2016

any further comments regarding pay?

Jun 13, 2016

It will help you land IBD interviews given the PWM internship was at another BB firm.

PWM is a very common stepping stone for current sophomores that are going to be future juniors and looking at a career in investment banking.

Jun 13, 2016

Just do your best to get an SA position next summer. Graduating with just the pwm on your resume will not look good to future employers.

Jun 13, 2016

What is your other option whitehep?

Jun 13, 2016

In europe the biggest PWM battle will be CS vs. UBS. After the law suit in USA, it lost a lot of PWM clientele to CS.

I think that during the recovery, which incidentally will be no short ordeal, we'll see some big shifts in IB hierarchy. BarCap - we'll see, got some good assets from Lehman, but still not sure. BAML - no chance, have friends working there who say its going down the pan.

Very interesting times ahead; few deals, more comp, potentially more specialisation.

Jun 13, 2016

I second this request.

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Right now this is a job. If I advance any higher in this company, then this would be my career. And um... Well, if this were my career, I'd have to throw myself in front of a train.

Jun 13, 2016

Not too sure about the case in US, but PWM is definately growing very rapidly in Asia. Noticed that buyside jobs in hedge funds or long-only funds are more sought after in this forum as opposed to buyside positions in PWM, but this is definately not so for the Asian job market.

Jun 13, 2016

That's probably because PWM is a faster growing industry in Asia than in the United States. Asian countries, China specifically, are beginning to experience newfound wealth and don't have a good existing infrastructure for private wealth management. Although I guess this doesn't explain why alternative investments aren't growing as quickly -- or are they?

People tend to be drawn to "what's hot."

--------
Right now this is a job. If I advance any higher in this company, then this would be my career. And um... Well, if this were my career, I'd have to throw myself in front of a train.

Jun 13, 2016

double post

Jun 13, 2016

only to get more responses if possible. new to the site.

Jun 13, 2016
nycsurf10:

only to get more responses if possible. new to the site.

fair enough

Jun 13, 2016

Dont do it. You wont build any useful skillsets if you work out of an office in sales/analysis on a team.
If you join the home office on a desk, different experience.

Jun 13, 2016

Poisons the well. Once you're PWM, you're not going to be able to switch to a more transaction-based group. Don't just do it for the BB business card.

Jun 13, 2016
WestCoastChimp30:

Poisons the well. Once you're PWM, you're not going to be able to switch to a more transaction-based group. Don't just do it for the BB business card.

Not necessarily true. Depends on how long you have been in PWM and what bank you are at. However, I would say that I wouldn't switch unless you are looking for a better work life balance/know some people that will give you money to manage.

Jun 13, 2016

I think you'd be safe to drop the CFP from the track. At least for the PE/HF stuff, it isn't needed as much. Now to stay in AM the CFP might be alright, but to elevate to the next level without MBA, the CFA is your best bet.

Just my two cents.

Jun 13, 2016

Ya, CFP is pretty much for financial planning. I would possibly add Private Banking to your list of exit opportunities. CFA is best bet as mentioned above.

Jun 13, 2016

in my case, pwm(intern) - am(analyst) - MBA - IB (associate)

Jun 13, 2016

is that an expected? or actual?

Jun 13, 2016

Can you shed some light on the difference between PWM and GWM?

Jun 13, 2016

Its my actual path, and PWM and GWM are basically the same thing,
only that PWM clients are much higher in net worth than GWM clients.
PWM, therefore provides more customized services whereas GWM offers its clients
a fixed line of products (customized vs mass-produced)

Jun 13, 2016

what is PMW and GMW?

Jun 13, 2016

5 year bump...wow

    • 1
Jun 13, 2016

Social skills, sales skills, and broad investment knowledge.

Jun 13, 2016

What bank is the largest and/or most recognizable? Is it as difficult as investment banking to break into?

Greed is Good.

Jun 13, 2016

According to Euromoney's annual Private bank and wealth management ranking 2010, which consider assets under management, profitability, ratio of clients to relationship managers and services offered, global private banking assets under management are down substantially YoY, from $11.8 trillion to $6.8 trillion.

Best private bank for ultra high net worth ($30m+) 2010. This table displays results of one category of the Private bank ranking.

Rank '10 Company Rank '09
1. JPMorgan 3
2. Goldman Sachs 2
3. UBS 1
4. Credit Suisse 6
5. HSBC 4
6. Citigroup 5
7. Pictet 8
8. Deutsche Bank 7
9. Rothschild 11
10. BNP Paribas 10

Got these from wiki... I think you need to subscribe to get the original version.

Personally, I think JPM and GS are tops along with NTRS if you're looking at a conservative place (big in Chicago).

At the end of the day, the services/products you offer to your clients are similar. What matters is the relationship with your client and if your pay is based on AUM or commission.

Not as difficult to get into as IBD, but not a cakewalk either. Keep in mind that the industry depends on relationships built on trust. Will a 50 year old that just sold his business for $30M trust a 22 year old to manage it? I think you get the point.... If you're interested, a PWM analyst program might not be a bad idea. I have friends at US Trust that are working on their MBA and/or CFA to move up the ranks.

Do a search on PB/PWM and you'll find all you need.

Jun 13, 2016

Trying to get them to invest in products that get you the highest commission. Full stop

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Jun 13, 2016

The more reputable firms don't just do what balooshi said. All the major banks have moved away from that model in the past 15 years and today it may even get you into legal and regulatory trouble if you make a recommendation that is inappropriate for a client.

JohnWall, put simply you have it correct. The adviser may assist with the entire investment strategy, specific product implementation, etc... it depends on what the firm's services are.

Jun 13, 2016

Well, PWM comprises a number of different things depending on the shop. Simply put, PWM is relationship building and management. You build a relationship with the client and, depending on the client's needs, you could advise him on how to plan for the long run, advise him on trading tips and strategies or just be there for research and execution. Ultimately, it depends on the structure of the relationship with the client.

Balooshi, to address your point, while there still are boiler room shops around, due to an increased scrutiny concerning fiduciary responsibility both under securities law and what the government may in fact try to do, high commission products are not always sold to clients if they don't understand them. I know of brokers that have been charged with all sorts of crazy shit because of their desire to do the wrong thing for their clients. Go Figure...

Justanothermonkey, pretty spot on. OP, if you have any questions on specifics regarding PWM, hit me up. My roommate does it at a smaller shop and I'm friends with the guys in my shop that do PWM so I can forward questions on and get answer for ya from the guys that do it.

Jun 13, 2016

As you said in the post, much of what BB PB does is wealth management, but other specific investment vehicles are created within the bank to help clients. For many CEOs of companies who use the PB, risk minimization considering huge exposure to their company's stock price is any issue. Some clients get help with employee stock ownership programs, liquidity issues, business valuations and sales, etc. Anything a client needs, the PB can offer it.

Jun 13, 2016

Depends on what clients. UHNW RM's who are managing great relationships can push north of 1mm. HNW RM's will on average be around 250 to 500k depending on what they bring in each year.

Jun 13, 2016

Top Banks will pay upwards of $1million to RMs. The industry is also growing very fast so lots of good salaries being thrown around.

Jun 13, 2016

Thanks for your answers. I don't understand when you say that the industry is growing very fast because I read an article saying that in the US and Europe the business is now matured, and the growth is located only in Asia.

Jun 13, 2016

I would not say that the industry has matured in the U.S. and Europe. But it's very easy to see why Wealth Management is a growing industry in Asia, a region that is experiencing tremendous GDP growth and a bourgeoning upper-middle class and upper class. In other words, Asian people are getting richer, so they need people to manage their newly found wealth, thus an increase in private bankers.

Going back to the U.S. and Europe, there may not be a rapidly growing number of wealthy people, but the industry is indeed growing as it becomes more specialized. There are now people who are experts for dealing with every part of one's wealth -- estate issues, tax issues, alternative investments, credit needs, etc.

Jun 13, 2016

As always, Tan explains it better. Read this. Very good insight into the industry.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/906b76f4-eb94-11df-bbb5-...

Jun 13, 2016

Thank you, very interesting article !
Any tips on the day to day jobs ?

Jun 13, 2016

It depends entirely on the role. If you're in RM, then you'll have a very mixed day. You can be travelling one day, and meeting clients to cold-calling (happens a lot at some of the more aggressive desks, e.g. JPM, Barclays and UBS) or you could be just meeting with investment specialists (the names for these guys changes between Banks) to make sure you know what's happening in the market.

If you're in portfolio construction and structured products, then you could be doing a lot of modelling or meeting with legal to make sure the products are up-to-date and match the 'view' of the Bank.

Research is similar to the sell-side. You work on creating a 'view'. This involves meeting companies, company calls, excel grunt work, etc...

Finally, if you're in due diligence (Alts or mutual funds) then you could be doing a lot of analytical work. A lot of the more senior guys, do a lot of visits to meet managers.

Jun 13, 2016

Yeah i'm realy interested in an RM role, i don't want to sit in front of a screen 12h a day.
I wanted to know what do you do as a junior (=analyst, associate) and the differences with a more senior role.

Jun 13, 2016

Not in industry, second-hand info

The reason people bash it so much is because there is some sucking-up required and it's service-oriented, PWM is by no means a bad route to go, and as I was reading through the threads on here someone posted a number of exit ops that can come after a stint in PWM. Although, you do have those consulting opportunities which probably will give you far better exit ops than a PWM position will. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I'm close haha

Jun 13, 2016

The honest answer is that your experiences in PWM will vary wildly from position to position, as your role depends on the team you are with. If you are correct in your description and doing that type of work, it sounds as though you will be working with group that manages their own custom portfolios, discretionary account management, for clients.

By the by, that's a pretty nice gig for PWM, and is not too shabby at all. That allows you to move into more traditional AM roles as well into the Porfolio Manager space if you so choose to.

To the last question, your answer should not be based around exit ops and B-School, but what you want to do with your life. If you want to do porfolio management, the PWM gig (assuming that you are correct in the job description) might be your best shot and you dont' necessarily need to do the b-school route. If you want to do PE, the restructuring advisory position would be beneficial and you would need to get your MBA. If you feel like running the Fed printing press, then work at the economic consulting firm and do a PhD instead.

Jun 13, 2016

It's in the investment strategy group, if that helps paint a better picture.

I am not exactly sure what kind of track I want to pursue, but I know if I do PWM my options are limited.

It's comforting to know that the position seems like a decent one though.

Any other thoughts?

Jun 13, 2016

It's a good starting gig.. investment analysts are the ones who make investment recommendations on portfolios.. sort of like a portfolio manager but on a smaller scale.. i know that when wholesalers speak to PWM teams they would much rather speak to the analyst instead of the advisor

Jun 13, 2016

Understand what PWM team you will be working with if possible

There are thousands of advisors and teams out there, but understand that <20% of advisors control 80% of all the money.

More AUM = more sophisticated investment strategies

Also, your analyst work at a boutique PWM firm will be much more valued than at a BB where they can just pull their research from the equity research and strategy divisions inside the bank.

Jun 13, 2016

Anyone available through PMs? Since it is different firm to firm, knowing which one it is would allow you to evaluate the opportunity better.

Thanks

Jun 13, 2016

...

Jun 13, 2016

Huh ?

Jun 13, 2016

You're probably better off asking specific questions here. There's very little chance (read: zero) that someone is somehow going to figure out who you are because of your discussions on WSO (unless you have personal info up). You'll have a lot better chance of getting the info you want because a lot more people will see the questions you ask here versus PMing a person or two and hoping you hit gold.

Jun 13, 2016

Not sure why you'd want to do this now. You will have to go through a few years of being an analyst before actually becoming a wealth manager.

Jun 13, 2016

foot in the door with a large firm, potentially transfer to IBD/AM division. company name would look good on resume for other jobs and possibly b school.

it really comes down to getting typecast as doing valuation work for financial reporting, which is the majority of my work.

Jun 13, 2016

Not to mention PWM seems like a totally different direction you are going in finance... Unlike valuation/advisory/restructuring your technical skills won't be what drives your day-to-day work life. It will be a stronger focus on talking to clients and putting up with their BS. From what I've seen investing almost takes a back seat to clients. For instance, they would prefer someone with modest returns who is always available to talk than one with abnormal returns and little contact.

I have no idea where you are coming from and have only interned and networked with people in the PWM industry but it does NOT seem like a very fulfilling position for people who enjoy more finance heavy work. That being said, if you still want a little bit of finance/investing and a lot of customer relations work it is a good career.

Jun 13, 2016

nycsurf can you tell me in 3-5 bullet points what visions you have of this work?

You may also be highly overvaluing the IBD/AM transfer potential as skill-set specifically obtained through a junior-relationship manager job @ BB PWM (the only job available to you likely) provides 0 capability overlap.

Jun 13, 2016

thanks for responses...

DurbanDiMangus...
1. support senior staff (probably more admin) with research/analysis based on client needs
2. build presentations for potential clients
3. first line of contact with clients for the advisors you support

another question... if anyone has worked for GS, MS, Deutsche or any other BB in PWM, can you share your experiences?

Jun 13, 2016

i did work for DB/UBS/CS PWM and it seemed like the new financial advisors were:

  1. Supporting senior staff in almost all administrative work, talking to clients, meeting with them (in the office) and increasing client base through cold calling and chasing leads from current clients. You do some research and analysis but they mostly leave that up to the guys who already earned their CFA.
  2. They did build presentations for potential clients but it was all programmed so that you just had a) find the figures you were using (Portfolio Current Value, Level of Risk Aversion, etc) and b) plug them into the system and it would run it for you and spit out a slideshow. Nothing too creative here, simply plug and hit Accept 10 times.
  3. You will definitely be the first line of contact, most time senior members are not even in office, out meeting clients for lunch/dinner and you're stuck answering phone calls like his secretary.

My whole point is that while it is good work and you make decent $$ while doing it, it didn't seem (at least to me) all that stimulating of work.

Jun 13, 2016

I interned at a ML PWM office for a year in '08 when the market got owned.

Like what was said before, you are doing more marketing for your group to get clients than focusing on the actual investments. You are going to have to deal with people who have little awareness of the market, and explain to them why their IRA is going in the dumps at the same time they are cursing your existence.

Transferring from PWM to IBD will be tough. If you are thinking AM then a product role would be a possibility.

Realize you are getting away from a financial role and going towards sales if you go this route.

Jun 13, 2016

To be honest its really really hard to transfer from PWM to any other part of a firm once you are there. Everything mentioned above is true, you don't develop a real skill set outside of being able to sell what the firm wants and they know that when looking at people internally.

Jun 13, 2016

Which are the branches...aka are they the Private wealth branches or a normal WMA branch?

Jun 13, 2016

From everything that you just said, I would go with the first offer. You probably won't get much out of the 9-5 job anyways. The unpaid aspect and lack of wanting to work in PWM just solidifies this reasoning.

Jun 13, 2016

Take first option, spend your free time networking or at second internship. The right hand doesn't have to know what the left is doing...

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