Question about Ambiguous parts of Networking

2020econgut
Rank: Monkey | banana points 59

Once you get on a call with someone at a firm and ask questions about the bank or fund, what do you typically do? I understand you generally want to ask for a referral to speak with someone else but when do you start talking about applications?

As in, say I talk to 3-4 people at a bank, do I shoot them an email saying I applied once I formally submit an application or do you ask something different on the phone prior? Essentially, what's the best way to get the first round interview?

(yes I understand you want to make genuine relationships and that's been my primary goal so far but of course I am considering getting the interview)

Comments (167)

Feb 20, 2018
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Feb 20, 2018
verycuriousmonkey:

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/want-to-get...

I have read the post. I guess I want just to be a bit more specific particularly because now the recruiting cycle is so crazy.

Essentially, do I do this 1- after I submit my app, 2- after talking to a few people or just 1, and/or 3- with all of my contacts at the bank or just one or two. Also, would it be acceptable to do this in an email because I feel its a waste of their time to get on a second phone call with them to essentially just ask this question.

Recruiting dynamics have changed given the crazy 2019 SA cycle so I am trying to get updated info

Feb 20, 2018

This is what I would do:

  1. Submit app
  2. Get on the phone with someone from the firm/team. Ask questions, express interest, and then at the end (assuming the call went well), state that you are really interested in their summer analyst recruiting process and ask how you can best position yourself, given the crazy recruiting cycle.
  3. Profit.

Example: "Thanks again Joe the DeutscheBro, you've been really helpful. I wanted to let you know that I am very interested in Deutsche, and have submitted my app online. Given the hectic recruiting cycle these days, I was wondering if you have any advice on how I can best position myself to get a first round interview. Thanks."

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Feb 20, 2018

1) Build a connection
2) Explain your goal for the call
3) Ask for advice
4) Ask for referrals, then ask for more referrals

If they like you, they'll steer you internally towards an interview

Feb 22, 2018

I've personally found it most beneficial to cultivate a connection prior to formally applying. For me it was:

  1. Formal/ Informal reach out to pick off the right person for a coffee, ensure you're prepared and presentable with good questions and leave a good impression.
  2. Formally apply and when you get the receipt forward to your new friend purely as an FYI that you're looking to join which puts the ball in the court to be helpful or not.
  3. Benefit

9/10 if you handle the initial informal approach properly that person will put in a decent word or interest you to more folks on the team informally and gives you a good leg up going into a process.

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Feb 23, 2018
creb12984:

I've personally found it most beneficial to cultivate a connection prior to formally applying. For me it was:

  1. Formal/ Informal reach out to pick off the right person for a coffee, ensure you're prepared and presentable with good questions and leave a good impression.
  2. Formally apply and when you get the receipt forward to your new friend purely as an FYI that you're looking to join which puts the ball in the court to be helpful or not.
  3. Benefit

9/10 if you handle the initial informal approach properly that person will put in a decent word or interest you to more folks on the team informally and gives you a good leg up going into a process.

Two questions:

In regards to coffee. So it seems like it's just not going to be possible given the recruiting cycle for me to make trips to NYC to actually meet people because I have an internship in DC right after finals and its incredibly difficult for me to balance work/ecs to go to NYC during the school year. Would just getting on phone calls being ok, and then "making the ask " later on through email be acceptable?

Second, is the goal to meet as many people as possible/get referrals to calls with other people or is it just reach out to 1 or 2 people at each bank and really hope they pull for me? If it's the former, when I want to ask "how to best position myself for a first round interview" who among the people I talked to do I choose? Is it just the one or two people I thought I had the best convos with, the highest up people, any specifics?

I apologize for this overanalytic stuff but sometimes this can get confusing. I genuinely appreciate the help.

Feb 23, 2018
  1. For sure if it's impossible to cultivate informal coffee meets in person you can go for phone calls. I'd just try to linkedin and cold reach out or be introduced to guys best you can then hit some for a quick chat to learn more about the firm and their role as well as their path there. You assume most may blow you off but you'll get a few on the phone, you'll ask a couple of thoughtful and well informed questions and leave a good impression when they hear you've applied to something formally.
  2. I would say the goal should be to cast the widest net possible. If you reach out to 10 guys, let's say you'll get 3 to talk to you, 2 will be nice and 1 will remember you when they see your resume. As far as following up when you enter a more formal process I would signal out the guy(s) you gelled the best with over anyone else - increases the odds they'll stick their neck out for you.

don't apologize - happy to try to help and good luck.

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Feb 23, 2018

I've found that connecting on something outside of work helps me. It also gives an "excuse" to check up. For example if you guys are big Knicks fans you can quickly reach out to them about whatever problem the Knicks are having that week. If you're both big on travel you can reach out saying "hey Im heading to (insert area) and ask if they have any tips. Stuff like that. From my limited experience is that while most guys like their jobs, they also enjoy talking about their hobbies/interests. Some of the older guys on here can talk about what resonates with them when younger people reach out.

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Feb 23, 2018

Follow up with them every few months or so

Feb 23, 2018
MonopolyMoney:

Follow up with them every few months or so

This.

In my experience, networking is never about "sticking out", it's about being in front of these guys at the "right time".
You want to stay in touch with them, because there will be a point where they decide it might be time to bring someone on board, and if you happen to follow up around that time, they are going to - at the very least - interview you.

Feb 23, 2018

This is basically how CRE brokerage works from a business model standpoint.

Best Response
Feb 23, 2018

It will happen as you get older. Right now you're just trying not to be wierd. If you return the favor down the road you'll be a master. Just try and talk to the person like a human being and you will be fine.

Masters in Finance HQ - The #1 site for everything related to the MSF degree!
MSFHQ

    • 5
Feb 23, 2018

Not be weird is definitely key. I don't want to sound like I'm pestering them or trying to get in their pants.

Feb 23, 2018

I think you captured what he meant perfectly.

Feb 23, 2018
TNA:

Just try and talk to the person like a human being and you will be fine.

That might be difficult for the members of this forum.

"There's nothing you can do if you're too scared to try." - Nickel Creek

    • 1
Feb 23, 2018

Be cool. Literally. He/she (hopefully not both) was at one time the same as you trying to land a gig. Make small talk during an info call/meeting. You actually get further by connecting on a real level (vs. talking real estate finance/business). One of my mentors once told me he would do deals with a new client and they would bring their wives to dinner...they wouldn't discuss real estate once during the dinner. He simply wanted to get a feel for the guy and what he stood for. Thought it was pretty sound advice but what do I know.

Feb 23, 2018

I agree, it can be a bit awkward. I'm in the process of being laid off, so I've been networking a decent amount recently. I've had a few phone calls w. people I only "knew" from LinkedIn and also a couple in person meetings. You want to take advantage of the time and let them know you're interested in their company /a job, etc but not be weird about it. Like anything, it gets easier the more you do it. I also agree w. finding some common ground. It'll help that person remember you down the road as well.

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Feb 23, 2018

yea its tough but necessary. I think the best way is just to be honest with them and tell them you need a hand breaking through into the industry. You can kinda judge and see if he/she has the power to do something or make an intro.

Feb 23, 2018

I think the biggest issue is standing out. I'm sure I am one of many to reach out to these guys and I am sure they are out and about often at events such as ones at like graduate programs.

I am going to do what others said and try to find an interest in common.

Feb 23, 2018

OMG me and my betchesss talk about guy problems like this all the time. Just blow him after the coffee you slut!

I AM THE LIQUOR

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Feb 23, 2018

I usually try not to follow-up the initial meeting with an ask the next time I contact them. Advice that I frequently get is to do the routine "thanks for your time" follow-up, then monitor what their company is doing and shoot them a congratulatory e-mail/letter when they close a deal. It keeps you in mind and helps you stand-out from the other guys just asking for shit.

I come from down in the Valley, where Mr. when you're young, they bring you up to do like your daddy done.

    • 1
Feb 23, 2018

Currently doing what you're doing and when I started networking, I legit had the same thoughts as you so I completely feel you and it can be frustrating. Also my networking experience is from a CRE perspective, not banking, but I think they definitely overlap. Hopefully my perspective can be of value to you:

However, when reaching out to guys, I feel I'm just doing the "cliche" thing everyone else is.

The nice thing is that most of the people your reaching out to did the same exact thing. You also pretty much are doing what everyone else is doing but the importance of networking isn't the act of doing it or the act of reaching out itself, the importance is about having quality conversations with people in your desired profession. I know I struggled with this when I started out - volume and standardization. You're obviously you're going to standardize a cold-email template, build out an excel tracking sheet to standardize when you "follow up and touch base", largely standardize how you go about targeting people, send emails when a deal closes etc etc etc BUT... you absolutely cannot standardize a conversation. This may seem obvious but I know when I started out I was approaching calls like a fucking mission where I was trying to conquer the world but once I chilled out and just focused on having a normal conversation, my calls starting going better and things happened that I'll discuss below. I also think I struggled with the concept of volume, I always thought it was part of the goal to "talk to as many people as people" like the more people I network with the better the job I'm doing. Obviously volume is helpful but I've realized that the volume is really to increase the amount of opportunities to have a conversation that goes well. I mean think about, all the friends we have weren't made over some standardized approach to making friends but rather just a simple conversation that revealed a mutual interest or a mutual activity, it wasn't mechanical or automatic, it was just human. You want to increase the amount of opportunities to have these quality conversations.

So how do I stand out and actually develop a professional relationship instead of everyone who is doing the same yet might have the experience or advance degree?

I think this goes back to my earlier point about try standardizing a conversation. I honestly don't focus on "standing out" now, I focus on having a high quality conversation and when possible, showcasing what I believe to be my credentials or value-adds. There's no one formula for "standing out" just as there isn't a formula for making friends or anything else socially. You just really have to be yourself, not awkward as fuck, and super respectful of people's time. The rest will come naturally with time and effort (unless you're incredibly boring or incredibly awkward ). When I stopped trying to "stand out", my networking made some progress, and I actually made some really solid connections. Which brings my next point:

Don't underestimate the power of a few guys' really pulling for you, maybe this is more so the case In CRE but I've been able to establish a few high quality, almost mentor-like relationships with a few guys' in CRE and it has blown open some doors for me. I obviously run through motions of staying in front of as many people as possible but having a few people really pulling for you can open some doors in my opinion. And I think these few relationships that turned out really well are a function of a few things:

1) Pay it forward Train - I think it's pretty easy to get a sense of the level of help you're going to get from someone pretty early in to a conversation. Some people just don't have the time which is fine so still follow up, be super respectful, and value the time they give you. But I think with time you can tell guys who just are much more on the "pay it forward" train, just the way they talk and interact, it's very obvious they would be much more willing to go out of their way for you. I think investing extra time & effort into these guys has a better payoff.

2) Mutual Interest - I swear some of the best networking calls I've had either consisted of listening to someone talk about an interest of theirs for 15 minutes straight or talking about random stuff we had in common that just came up during the conversation. I use to always try to "steer" conversations back to the subject of business or the role they are in but realized to just let the conversation flow and where possible probe for more information and if you find a mutual interest run with it.

3) Actually Give a Shit - Ever talk to someone from school or a peer and you can just tell they don't give a shit or are only talking to you to get something out of you? I mean the same shit applies to networking, obviously the person knows you're reaching out for mostly one reason and it's usually a one-sided relationship from a benefit perspective but actually being an active listener in a conversation and actually caring about what the other person has to say, I think can go a long way. When I first started cold-emailing I think I went into every call or coffee chat with the hope the conversation would benefit me or get me a resume drop or get me intro'd to more people but once I started approaching a call with the mindset "I want to get to know this person" - Honestly my calls just starting naturally going better. Again, this may seem obvious to some but I think it's a mistake people make early on.

Well hopefully this helps in some way and if not, oh well.

Good luck out there!

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Feb 23, 2018

Remember this motto: I work with people not companies.

This is especially true in real estate. Some of your best networking comes from people you've worked with. So try to be human at work too.

    • 1
Feb 23, 2018

Holiday party rules:

  1. Be friendly to the boss
  2. Have a few drinks and mingle, be polite and positive at all times
  3. Stop drinking and go home when coworkers begin to look attractive

26 Broadway
where's your sense of humor?

Feb 23, 2018

This is a good question. Can anyone elaborate?

So you meet a few 100 people? Then you expect to get an interview? From my experiences so far, I feel the "networking" that people mention is more of a reflection of an alumni network.

Usually, if you're trying to network to help your chances, the people you will come in contact with are in the same position you are in..

Feb 23, 2018
carbon:

This is a good question. Can anyone elaborate?

So you meet a few 100 people? Then you expect to get an interview? From my experiences so far, I feel the "networking" that people mention is more of a reflection of an alumni network.

Usually, if you're trying to network to help your chances, the people you will come in contact with are in the same position you are in..

to answer this--yes, the majority of "networking" that people do comes from the alumni network (mind you its still networking, and probably the best way to go about it if you have a large alumni network). Alumni networks are easier to find and be able to tap into (through linkedin, or through your school), and people are more likely to help out people that are from their alma mater (especially from a non-target school...everyone wants their school to be more populated on the street)

To answer the OP, i believe that networking is generally used for people to get their foot in the door. Differentiating oneself among thousands of applicants is nearly impossible (and why getting interviews from companys websites is rare), but if you have someone currently employed with the firm vouch for you, your opportunity for an interview goes up SIGNIFICANTLY. I dont think networking connections will ever be able to straight up get you a job (unless lloyd blankfien is in your network), but it gives you that chance to prove yourself to the firm, whereas if you are from a non-target you may have never gotten that chance (or if your GPA is low, no prior experience, etc). Networking is enormous for landing the interview, but after that I believe it is mostly on you.

Feb 23, 2018

Glad someone asked this..
I would love to hear more concrete networking examples that were not accidental.. (Maybe a new thread should be networking examples)..
I am quite good at the "spontaneous" networking. However I suck dramatically at the "forced" networking.
Example: At one party, I met several folks, two of whom turned around and got me interviews at their respective firms within the month. I was offered a job at one of those two firms.

HOWEVER, I don't understand that Alumni networking mechanics, or what I refer to as "forced" netwroking. While an undergrad, it was sorta cute; I emailed a couple of Alums and they met me for coffee etc.. Didn't lead anywhere.
But, it just feels so forced and fake to go through the Alum database and write them an email etc..

How do people "network" with their Alums?

Feb 23, 2018

Thank you so much for the replies. So in general, how many alums per company should you have contact with before you would think it's gonna help you? Also, if the help stops after getting the interview, does it still make sense to call people in the firm once you get the interview? I'm still not really sure what the chances are that someone you contacted randomly would land you an interview? Would they even bother to help or do they have a say in this?

Feb 23, 2018

I'll have a punt.

///Thank you so much for the replies. So in general, how many alums per company should you have contact with before you would think it's gonna help you?

see how (1) well you can network (2) how much you want to work for them (3) how many contacts you have.

///Also, if the help stops after getting the interview, does it still make sense to call people in the firm once you get the interview?

depends. (1) do you know enough about the company to talk about it without enquiring further?

///I'm still not really sure what the chances are that someone you contacted randomly would land you an interview?

depends. (1) your contact is the head of the equities office and likes you very much. (2) or your contact is a middle manager who is more concerned about exiting the firm than helping newbies out.

///Would they even bother to help or do they have a say in this?

see above.

///and also, when you apply to a firm, should you send an email telling the contacts you used to call that you're applying?

depends. (1) do they like you or not? (2) do they have the power to help? RL story: great friend of mine likes me lots but has no 'hiring power' (hes not a manager) so despite him (1) liking me (2) him talking to HR might be nice, but has a lower probability on helping your app.

///I always see that you should send "I want to see how I can best position myself for an interview at your firm". What is this really literally asking for? advice on application?

it's what it's asking for. however, it's really in-your-face. think of when you'd use it. are you the DB that asks within 10 minutes of meeting someone "can you get me an interview?" or are you capable of presenting your accomplishments so that they ask you for it? maybe you need to use this sort of question to egg them on without asking them directly (which not many people are comfortable at doing).

///Usually, if you're trying to network to help your chances, the people you will come in contact with are in the same position you are in..

I think you're going to the wrong places.

/// I'm just curious, through what channel does networking really affect the results?

Depends. i read somewhere that 80% or less of jobs are filled by direct application.

Feb 23, 2018

and also, when you apply to a firm, should you send an email telling the contacts you used to call that you're applying? I always see that you should send "I want to see how I can best position myself for an interview at your firm". What is this really literally asking for? advice on application?

Feb 23, 2018

If you are doing what you say you are, then you are doing all the right things. The best way to start networking is to get on your unversity's alumni directory and just start e-mailing every person in IB, PE, HF, AM, etc for an informational interview. But, to break it down and make it somewhat of an easy formula, heres my thoughts/advice on networking:

1) Ask a friend who has graduated from your university for their login information for the alumni directory and do a search of people in IB, PE, HF, AM, etc and send out emails asking for informational interviews.
2) Ask you parent's, your friends parents, and your friends who they know if finance, and start thinking about anyone you remotely know that is connected to someone in finance and ask to be connected to them....then send an email asking for an informational interview
3) Sit down and write down a list of every club, organization, group of friends, etc that you have been involved in back from high school and start finding out who those people know in finance.
4) Talk to any finance, econ, etc professor you have had in college about your desire to get into finance and ask them if they know anyone or would be able to connect you
5) Go on linkedin and in the search box, put companies instead of people and just start plugging in names of banks, firms, etc and see who in your network knows someone at different firms and then ask them to connect you (this only works if you have a good linkedin/have a lot of connections)
6) Talk to past superiors at internships you have had in finance (if you have had any), tell them what you are thinking about and ask them if they would connect you.

You basically need to knock on every single door you can and cast your net as wide as possible. If you do this, I promise it will pay off. It worked for me. Let me know if you have any other questions.

XX

Feb 23, 2018
Pike:

If you are doing what you say you are, then you are doing all the right things. The best way to start networking is to get on your unversity's alumni directory and just start e-mailing every person in IB, PE, HF, AM, etc for an informational interview. But, to break it down and make it somewhat of an easy formula, heres my thoughts/advice on networking:

1) Ask a friend who has graduated from your university for their login information for the alumni directory and do a search of people in IB, PE, HF, AM, etc and send out emails asking for informational interviews.
2) Ask you parent's, your friends parents, and your friends who they know if finance, and start thinking about anyone you remotely know that is connected to someone in finance and ask to be connected to them....then send an email asking for an informational interview
3) Sit down and write down a list of every club, organization, group of friends, etc that you have been involved in back from high school and start finding out who those people know in finance.
4) Talk to any finance, econ, etc professor you have had in college about your desire to get into finance and ask them if they know anyone or would be able to connect you
5) Go on linkedin and in the search box, put companies instead of people and just start plugging in names of banks, firms, etc and see who in your network knows someone at different firms and then ask them to connect you (this only works if you have a good linkedin/have a lot of connections)
6) Talk to past superiors at internships you have had in finance (if you have had any), tell them what you are thinking about and ask them if they would connect you.

You basically need to knock on every single door you can and cast your net as wide as possible. If you do this, I promise it will pay off. It worked for me. Let me know if you have any other questions.

All of this.

Then when you do set up meetings ask them personal questions (e.g. how did you get to where you are?, what advice do you have for me?), and don't ask for anything - let them talk about themselves. The goal here is to get the person to like you, setting up (in their mind) a mentor relationship. When you establish this rapport, ask them if they know anyone else that might be able to give you advice in XXX field/industry; repeat and build network.

Feb 23, 2018

Everything said here is great so far. One thing I'd add, make sure to go for the family connections (if your parents are professionals that is) first.

I started by getting my parents to send out an email which I wrote to their contacts in finance saying i was looking for a job in capital markets/banking with a list of places I was applying and straight up asking if they could help me get an interview. This worked well because of the rapport my parents had already established with those people.

Just some food for thought--it's a dog eat dog world out there, use whatever resources you have.

Feb 23, 2018

Thanks for the help...one thing I'm still unsure about is the follow-up. I've had some great phone interviews, but how do you follow-up on those? I'm trying to find a way of not letting these conversations be a one-time exchange, but I'm not really sure how to do that without being a nuisance...

  •  Feb 23, 2018

best thing to do is to call (if you think you sound good on the phone) or drop an email (especially with super busy alums that are hard to reach) and ask for an informal meeting (breakfast chat, lunch) to learn more about their industry. Meeting face to face is critical to get people to like you. Let them bring up any job offers, and if it doesn't happen, just arrange to stay in touch, and then send an email update of what you have been doing every 6 months or so.
If you really get along and the alum is close to your age, maybe you can even become buddies, hand out together etc. I know people that got jobs that way.

Feb 23, 2018

So I shouldn't start off by asking some vague question (why does the _____________ at GS function like __________________) but should ask directly for a meeting? Is this ok?

Feb 23, 2018

I'd imagine it'd be better warming up to the direct question for a meeting first. Introduce yourself, ask a few questions and then be very appreciative and thank them and then ask them some more questions + ask for a meeting the next time around would be my suggestion.

Feb 23, 2018

I dont think it is bad at all to ask questions about the person's job and how it has impacted this/her life. You basically want to make it an information interview. Just get as much information about the industry, business, etc, and from there things usually build up (if you two hit it off) into him/her recommending you for a position or I have heard of instances where someone even created a position for someone he/she liked (I would imagine that is a relatively rare event).

Feb 23, 2018

Always contact asap. If you are busy that is fine. They know people have lives. But what can you have that is more important than networking? You take your finals to get good grades, which you hope will be enough to get an interview.

If you have the founder of a firm ready to talk or an alumni at a BB or whatever it is, you set time aside for them. That is how you expedite the recruiting process. Your result on that exam means dick compared to the result of your conversation with an DIRECTOR/MD/CEO.

Do not contact him at this point b/c he is not stupid and will put two and two together. When you see him you simply say "hey, its great to finally meet you. I wish we could have gotten together sooner." he will probably say "yea no worries" and than thats it. If he says, "yea that would have been nice" than you say "yea sorry about that, finals week was extremely hectic but I am glad I finally got to meet you"......

Feb 23, 2018

thanks for the help

Feb 23, 2018

Probably should play it safe but I have worked in a few start ups under the main guy and chances are that your last phone calls were a few in hundreds for the day and after a week there is no chance in hell he'll remember you called.

Feb 23, 2018

If you want it bad enough, you'll dig through a mountain of shit for that one kernel of corn.

Feb 23, 2018

yah it really can suck sometimes... just keep at it... persistence is key

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
Feb 23, 2018

always expect the worst and work at it. You will get a break one day

Feb 23, 2018

It is frustrating at times, but you just gotta be persistent....

I've had quite a few people tell me that they admired my persistence when we finally ended up meeting/talking after they didn't return my e-mails or postponed a few times. It even seems like some people purposefully ignore you the first few times just to see how bad you actually want to talk to them.

Feb 23, 2018
downtown22:

It is frustrating at times, but you just gotta be persistent....

I've had quite a few people tell me that they admired my persistence when we finally ended up meeting/talking after they didn't return my e-mails or postponed a few times. It even seems like some people purposefully ignore you the first few times just to see how bad you actually want to talk to them.

Quick question: How did u end up talking to them bud when they ignored u the whole time? Did u cold call them then?

Feb 23, 2018

Quick question: How did u end up talking to them bud when they ignored u the whole time? Did u cold call them then?

Just keep e-mailing. E-mail, wait a week or two, then e-mail again, etc.... Although at some point you just have to know when to cut your losses and give up. Not everyone is going to be willing to help out... just focus on the ones that will.

I never cold-called... but I guess it could be worth a shot.

Feb 23, 2018
downtown22:

Quick question: How did u end up talking to them bud when they ignored u the whole time? Did u cold call them then?

Just keep e-mailing. E-mail, wait a week or two, then e-mail again, etc.... Although at some point you just have to know when to cut your losses and give up. Not everyone is going to be willing to help out... just focus on the ones that will.

I never cold-called... but I guess it could be worth a shot.

And normally after how many emails, did these so called 'patience tester's used to get back to you? also, if uve emailed someone 3 or 4imes, and they still havent gotten back to u, fair to conclude that its a lost cause right?

Feb 23, 2018

Often your tasks will be many,
And more than you think you can do.
Often the road will be rugged
And the hills insurmountable, too.
But always remember,
The hills ahead
Are never as steep as they seem,
And with Faith in your heart
Start upward
And climb 'til you reach your dream.
For nothing in life that is worthy
Is ever too hard to achieve
If you have the courage to try it,
And you have the faith to believe.
For faith is a force that is greater
Than knowledge or power or skill,
And many defeats turn to triumph
If you trust in God's wisdom and will.
For faith is a mover of mountains,
There's nothing that God cannot do,
So, start out today with faith in your heart,
And climb 'til your dream comes true!

Feb 23, 2018

As others have said, persistence and casting a wide net are the keys to success when it comes to networking. While it can definitely be frustrating to run into brick wall after brick wall, you can't let yourself become highly frustrated and ready to give up. Unless you are coming on way too strong, saying inappropriate things or something else that you should be able to spot, you will have luck and find yourself some solid contacts eventually.

Perhaps most importantly, although you should be persistent, you also need to know when to give up on a contact and accept that he/she isn't interested or doesn't have the time. Good luck.

Feb 23, 2018

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/good-news
Bust your ass. Do it when you lose hope. Do it when doubt creeps in. Do it when you don't think you have a chance in hell at landing a banking job. It's a slow, painful grind, but you just have to keep fighting.

Feb 23, 2018

all the monkeys on this thread are correct. Just remember the following quote:

"Every NO gets you closer to your next YES" (SuitedWolf, 2010) :P

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Feb 23, 2018

I was in a similar position at the beginning of my first year. Eventually I just realized that networking is just a fancy word for being outgoing. That's all it really means. Get out there and meet whoever you want to meet. My first true long-term contact that I created was through sheer luck at my university's Starbucks. We introduced each other, he gave me his email and that, at first, seemed like the end of it. I just kept emailing and emailing until I got a reply, eventually we had several conversations through email (obviously in a professional manner) and through time he offered to meet me in person again and show me the ropes. My advice to you is show interest and passion, and you will get rewarded.

Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go - T.S. Eliot

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Feb 23, 2018

I understand to show passion and interest that is why the few guys I am talking to keep replying. However with that said what information should I truly be asking these guys? Should I stick to questions on modeling and other things or what types of questions do you usually ask them?

giorgio.delgado:

I was in a similar position at the beginning of my first year. Eventually I just realized that networking is just a fancy word for being outgoing. That's all it really means. Get out there and meet whoever you want to meet. My first true long-term contact that I created was through sheer luck at my university's Starbucks. We introduced each other, he gave me his email and that, at first, seemed like the end of it. I just kept emailing and emailing until I got a reply, eventually we had several conversations through email (obviously in a professional manner) and through time he offered to meet me in person again and show me the ropes. My advice to you is show interest and passion, and you will get rewarded.

Feb 23, 2018

Sports.

Feb 23, 2018

Well since you want to form long-term connections with these guys you probably want to ask them something that will sort of break the ice in a professional manner... Ask them how they get to be where they, ask them to clear up rumours you've heard about the IB's etc, and just try to gain inside knowledge without pushing the envelope too much. Most people like to share what they've learnt so don't think that what you're asking is annoying them.

Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go - T.S. Eliot

See my WSO Blog

    • 1
Feb 23, 2018

For networking with investment bankers, I recommend showing interest in their background - ask how they got into investment banking, what they do in their free time, focus on any shared connections, seem friendly and outgoing, make small talk or a joke (if they seem to be receptive). Gauge their response through their body language and demeanor. SMILE.

Feb 23, 2018

Just try to have a conversation. What you normally do when you're at a bar picking up chicks.

Feb 23, 2018

Get the WSO Networking Guide. It is well worth the money.

Feb 23, 2018

Yes, be open about your intentions, and get them involved such that they feel invested in your success. That way, they help you more.

Feb 23, 2018

ask them if they like the company and the work, and ask them to tell you about some part of their work that they have enjoyed (a deal, a trade, a team, etc..). They will invariably say yes, and then when they tell you about something they have enjoyed, they will be feeling a positive emotion associated with the company. This moment is when you should say "that sounds awesome...i'd really like a shot to work there....can you help me get into the interview process?"

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Feb 23, 2018
  1. Just tell them if they have a couple minutes to chat with you
  2. Find someone at the company that you have a connection to (friend of a friend, alumni, met at a career fair, etc.) and after speaking to them, ask them for more contacts
  3. Ask when you are setting up your info interview with people you have already corresponded with over email
  4. Alumni network is a nice start
Feb 23, 2018

1) Introduce yourself (name, school, major), mention general interest in industry, say you would like to learn more about firm, division, etc. Would you have a few minutes to connect sometime next week?

2) Two options to get contacts:
- If you know the recruiter, mention your interest in a particular division or group and they'll try to set you up with alumni. If there's no alumni in the particular area you're interested in, they'll set you up with another junior member that is willing to talk to you. If you don't know your recruiter for the firm, find that out by emailing the general HR email and networking with the recruiter.
- Second option = LINKEDIN! Hit enter in the search bar and then filter by firm and your high school and college. Reach out to those people by sending LinkedIn invitations (with customized messages--see bullet #1). Or emailing them by guessing their corporate email based on the company format (ex. Jackie Doe at Goldman Sachs would be [email protected], typically works unless their's a middle initial, or odd spelling of names)

3) You don't just call people to network. If you've connected over email ask if they'd have time for a call or to meet for coffee. If you get a call on the table, obviously there needs to be an exchange of phone numbers. I usually give mine since I schedule calls during my free time and will be waiting by the phone, whereas bankers have shit to do and it easy for them to call me when they're at a good stopping place

4) Unless you have friends in the industry already, email's the most accessible way to network. You could go to conferences, firm presentations, etc. But I've found those aren't as beneficial as developing personal relationships.

Email --> Phone/Coffee --> Resume forward --> Interview --> Job is the typical progression of networking.

Tips:
- Most important thing about networking is to get a referral to someone else. It doesn't have to be during the first interaction. Meaning if you get in touch with someone in GS Consumer/Retail, ask if they know someone in Industrials, TMT, etc. that they could put you in touch with so you can learn more about that industry/group.
- Networking is easier if you reach out to people you have some commonality with--alumni (college or high school), nationality (if you're an international student, reach out to someone from the same home country), fraternity/sorority, professional clubs/student organization alums. People are more willing to help people they relate to

Feb 23, 2018

Definitely send emails to each one individually. I would scale into this position... email one at a time, with the people you want to connect with most, first. Give a few days between each email, so you don't seem aggressive or set up too many meetings at once. If no one replies, repeat with second emails.

Feb 23, 2018

Start with him/her for referrals. Certain career fairs prove helpful for some too.

Feb 23, 2018

Do you have alums that you can contact? i find that it works really well because at least you have something in common. It's a lot more awkward/weird if you find someone off of linked-in, IMHO. There must be some hedge fund network/association also. I know for private equity, there is a Private Equity Association for young professionals (get together for drinks and the like) which would at least be a good conduit to getting to know people.

Feb 23, 2018

Try going to local store and getting a prepaid phone. You have a number and can spend whatever you want.

Feb 23, 2018

if you cant get a prepaid phone, let him know your situation and maybe he'll be reasonable.

Feb 23, 2018

Give it a few more days. I once emailed an MD at Goldman and it took nearly a whole month until he responded positively. I'm not suggesting you wait a month but don't pester them with an email every day. Give it a week from when you sent the first email.

Also, get used to contacts sometimes going cold. People say to spread your net far and wide because 75% of people you network with or more, while they may offer to help at first, will end up doing nothing. Just keep at it with a positive attitude, because in the end you only need one solid connection to break in. You just never know who it will be.

Feb 23, 2018

Give it a few days - they know you want a job so no need to sugar coat it so give it say 5 days and see how it goes. Like banker88 said, I network with alums (target ivy) a lot and having spoken with about 100+ people in the last few years, maybe 20 will meaningfully help.

Just be patient and smart about how you follow-up. Don't give up :D

Feb 23, 2018
pokersliar:

having spoken with about 100+ people in the last few years, maybe 20 will meaningfully help.

shit, what a disheartening number!!

Feb 23, 2018

Well my hit rate's more like, I approached about 150 people, 100 of them will meet with me. Give or take some you just don't click with or are not doing something that interested me

That reduced it to maybe 50 people. Then those 50, some are not in a position to help me (headcount, circumstances, etc, not senior enough)

the 20 people that helped helped meainingfully to give me good advice, help me get jobs, and introduce me to their friends / colleagues.

I think the last is most important as your network expands that way even if you don't get an offer etc. In the end, networking will pay off tremendously if done right / well / dilligently.

To the op, the fact that you follow-up, are professional etc show that you care and are taking the time. So don't act desperate but do show that you put in the effort and it will pay off :D

Cheers

Feb 23, 2018

thanks for the advice guys. I just feel like a high schooler right now, always checking my email to see if I got a response, like i just texted a girl I like and keep looking at my phone for a response.

Thanks guys.

Feb 23, 2018

It can be nerve-racking for everyone at any level so no worries but remmeber not to distract yourself too much and not to put your egg in one basket. I had one time where a very senior guy at a BB basically promised me a job and I was super psyched for a week and almost didn't look at other opportunities. In the end it fell through so I'm glad I didn't just wait for that one person.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

Feb 23, 2018

It is nerve wracking waiting around for someone to email you back. I like the comparison to high school.

I'd agree that you should wait a few days before reaching out again, but when you reach out again, CALL the analyst. Everyone emails these days and inboxes are cluttered. Phones don't ring as much and you might surprise yourself with someone taking the call or getting back to you after you leave a message.

Also try to find some other alums that you know at the company. Send them an email saying that you'd met and had a good conversation with who is putting you in touch with , and you were wondering if they would be willing to talk to you by phone for 10 min one day to get their perspective on some questions you have. Include a few bullets or sentence about yourself highlighting the things that will think they wouldn't be wasting your time talking to you. This serves two purposes. The new individual may know/run into the analyst or VP and mention that they'd heard from you, reinforcing your candidacy and serving as a reminder that they need to get back to you, and it gives you another potential champion within the company.

If the person agrees to talk, make sure you're ready. Here's something to take a look at before that conversation
How to Approach Informational Interviews - Key Do's and Don'ts http://bit.ly/VCr79
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Feb 23, 2018

thanks for the advice guys. I did happen to get a response email today from the analyst and we are setting up a meeting time later this week. I also got a couple other responses from alum I reached out to a while ago. I guess they were all reading my post...

Thanks though!

Feb 23, 2018

Definitely keep in touch with both contacts, it would really be a mistake not to. That doesn't mean you have to email them every X weeks, but you really want to have as many contacts as you can. If you have two people passing your resume to HR, that's better than one.

As for #2, I'd say that tends to be just fine, but I'd express some interest in him and his division first. But this will all depend on how your conversation went, how much time you have, what you need, etc. I'm sure someone else has a good insight on this one.

Feb 23, 2018

Yeah, that makes sense

Feb 23, 2018

I'd attach the previous email and reapply.

Feb 23, 2018

If you have no other relations to this person, it's probably a dead end, since he was probably on the team that dinged you.

Feb 23, 2018

but they dinged him because he wasn't a junior. i'd try contacting him, see if he remembers. worth a try.

"... then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

Feb 23, 2018

Email him, never take no for an answer, you never know what can happen.

Feb 23, 2018

send an email that looks generic with a 'seasons greeting' message and maybe he will respond and open a dialog. or if not, wait till after the new year and put in a feeler that way you wont look like a total self interested / self serving goof! that way you've got one touch point that isn't job related. good luck

Feb 23, 2018

the moment you contact him he'll know you're in it for the job. no half-intelligent person would not think that. i say go straight to the chase, maybe he'll even appreciate the honesty.
if you start with a generic email, he'll feel no obligation to get back to you unless you impressed him so much that he feels it's imperative that you join their team. if you email him something where you try to sound nonchalant, you'll sound like an idiot who thinks nobody knows he wants the job. OF COURSE YOU WANT THE JOB!! it's not something you should be ashamed of!

"... then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

Feb 23, 2018

Definitely email the guy - and just reply to the original message and say , hey how are you - not sure if you rememeber but we spoke last year blah blah. In any case, im applying again and would love to catch up if you have time

Feb 23, 2018

Sometimes a well placed phone call in the late evening is a good way to show them you are interested.

Feb 23, 2018

I agree with the above posts. There's no loss in trying to contact this guy. Worst possibility is he doesn't respond to you.

Feb 23, 2018

how would it be completely different? wouldnt your school just be different? thats pretty easily explainable...

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Feb 23, 2018

well i would join new clubs ect. and i plan on leaving off my old school and all that i did there (clubs ect.).

should i just say i will send him one in the future.

Feb 23, 2018

no thats stupid. if anything, it will sound like you're trying to hide something by waiting? if someone wants to see your resume, they want to see it now. they dont want to see it in a couple months when you have "new bullshit" to add to it. unless you know youll be in some ultra impressive ultra elite club or something, nobodys going to give a shit that you were in basketweaving club at one school and now youre in dance club at your new school.

bring up the transfer, it will give you something to talk about.

John Tabacco's raw, unique market commentary based on real information from real short sellers:
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Feb 23, 2018

well i have the meeting today and i dont have my resume with me and i am at work and gmail is blocked.

that being said would it be bad to send it to him when i get home after the meeting.( if he does ask for it) plus i am not hoping for a FT interview i am a sophmore and would be interested in SA position for next summer. and thanks for all of your help so far

Plus: my current resume is kind of barron as i did not have a finance internship my fresh year. so should i inculde my current position on it if he asks and then email it to him tonight.

Feb 23, 2018

Dude, just bring up that you are transferring in casual conversation. Only thing changing will be the name of your school and club names. Real simple in my opinion.

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Feb 23, 2018
AnthonyD1982:

Dude, just bring up that you are transferring in casual conversation. Only thing changing will be the name of your school and club names. Real simple in my opinion.

thanks for the help but what about

TMgolf:

well i have the meeting today and i dont have my resume with me and i am at work and gmail is blocked.

that being said would it be bad to send it to him when i get home after the meeting.( if he does ask for it) plus i am not hoping for a FT interview i am a sophmore and would be interested in SA position for next summer. and thanks for all of your help so far

Plus: my current resume is kind of barron as i did not have a finance internship my fresh year. so should i inculde my current position on it if he asks and then email it to him tonight.

Feb 23, 2018

Do you have a cell phone? You could forward your resume to your work and print it out. Find a coffee house or something and print it. Call a friend or your mom and have them log into your account and send it to your work.

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Feb 23, 2018