Should I renege this late?
So basically my question is: should I renege my offer at a MM for a JA position at JPM?
Background: I signed a mid tier MM offer back in Dec when they gave me one and I continued recruiting. I recently got an offer at JPM as a Junior analyst (basically one year below 1st yr analyst) in a mid-tier group that is not super sought after, I kept recruiting cause I applied for it before I got the offer at the MM and I never thought I would actually be able to get it somehow.
The position at the MM is a FT first year analyst position and the MM is a very well respected one on the street and the compensation is higher.. If I renege, especially this late... I am sure they will be pissed off and I don't know if both offers will fall through, realistically speaking. I know it's bad and has consequences and I normally wouldn't do it if it's for some other BBs cause the risk is high, but I was tempted and wanted to give this a thought cause it's JP and it's really hard to get into, I worked very hard to get to this point and jumped many hoops.
MM: M&A analyst (I like M&A)
JPM: Coverage group (I don't like the industry very much but I was hoping to switch to other groups after a year.)
Future: Hopefully stay in banking? But not sure, won't go back to b school.
I normally wouldn't want to do this but I saw some of my friends reneging, it was bad but they got out fine and now working at shops they want to work for. So my question is should I renege? I am currently leaning towards that and hope to get some objective advice.
Pls don't come ask why did I get the offer at JPM and other kids haven't heard back, I am very lucky and that group moved fast, that's all.
Thanks!
vikkk, you're not guaranteed a FT offer after completing the JA program, right? If that's the case I would take the sure-thing: the FT offer from the MM.
I'd go with the MM. If this was for a FT position at JPM that would be a different story (especially since you don't like the group).
MM. You said they're well respected so you reneging will possibly have repercussions in the future.
Mm
giving up a FT offer for a summer offer. not sure that makes sense?
no this is not a summer offer - but a full time position at JPM. And the group at JPM said 100% conversion rate last year since they are more relaxed and 2 junior analysts in that group last year (I talked to them) all became full time analysts there...
WTF is a junior analyst?
I'm going to side with everyone else here. Take the FT at MM as you have officially broken into banking. Taking the JA at JP isn't a guarantee. I think working at an MM has benefits that you won't see at a BB anyway, like broader and more interesting work.
The brand name at JPM is worth 100x more than the MM shop. I'd reneg if you're willing to burn those bridges.
This is not a summer offer - but a full time position at JPM. And the group at JPM said 100% conversion rate last year since they are more relaxed and 2 junior analysts in that group last year (I talked to them) all became full time analysts there.
It's like asking would you rather have HBS on your resume with no job guarantee upon graduation or would you rather have gone to some no-name school with a guaranteed job at some no-name place
Wouldn't this analogy only be accurate if reneging on the no-name school could potentially result in your admission being revoked from both HBS and the no-name school...
Except "Mid Market" is NOT synonymous with "no name place". Tell that to any of the large numbers of bankers at any BB who started at other shops.
But I am concerned about burning bridges there at the MM cause they are also well respected, actually very respected. So I don't know how to about it. And also, if JPM knows I am reneging, would they take away the offer? They asked me if I have an offer I said yes but they did not ask whether I signed..
How well respected? Jefferies/Houlihan Lokey/Raymond James? RBC/Wells? Lincoln/Blair/Baird? If they have good dealflow I'd rather get paid at an MM with exits to MM PE than get the essential slave wage 1st year of a Junior Analyst.
How much are JAs making relative to traditional Analysts out of undergrad at JPM? I would have thought that total comp would be the same, with the only slight variance being bonuses.
yeah like the first three...
Just curious, how would you rank the 3 sets of MM banks you described? Were you doing lowest to highest, or highest to lowest? Also, do you still consider them all pretty respectable, or nah?
There is gonna be a difference, small but not that small.
What's the expected comp for the JA position? If your targeted bonus is anything remotely close and you're making $100k+ then it's another story. But I think the safest path is MM, and lateral to a BB or EB if you prefer that route. MM M&A is probably better than getting a shitty group at JPM.
I think you should make it clearer in the main post that this is a FT 1 year position, not a summer internship, and that you basically do the exact same work as an analyst, just with a different title (and lower pay).
I would take the MM offer, seems like its everything you want except the "prestige" of a top BB, which is kind of overrated anyway. It's about the experience, and M&A with decent deal flow is better than a "meh" coverage group.
Yes people here actually summarized correctly, I want everything the MM could offer except the prestige part. And JA is a 1 yr full time analyst contract but I could always lateral down the road if I don't want to stay at the MM for the long haul.
I kinda don't want to burn those bridges especially I am just starting out.
Sorry, I'm completely out of the loop. What's a JA? I've spent my time interning at an EB in M&A, and going FT in restructuring to another EB and have never heard of the title. Is the JA thing for investment banking, trading, non-front-office?
JA= junior analyst in IB, where you are a year below 1st-year analysts. Upon successful completion, you have the opportunity to become a FT analyst.
Pls give more advice - I am still hesitating, JPM agreed to give me a few more days to consider.
Thanks guys!
Maybe look at exits from this JPM group?
Honestly, I'd go with the MM because, especially if it's HL/JEFF, a) it's M&A, b) you can go to PE pretty easily, c) it's FT guaranteed and pays probably double the JA position. Odds are you'll want to leave banking and if you want to go to PE, you will have already recruited for your exit by this time next year (or actively recruiting). If you do the JA then you'll be doing your best just to lock down a spot going forward and will have to be in banking a full year or more longer than otherwise. If you don't like your MM and want to go a BB/EB then you can just lateral a year in and be at or ahead of where you'd be at JPM in a year.
Personally, I see very little upside if you'd be reneging on a legit MM (does JPM know you've accepted an offer elsewhere? you could easily lose both offers and get blacklisted three months before you graduate if the MM gets upset). It's up to you but this is one of those times where it probably doesn't make sense to take the better name.
OP, if it's HL or Jeff, take the offer.
Yeah the thing is I am not sure I want to go to PE long term you know? I just want to advance fast and get to a senior position in banking most likely.
I think the advice has been pretty unilaterally to stay with the MM. I tend to agree.
I probably will go to the MM - but can someone shed some light in terms of how realistic is it to switch groups within JPM internally??
Anecdotally, all JPM JAs I know went to the same group for FT. I would say your chance to switch internally is as good as any 1st yr analyst trying to switch groups(especially if you JA group is niche, e.g. FIG). Have a fairly good idea which MM you have the offer from, who is strong in M&A. I second MM FT.
yeah I want to switch - so it's fairly easy to switch to other groups in JPM after 1 yr there? That would be my motivation if I do decide to join JP cause I know I don't want do stay in that industry group for long (just not interested in that industry), I will have to switch. Being able to switch (if possible) is basically the allure for me at JPM.a
Basically if I can't switch after 1 yr, I don't want to go to JP.
what kind of group at JPM?
If the MM is that well respected on the street, reneging might burn some seriously important bridges
I would take the MM M&A offer. If it's a well respected shop, this is a better option than Jr Analyst in coverage at JPM. It's extremely tough to "switch to other groups after a year." You will be competing for a 1st yr FT offer at JPM. MM IB also may have a better work culture/balance. My 2 cents.
OP you are a damn fool if you renege for a JA role for less money and "prestige"
Not in IB, but out of curiosity, but are exit opps between MM and BB that much different? I am assuming its similar to Big 4 consulting vs. MBB, but not sure if that is comparable.
Skip the JA role, and take the MM offer. I've never even heard of JAs so that must be a new thing.
The lowest risk option if you want to end up at a BB in a good group is to take the MM M&A role and then lateral to a BB after a year. That way you don't lose a year of seniority, and you will likely have better ability to pick a group you are interested in.
OP, it sounds like you're graduating from college this year (hence the reference to getting an offer an December)? If that's the case, then here's how I'm seeing it: the JA program is like a "second chance" for people who didn't make it into IB the first time around (out of undergrad) and then went to TAS, accounting, or whatever upon graduation. By doing the JA program, they can restart in IB at the entry-level, get an extra year to get up to speed relative to their peers, and get an impressive IB pedigree.
In your case, you were able to get into IB right off the bat, so you don't need an extra year for the JA. You're already starting on third base and don't need to play catch up. The JP Morgan name is nice and I can see how it would be hard to give up, but if you got an offer this time around, I have no doubt that you'll get one as a lateral hire for the group of your choice if you want to. Just one person's opinion, though.
wtf is a junior analyst? go MM.
MM, especially if its in the tier of HL/Evercore/Lazard/Greenhill plus M&A group is better than some coverage group you are not too keen about... also once you graduate people dont care about where you are working. I know it will be cool to say to your classmates that you signed an offer at JPM, but, again, once you graduate no one will really care.
Now that I checked my MM fellow analysts placement after IB - all MM funds or other paths.
JPM: I think it's safe to say a lot of mega funds or much more at least, and also much more MM funds.
Although I said that I want to stay in banking, but who knows? If I change my mind and want to do PE, then JPM coverage group seems to be much nicer.
I am not sure now.
Dude, take the MM offer and then lateral to JPM or some other BB if you want, instead of taking the JA offer. You'll be making more money and will probably have a better experience and still end up in the same place. Literally everyone is telling you to take the MM offer (many who are Certified Users) and you're still debating this? Jesus christ.
Megafunds are overrated.
Just to play devils advocate, the JPM could be a good choice depending on your goals. 1 year making $20K less than your peers is nothing in the scheme of things, and the placement rate of JA is near 100%. This is far higher than the chance of a lateral from MM to BB, which no matter how good you are, takes some luck.
Even if the JA program didn't work out, one year of investment banking at JP Morgan would open a lot of doors at other banks, some PE funds, or really anything else you would wanna do.
People made good points above, but wanted to throw out the other side since it sounds like you have some reservations.
The only thing is I kinda don't like the coverage industry, ppl there are great and nice but I don't feel very interested in the industry and the motivation for me to do it is that I will have to switch groups after a year and I am not sure about how doable is that. That's my only reservation.
I will have to tell them today soon. Pls advise.
And my goal is to probably stay in banking.
If you don't like the coverage group, you should leave the position open to someone who will actually enjoy it. As I understand, some people are actually waitlisted waiting for you to choose.
I declined so ppl on the wait list should be getting calls
I think you made the right choice in declining. I think it was kind of contradicting that you were worried about reneging because your MM is respected...and then turned around and said you were worried about their "prestige".
A JA to me is so vague; wtf would your responsibilities even be? I'm assuming you wouldn't be staffed as the sole analyst on deals because you're a "JA". So you're basically some analyst or associate's slave for a year? No thanks man. Plus your experience would be crap.
Yeah you made the right decision. You don't want to start as a sub analyst 1. The lifestyle is bad enough without an extra year added.
Ok - so I wanted to ask more about the possibility of doing 2 years at my MM and move directly to another shop (BB/EB) for an associate role (skip the third year as an analyst)? Is that possible? And how realistic is that?
Thanks.
It's easiest if you go A2A after second year at your MM if that's a possibility and then move.
So after I get the A2A promotion at my MM, then I instantly become more desirable at other shops and they might offer me an associate position even if I never worked there for a day before? How does this process work if you don't mind to elaborate?
Thanks.
How late is too late to renege? (Originally Posted: 04/26/2011)
Got an offer at the end of my summer internship at a BB in Ops. Accepted it so it didn't explode and have been trying to network my way into a S&T role at a BB ever since. It's looking like I am probably going to get the S&T job in the next few weeks and i'm wondering what to do about the other offer. Is a few weeks before I am supposed to start the Ops job too late to renege?
The real answer is it is never too late. You need to do what's best for you. If/when you land the S&T gig, and sign the contract etc., reneg on your Ops offer.
Yes, you will temporarily burn bridges with your summer BB, but in the long term it is a much better move. (I am assuming the S+T BB knows you have signed at the other bank).
Reneging FT this late (Originally Posted: 03/13/2010)
I accepted an FT offer last fall with a good boutique (think centerview/Rothschild). At this point I am presented with the opportunity to interview with a mid-tier BB for same start date.
a) Should I tell said BB I have an offer from boutique if I interview? b) If I renege can the boutique fuck me over in any way? c) Should I not take the risk?
I would want to lateral any way later on, I think this may be the best time to get to a firm I want to be at. Any bankers have any thoughts on this? If you are a college junior, I don't need your opinion. Thanks in advance.
Don't do it. Stick with what you have.
Which BB is it? There is no such thing as a mid tier BB, BB's are by their definition, top-tier.
It obviously depends where you want to go, but your going to get more prestige and exit opps at a BB - just a fact.
don't fucking do it
I don't understand why people reneg on top firms like Centerview for BB's.
Best advice I can give is to create the classic t-chart and list your pros and cons. I don't think anyone can do this except for you as it will all be personal. One thing I would suggest is seriously considering the upside vs. downside. Best case scenario - you may land a slightly better gig. Worst case scenario - you fuck up both things and graduate jobless. Especially given the time frame, it would be pretty damn hard to find any alternatives this late in the game. Maybe if it was September when you'd have plenty of other firms still in recruiting mode, but March?! HR is focused on group placement and training, not more interviews.
I wouldn't go for the one up.
Which BB is it? There is no such thing as a mid tier BB, BB's are by their definition, top-tier. --> yes there are. there are mid and lower tier ivies even though they are by definition top tier
and i would put rothschild and centerview over any BB other than GS/MS and MAYBE JPMorgan
You would seriously choose rothschild and centerview over BAML, JPM and CS?
and op is an idiot for even thinking about reneging.
If you are interviewing with the M&A or LevFin in that BB, I would still consider the renege option.
If you are actually interview with a coverage team in that BB, you'll probably be better off with Rothschild and Centerview.
Many BB outsource modeling work to M&A and LevFin. Your opportunity to building Accretion/Dilution and LBO, especially full blown ones, will be severely limited in an industry coverage team.
Just my 2cents.
The banking community is small, so depending on your risk-tolerance, I would consider that. Higher ups have strongly advised against reneging. On the other side, almost every buy-side mentor I know has said it's not an issue at all.
when MDs from big banks move to boutiques, they look at recent reviews and pick the top analysts/associates to go with them. People usually fight for these positions. don't really understand why some people would encourage the op to renege rothschild or centerview under ANY circumstance, especially this late in the process... its not like we are talking about reneging piper jaffray for gs here guys. even if the op considers BBs to be a better choice, the difference is too small to warrant this kind of risk.
Wait, so now you're saying the differences between BB's and boutiques are small? What happened to "anyone who knows anything about elite boutiques would choose [insert boutique] over BB..."? All else being equal, most people would probably choose a top 5 BB over an elite boutique.
so most people would take CS and Bofa over Blackstone M&A and Lazard?
Did I say every elite boutique?
Rothschild and Centerview are not Blacksone or Lazard.
Getting back to topic... wsorenege, you'll get a great experience at centerview or rothschild. It's not worth burning bridges for. I second whoever said that people on this forum put wayyy too much stake on a firm's name and that culture of the group is what's important.
Even if you're in a top group like MS M&A, if you don't get along with the people/they don't like you, you're not going to do well...
You shouldn't risk reneging at this time. It will seriously piss off HR at your firm and they have the potential to destroy your BB opportunity. Just stick with what you have and enjoy your time off before work starts.
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/rothschild-v-moelis-v-baml-v-citi
here's another thread where BobbyLight disses Moelis and Rothschild...
dudes a baml homer and just wants to talk shit about other firms.. i dont know why all these baml kids gotta get all defensive and shit (1styearbanker, ibhopeful532, BobbyLight)... apparently cs db and barcap are all "inferior" to baml according to this retard.. sorry i had to oust you but i had a long day at work... on a fucking saturday and day light savings
btw, TPG buyout fund is taking 4 kids from boutiques this year, 1 from baml.. and the combined size of ALL of the elite boutique classes is still smaller than one baml class. Just spoke to my buddies at some of these boutiques and pe exits are robust as usual.
I can also tell you for a fact, having interviewed at both BBs and top boutiques, that the interview process at the boutiques is more difficult.. They encourage you to meet as many of the senior people as you can and interviews are usually much more technical in nature.
dont do it. it's not worth it
Your BB will most likely take away ur offer if they find out.
Here's how I know
1) One of my frends is a recruiter at a top 3 bb (GS/JPM/MS) and if tehy find out you renegged on another, they will yank your current offer ...(unless you're a relationship hire)
2) One of my best friends tried to reneg on a mid market boutique to take a GS fulltime offer. When GS found out this is what he had to do, they sent the issue to the head of HR as well as head of banking and only if the head of banking was willing to sign a waiver to allow it to happen. In the end it did not
It's really NOT worth burning bridges and your new employer will also see you as a flake.
Small nit - some contracts say that you have to disclose contractual obligations before you sign but this was in my lateral contract so check your FT contract
first of all, never renege, I've heard tons of horror stories and witnessed a few if you still want to lateral, make sure you understand the pros and cons of boutiques v BBs (do a search)
otherwise, go into your job with an open mind. who knows, things might change.
seems like a mixed garbage bag here about reneging
I could swear some banks like poaching talent from other banks and the fact that you have offers from x bank makes you exponentially more desirable when interviewing... in fact they ALWAYS ask you if you got an offer from your internship. It's very ironic that they'd pull the rug from under you when you renege, especially when you're some ivy finance clone they could replace in minutes... yet in my limited experience reneging is a huge ass no no and the only way you'll get in is if you never breathe a word about it, EVER.
IB culture is sure weird as hell
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