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760 and above should be fine. 780 is really the maximum you need. Most focus is on quantitative part so make sure you score highly on that one.
a 760 by itself will not make you competitive for the highest MBA if you are lacking in GPA/work exp/&extracurriculars.
lol 700+ and you are fine
work experience /leadership/ growth become more important at that point
800
700 is the general benchmark. The top programs's (H/S/W) 80% range is generally between 680 - 740 or thereabouts but again its more about total package.
Yes I would agree with the benchmark comment. Unlike law school admissions, which are highly formulaic, MBA admissions have many more soft factors. Essays (especially your plan and your purpose) are extremely important. Peruse the profiles of gmatclub forums and you will see plenty of low 700's in at elite programs, and plenty of 750+'s dinged or waitlisted everywhere they applied.
Bottom line, the GMAT is what gets you looked at, not what gets you in.
my understanding is GMAT is a check the box sort of deal...i dont think even a 780 will get you in when a 750 wouldn't have in 99% of cases
a high score on your resume might impress employers (getting a 780 is alot rarer than a 750 and exponentially more rare than a 715--the average for most top MBAs)
Actually 715 is probably the rarest of them all, considering the scores are in multiples of 10.
To the OP, what you get on the GMAT will be a determining factor in where you apply. With respect to your other factors, your GPA is fairly low, though you don't mention your degree or school.
2 yrs WE (3 @ matriculation) is a bit below average but not a huge hindrance.
With respect to your intended industries, you need to have a very clear idea of what you want to do with an MBA, and it needs to jive with your past experience. It's fine if you want to do VC/PE (probably the most difficult industry to break into...) but I wouldn't write your essays about those industries unless you have experience in them. Once you're in it doesnt matter what you said you wanted to do on your essays or in your interview.
If you do decide to go that route, you need to do some serious research.
Thanks for the replies
If it's more of an overall candidacy issue then these are my credentials:
1) 3.2 GPA in undergrad 2) 2 Years of work experience by the time I submit my apps 3) I want to do VC/PE but I haven't done enough research on it to be sure 4) Shooting for a 700+
What do you guys think?
my gut reaction is... DING. 2 yrs of work exp in what?
getting 740+ is not very hard at all if you are in ibd (i.e. you are smart enough)
Obviously, gmat alone is useless.
ding?
2 years in accounting/human resources
Depends where you are aiming. I have a 760 GMAT and will have 4+ years of IBD experience when I apply and I fully expect to be dinged from HBS and Stanford, maybe an interview at Wharton. With a 720, you'd be competitive at schools like Darden / Kenan-Flagler / etc although that "accounting / human resources" experience sounds a lot like payroll which is :/
It includes payroll, but I also run figures for quarterly reports and annual returns (payroll/taxes). The human resources part includes management, admin, and coordination of our benefits packaging.
Could someone tell me what DING means?
Those programs are about the same caliber as my target schools: UCLA Anderson, UT McCombs, and NYU Stern. I also have Columbia on the list, but it is my "reach-for-the-stars" option not necessarily my top choice.
Personally, my choice of school goes in this order:
1) Anderson 2) McCombs 3) Columbia 4) Stern
What do you all think?
Only McCombs seems realistic, unless you get 760+
I really think the thing that is going to hurt you the most is a) the fact that you have the bare minimum when it comes to work experience and b) the fact that the work experience you do have isn't steller in comparision to the schools you are applying to. Honestly, I would hold off on applying until you have more experience and more responsibility.
Ding means rejected unlike game shows where a "ding ding" often implies prizes and Bob Barker's sexually harassed models giving you a 2009 Camry.
!!DING DING DING DING DING!!
The GMAT should be the least of your concerns. While it should be 700+, you will almost certainly not get in unless you handle the following issues:
If you want a strong shot, you need to a lot in the way of extracurriculars to demonstrate leadership potential (e.g. found some organization and get a lot of people involved). The work experience does not look good, so somehow you have to spin that to make it sound impressive/like you have taken a leadership role.
With those stats and your target schools (except for maybe McCombs), you need more work experience...like 2 more years
There is no 'except for maybe "x"' on your list. With a 690 you could get dinged at all or accepted at all. And the same is true with a 760. I have a 710 and got in everywhere I applied (including Texas, Darden, Ross, and Fuqua). I am a white male with 4 years of financial svcs experience (non-bb s&t), a liberal arts degree from a regional private school, dropped out of a previous grad program with a 2.0 (stopped going to class)..my undergrad grades were good but that's pretty much it. No community service, no leadership bs...just good recs and good essays. I know a guy with a similar profile but with better grades, better work exp, and a 770 and he got dinged at Texas, HBS, Wharton (no interview), Booth, and WL'd at Darden. I repeat, the GMAT is merely what gets you looked at, and that bar is far lower than you imagine. Many of the others responding on here sound like 20 year olds with no clue as to the reality of mba admissions. That's ok, I didn't either until I went through it. Apply wherever you want, just have a good reason for doing so.
ok. try to get 700+. it's pretty much a standard recommendation.
btw, you are probably korean. right? did you have military experience? i'm trying to reconcile 2 years of full time work ex with the 1984 in your name. 18 months or whatever in the military would explain some of that gap. dude, military experience - even if mandatory - is not dead weight. that's kinda part of your work ex. i do agree that 2 more years of work ex will stand you in good stead. along with a 90+%ile gmat (700+ ideally).
good luck brother.
haha, ok thanks guys.
Apologies for the late replies...busy week.
I can play up the work experience. I'm technically considered the Controller and HR Manager - my bosses can back that up in the rec letter
However, I won't be working here anymore so two years is all I got. I will be trying to take on a leadership role in a couple of comm serv groups and my church's youth group.
Still aiming for a 700+ for sure. What else would I need to do other than taking on responsibility? I'm really hoping to squeeze my way into Anderson. dk
I have an MBA and used to work with our admissions department while I was in school.
A few pointers:
A 740 is usually considered strong enough to overcome deficiencies in other parts of your application. (Getting above 700 is considered "normal") A score below 700 usually is a deficiency, which will have to be overcome by other parts of your application.
Your career goal is going to be the most important part of your application. PE/VC is completely unrealistic for you. I'm dead serious. If you write on your app that you want to get into PE or VC you will get dinged because the only people who get into those industries are the kids who started out in those industries, or possibly some BB kids (but not HR guys).
2 years experience is on the low side for sure, but is not a deal killer upon itself. Lots of schools favor younger candidates, most notably HBS.
Your undergrad institution 'brand' matters. So does your major. A 3.2 GPA from Harvard would probably be looked at favorably by the adcoms. A 3.2 GPA from some unknown institution is going to be a problem. Likewise, an Engineering major would be good. Art History would be bad.
Your employer 'brand' matters. From the sound of it, you are working at a no-name company. Bschools will NOT be impressed. This is a big problem, because bschools put a lot of emphasis on the fact that the 'brand name' companies (Goldman, Google, Bain, etc) have uber competitive recruiting and if you aren't at a name brand company, they will think you weren't able to 'cut it'.
Personally, I'd advise you to wait to apply to school until you have a bit more exp. Bschool is a one-time 'reset button' in your career and honestly I'd use the opportunity wisely.
As some others have said here, your profile screams 'ding'. A high GMAT and some very interesting essays can help you. Get involved with some interesting shit in your personal life. Bschool admissions is extremely competitive and I'd strongly recommend looking into backup schools.
Good luck
What about percentile ranking? I know Harvard lets you take courses pass/fail if they are not part of your major and I hear the average GPA at Harvard is around a 3.3-3.4. Does the brand name of schools like Harvard trump grade inflation practices?
I did read somewhere that VC/PE is pretty difficult to break into
Because of that I decided to change up my goal. I'm going to get an MBA concentration in Operations Management and go after a CMA. This way I can go into any business (esp manufacturing) and know what to look at and how to properly analyze it. I want to be near the top of, if not making, every financial decision and know how it affects a company inside and out
I wish I could stick it out for more experience, but I'm learning nothing at my job right now. It's honestly a huge waste of my time, and I would still be stuck in HR. This is my only real play unless sales at ESPN counts as a "brand" name.
700 is considered normal? For Anderson/McCombs caliber programs?
My 3.2 is from UTexas - Austin - not Harvard but not Greendale CC either. I do plan on joining 2 comm serv groups and get back into youth group leadership? Or by "interesting" did you mean a 21-vegas type situation?
dk
700 @ McCombs/Anderson level is considered good but not outstanding. A 3.2 would be low at both. You still haven't said what your major was, unless I missed it. A 3.2 in chem E might be good, a 3.2 in History...not so much. Applying to McCombs could be dangerous or advantageous depending on your degree, as they know the strength of the undergrad programs better than anyone else.
Corporate Communications
What is a prohibitively low GMAT score for a white guy from middle class or higher background? (Originally Posted: 03/29/2007)
For approximately top 15...
Curious... is it 620, 650, 700?
650
And where would that give you odds at admission?
Let's say you had good-excellent everything else.
I'd say 650 probably would get you into something outside of the top 20. You might have a shot at 10-20. Top 10 are almost definitely out unless you have a "wow" factor.
Basically, top schools want their average to be around 700. Therefore, to let in a 650 requires letting in a 750 (at least this is how an admissions book I read described it). There are not a lot of 750s out there and they would tend to gravitate towards the very top. So really, they'd need to admit 2-3 750s to admit 1 650 (who presumably would definitely go there if admitted). There are a lot of 650s out there, so a 650 would be competing with tons of other 650s for a handful of slots.
Bottom line, if you want to go to a top school and you got a 650, I'd say consider retaking.
...
For top schools, if you get over 700 then the GMAT will be a non issue admissions and they will move on to other parts of your application. Significantly less than 700 and you'll have to make up for it elsewhere in your candidacy
...
you really want to get a 700 or higher if you're a white guy.... but i think you're still in the game (though at a disadvantage) with like a 670+ if you've got a strong application otherwise
For a white or Asian guy from any background, 650 GMAT means you are f*cked unless you have military background with leadership experience.
If you're an asian or white guy in finance/consulting and want to get into a MBA business schools">M7 school, you need 730+. For top 15, you can go as low as 680 but anything below that will be very tough to overcome.
um....no.
For MBA business schools">M7 as a white male, below 700 is an uphill battle
Think of it this way: Most MBA business schools">M7 now average like 715, which means the average white dude (or asian dude) has a higher score (730?). If your GMAT is below average for your candidate pool, then something else has to be above average.
Have you guys figured in the impact of international applicants? I would think they tend to be applying with very high GMATs and in droves, distorting the overall applicant pool, I wouldn't be shocked if the admissions rate for domestics is much higher than the overall. I'd suspect with a solid, but not wonderful overall applicant a 680-700 would be in the acceptable range.
One standard deviation lower than the median.
what GMAT score should I be aiming for (Originally Posted: 05/10/2011)
I am heading into my senior year at a unknown state school, applied math major and econ minor, 3.8 GPA. I have one internship in computational physics and I am doing a small internship at a local AM firm, and I will hopefully be able to find something during the Fall since I go to school near NYC.
I want to ultimately go into S&T or AM, but i would do IB for the exit opps. This summer I am studying for the GMAT and I want to see what everyone thinks my goal score should be.
thinking of applying to :
Nova, WUSTL, LSE, Oxford, CMC, and maybe the top MMS programs(duke, uva).
I know with my background I am more suited for an MFE but 1.) I can do the high end math and computing required but it just doesn't interest me 2.) I don't want to be labeled a quant and stuck in quant role 3.) the top programs are very hard to get into. However, I will probably end up applying to the few who accept GMAT just to see. Any help would be great guys, just don't know what score I should be aiming for coming from a non target with not much finance exp.
You shouldn't be even considering b-school until you have 2-3 years experience. MBA programs don't want kids straight out of undergrad, and you shouldn't be trying to complete a degree that's so useful as a career-changer, network expanding experience, and refresher from the grind of finance when you haven't even been in the industry yet.
For any worthwhile MBA programs, your target score should be 700+. 750 puts you above the crowd.
http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/2+2/applicationprocess.html
And in case your response is "HBS is special."
http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/mba/admission/college_seniors.html
"We encourage college seniors to consider applying to the MBA Program." ~ Stanford
http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mba/admissions/faqs.cfm
"We welcome applicants directly from undergraduate programs who are motivated and exhibit strong leadership and managerial potential." ~ Wharton
760+ if you want to really lock that part of your app up, particularly for Oxford and to a lesser degree LSE. I know that sounds high but it should be doable provided you study for a couple months and are good at the verbal part (I would think you could ace the quantitative part considering your background).
However, 710-720 and over is probably fine for most of those places.
edit: Those score are really for the British places you mentioned. Those are on the high-end for most US MSFs except MIT.
If you're applying to MSF and MMS programs (since you probably won't get into an MBA program straight outta undergrad), shoot for mid-high 600s.
UVA MS Commerce and Duke MMS average is around 660-670 I believe. I think most of the decent MSF programs are in that range as well
But obviously you should shoot for 700+ if you plan on using this score for MBA applications down the road
Your background sounds like it would be a good fit for MIT's program. To be competitive there, you would probably want to at least break 700. I just got in with a similar background - 3.8 from unknown state school in math and finance, 1 year of corp strat work experience, and 780 GMAT. Let me know if you have any questions about that program.
Funny you listed those three, I was going to mention them as outliers but figured everyone knew of it. 2+2 is a special program, GSB and Wharton also look for exceptional seniors. However, given the background he provided about himself, it doesn't look exactly like he stands the best chance of admission at any of those three. Search the site and you'll see that every single thing I said is commonly accepted knowledge, same at gmatclub. There will always be exceptions, but I gave relatively safe advice.
Not casting any salt on your own experience, I know you're at HBS now and have successfully navigated the admissions process as well as anyone possibly could, but let's not apply special circumstances to a (seemingly) run of the mill candidate here.
Seconded
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/fulltime/admissions/early-enrollment/
"Contrary to popular belief, Chicago Booth encourages applications from candidates who have less than the average of five years of full-time work experience, or who plan to enroll in the fall after their college graduation."
Look, if half of the Top-8 business schools are ok with students applying directly from undergrad, you can't point to those schools and call them the fringe exceptions. There is a reason why 99% of the students at most business schools have work experience - because 99% of the applicant pool has work experience. While it is true that MOST schools explicitly ask for at least 2 years, this isn't true of ALL schools and it isn't even true of HALF of the best schools.
The OP is a math major with a 3.8 GPA. If you look at the 2+2 Class Profile, the average GPA is a 3.76 and 60% have a "technical" (math falls into this category) educational background. Just because this guy goes to a state school doesn't mean he doesn't have a chance, especially if he breaks 720 GMAT and writes a good narrative for himself. If he was a 3.5 business major, then yeah, your advice would have been appropriate. But he's not, and in my opinion he has a halfway decent shot at getting into HBS.
All that said, it sounds like he wouldn't want to do an MBA or the 2+2 program, so I will concede that. That's a good reason not to apply.
EDIT: One more thing - the fact that I was able to earn admission for myself doesn't really have anything to do with anything in this thread. I just happen to know a number of people at very fine business schools who applied their senior years, got in, and deferred. It frustrates me to no end whenever I hear people tell college seniors not to apply because they don't have a chance, the evidence points in the opposite direction and that kind of advice is dangerous. After all, the worst that can happen if you apply as a senior is you don't get in, but you do learn a lot from the process and are probably more likely to get in the next time you apply.
Thanks for all the help guys. I apologize for not making it clear in the OP, I am looking into MSF and MMs programs. I am well aware I am not ready for an MBA.
And excuse me if you completely disagree with this, but I believe absolutely any and every school whose application includes a fee is going to include some kind of language about "accepting," "encouraging," or "welcoming" applications from just about every possible demographic of potential applicant. Why? Dual-fold. a) Absurd revenue stream: if you're able to pull money from people who might have been self-selectively disinclined to apply because they thought they weren't good enough, chances are they aren't actually a solid enough match for your program and you can quickly weed out their app but still get the same amount of money for nowhere near the resources you spend on a competitive app that runs the full process. b) Prestige: every program wants that miniscule acceptance rate. The more who apply and don't get in, the more people value the commodity you provide, and people remain willing to fork out ever-increasing costs of tuition in the name of self-improvement.
Finally, Top-8? MBA business schools">M7, please.
"Top-8? MBA business schools">M7, please." You killed it right there, A Posse Ad Esse.
A 780 alone will not get you into H/S/W or any top school for that matter. It certainly helps, but there are a large number of factors at play and the GMAT is only one of them.
Someone apparently has my back...
Thanks Trader Joe, I think anyway. Not sure how much of your post was sarcastic. In any case, just to be clear, I certainly do not think that my GMAT score (or my overall profile) qualifies me to get into HSW, or even a top-10 program, and that is largely why I elected to go the MFin route - everything else involves more uncertainty.
Trader Joe, do you mind sharing some thoughts about why you went the PhD route, did you enjoy it, and what you ended up doing with it? I would be curious about your experience.
Dude, i was serious. With MIT MFin degree and 2 years work experience and 780 GMAT, you will be really competitive at HSW MBA. With HSW MBA, your life changes completely and you are on a new career trajectory while everyone else has to struggle. I did PhD because it was free. I did not have to pay any tuition and they paid me $25 K per year stipend. But even though it is from top Business school, it is not even close to HSW MBA degree in market value.
800
what gmat score to shoot for (Originally Posted: 04/08/2013)
...
Aim for the school's (HBS) average at a minimum. 720-730. They say 700+ is "over the bar" but a little extra margin won't hurt - if only for your peace of mind. After prep you should be able to increase your score handily to that level if you put in the time to shore up test-taking strategy/any weaknesses.
Then aim to be exceptional in some other dimension - your work assignments, out-of-work endeavors, and/or something else.
Best of luck.
You should shoot for 800 and then see what happens...
If you got a pretty good score with no prep whatsoever, you should really be aiming for 720+. The fact that you handled ec at a respectable school means you've probably got the brainpower necessary to do so.
What did you get on your SATs?
Comparing SATs to GMAT is a recipe for disaster. Like taking apples and landmines and calling both of them fruit.
660 is a great baseline score. I would say shoot for 80 points above your baseline, settle for 60.
shoot for the moon
Hitting the average of those programs should be the bare minimum for you.
If you're coming from a traditional background and are not an URM, I would shoot for a score well above HBS' mean.
Having peer reviewed dozens of resumes last year, most of the students who fit your profile (white male, banking or consulting background, 3.6+ GPA from a top ~20 school) and were recruiting for consulting/banking scored above 750.
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