Comments (53)

Best Response
Sep 6, 2016

You have limited exit ops because you generally don't model. But the whole point of capital markets is not grinding to the point you burn out and have to exit.

Reality is there are a ton of great roles in the finance world but most people only know M&A and PE.

Sep 10, 2016
TNA:

You have limited exit ops because you generally don't model. But the whole point of capital markets is not grinding to the point you burn out and have to exit.

Reality is there are a ton of great roles in the finance world but most people only know M&A and PE.

Going to have to disagree with you. Capital Markets does model at many banks. At my bank we have quantitative risk models, liquidity risk models, credit risk models, capital risk models, interest rate risk models, and plenty of specialty regulation models. All of this is modeled and handled in the capital markets team. Also the average user on the team knows at least one language Python, R, SAS, SQL, VBA, etc. Maybe I mis interpreted but we spend every day modeling capital market risk and presenting the senior leadership. We also have many people come from and go to top 15 schools. Lastly the exit ops are pretty significant. Plenty of other risk or consulting based positions available. CCAR, Dodd Frank, 2052A regulation, Daily LCR and more. The BIG4 has hired hundreds of risk professionals to meet these demands as well as JP Morgan and other large banks.

    • 2
    • 4
Sep 18, 2016
Praesto:

TNA:You have limited exit ops because you generally don't model. But the whole point of capital markets is not grinding to the point you burn out and have to exit.Reality is there are a ton of great roles in the finance world but most people only know M&A and PE.

Going to have to disagree with you. Capital Markets does model at many banks. At my bank we have quantitative risk models, liquidity risk models, credit risk models, capital risk models, interest rate risk models, and plenty of specialty regulation models. All of this is modeled and handled in the capital markets team. Also the average user on the team knows at least one language Python, R, SAS, SQL, VBA, etc. Maybe I mis interpreted but we spend every day modeling capital market risk and presenting the senior leadership. We also have many people come from and go to top 15 schools. Lastly the exit ops are pretty significant. Plenty of other risk or consulting based positions available. CCAR, Dodd Frank, 2052A regulation, Daily LCR and more. The BIG4 has hired hundreds of risk professionals to meet these demands as well as JP Morgan and other large banks.

Ok, cool, but none of this modelling is relevant to the HF/PE jobs so many covet. Modelling isn't a goal in itself; it's simply an important skill needed to move to many buyside roles.

I come from a DCM background and the main issue as I see it is that you don't build as rigorous a financial analysis skillset as bankers nor as deep a markets understanding as traders...so you are essentially useless to buyside shops.

I had to work very hard on my own time to bridge that skills gap and make it to the buyside.

    • 3
Sep 20, 2016

Any idea what comp is like at the mid to senior levels (obviously it varies, but is it comparable to IBD or S&T within the same institution?)

Sep 20, 2016
Gainalyst2015:

Any idea what comp is like at the mid to senior levels (obviously it varies, but is it comparable to IBD or S&T within the same institution?)

Depends on the institution and the level. People at my bank in their low to mid 30s can clear 200K + deferred compensation.

Sep 17, 2016

Definitely would like to hear from people in ECM or DCM comment on the thread.

Sep 21, 2016

There are a ton of threads on cap mkts already. You might find what you're looking for by looking at a few of them.

Sep 21, 2016

Every one explains and argues what it is(the jack you off middle office men vs the front office) but never admits to working for one.

The most relevant threads are the M&A and Lev Fin threads.
I just want to know if anybody has worked in a IBD debt Capital Markets Group.

Sep 21, 2016

just ECM/DCM, not M&A sorry

Sep 18, 2016

According to Monkey Business, they're the "the illegitimate bastard child between a banker and a trader."

The way I see it: capital markets guys sorta get a grasp on companies but not like bankers, and get a feel for working with markets but not like traders

    • 2
Sep 18, 2016
poopybutthole:

The way I see it: capital markets guys sorta get a grasp on companies but not like bankers, and get a feel for working with markets but not like traders

This is actually very accurate (I spent a summer in a capital markets function). You're kind of in this awkward position between the company and the markets. You might get a decent understanding of the industry vertical(s) you work with and the markets, but you won't be really good at either. When looking to take the next step in your career, it definitely is more valuable to be all in on companies or the markets, instead of "decently good" at both.

Sep 21, 2016

I think capital markets groups are similar to IBD rankings. Just go for the best names first, which is GS/MS and then JPM and Barcap/DB follow up afterwards.

Sep 21, 2016

Not sure if this is necessarily true...JPM, Citi and the like have much larger balance sheets and are much higher on LevFin and other syndicated finance league tables than Goldman and MS. You might see more acquisition financing at GS/MS which provides a much more rigorous analyst experience than a typical refinancing.

Sep 21, 2016
SanityCheck:

I think capital markets groups are similar to IBD rankings. Just go for the best names first, which is GS/MS and then JPM and Barcap/DB follow up afterwards.

This isn't true. For DCM/LevFin, BAML and JPM are top two by far then Citi. MS and GS are M&A shops and are not as strong as BAML and JPM because they lack the retail presence and size of the balance sheet. As always, if you want to learn more, go check out the Thomson league tables.

Sep 21, 2016

Is that pretty much agreed upon?

Also, within Capital Markets groups in terms of exit opps-

  1. Leveraged Finance (if even considered with the others)- PE
  2. ECM- coverage group, ECM related HF
  3. DCM- stay at bank move to other group, Treasury department of company?

I'm sure there are many more, but these seem to be the most common.

Sep 21, 2016

When I mentioned capital markets I didn't include Levfin.

If that's the case, then you should really look at not rankings but the role of the group. BAML levfin for example actually does modeling and I think JPM as well.

I don't agree with Citi levfin being top for anything but feel free to argue that alongside the other BB levfin teams that only do pricing and send you 1 obsolete page after a week of requests.

Sep 21, 2016

GS, JPM, and MS should all be great shops. Other BBs too...

Sep 21, 2016

Interested in capital markets too

Sep 21, 2016

CM seems really interesting. I've been thinking about trying to break in, and I like the exposure to S&T and IBD.

Sep 20, 2016

It really comes down to what you are trying to do long-term. If you are wanting to get to the buyside, see the above comments as to why it will be more difficult for capital markets guys. If you're looking to be a career banker - then CM can certainly be a great choice. Just know you'll be traveling a lot more than some of the other groups and given the economics, you'll need to crank out a lot more deals each year to be on a similar comp-level to some of the other industry / product groups

Sep 21, 2016

This board struggles with google/bing

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalmarkets...

Sep 20, 2016

Spoke to a DCM analyst working at a top bank. This kid was on his way to play soccer with his boys at 4pm during the week. He just goes "look, gotta rush because I'm on my way to play soccer at the park" while searching for his cleats and small shorts. Nothing bad working in cap markets.

Except the downfall in exit opps, if you care about that sort of thing

Sep 21, 2016

I thought most capital markets people are there to stay....and in some cases, capital markets IS IBD. Not in the traditional M&A industry connections sense, but hey, somebody's gotta specialize in the actual PRODUCTS that the ibank offers.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

Sep 21, 2016

i agree. equity and debt capital markets are part of the IBD...though at times i've seen some banks have separate corp. fin. and IB divisions. Either ways, capital market analysts form a part of the product group...or so to say providers of "the market solution" that the IBs offer.

Sep 20, 2016

Its funny because all the FT analysts want industry coverage or M&A, but all of the associates want capital markets (even a lot of the analysts). When you want the exit, it makes sense to have the industry background, even though it doesn't really matter. You are not going to bring any unique industry/investment perspective to any fund after two years as an analyst...no matter what you think.

Sep 21, 2016

Great link, thanks!

Sep 20, 2016

Wanted to chime in - As someone actually in capital markets, it is pretty easy to see why it is generally looked down upon compared to IBD. Firstly, your exit opportunities are rather limited. IB and consulting are really popular not only because they pay well, but because they provide exit opps to a variety of places. GCM is a relatively niche skillset that generally does not transfer well to other roles. You will get virtually no modeling experience and won't really get to think on the business side of transactions. You will also get a very surface level understanding of companies that you are working with as you pretty only care from a rather narrow product point of view. From what I have seen, the exit opportunities are either to traditional IBD, business school, or corporate role (though not really strategy or development). It can also become really mind numbing as a lot of DCM and ECM is very process driven and deals start being the same when you've seen the same thing 10x in a year with minimal changes. Also, to those who say to just progress in GCM, it isn't as easy as it sounds. GCM is still highly competitive and you aren't guaranteed to keep advancing especially as like others have said, people realize that GCM is a pretty decent spot to be. There are far fewer GCM roles than traditional IBD roles out there, and even fewer decent platforms which pay their GCM guys well. When you hit your wall and are forced out, where will you go that will have somewhat comparable compensation?

With that said, the the main pro of GCM is that it generally has solid work/life balance if there aren't that many issuances. Hours are 60-75/week and you generally have weekends free (although you must still be on call), but YMMV depending on your direct reports. With that said though, the hours in GCM are very intense and stressful and you will often not realize that 10 hours have passed by. What I have experienced has essentially been said over and over again on this forum, though I just wanted to say it again as someone who has capital markets experience and is not just some college student just spouting his mouth.

To sum it up:
Less desirable experiences --> Less Exit Opps --> Difficult to find comparable paying opportunities

    • 3
Sep 20, 2016

Do you mind speaking about comp in capital markets? It seems as though ER, S&T, AM, etc. get paid a little bit less than IBD. From what I've read they tend to get 100-110K all in (including bonus) for 1st year hires. I know that BB IBD is 85k base but an upwards of 60-70k bonus if you're a top bucket.

Sep 21, 2016

Generally street. Not sure how it performs past analyst level, but I heard associates is pretty in line with street at my firm too. I imagine that comp probably falls off a bit at the higher level, though I have heard of multi millions (over 3) being paid out to very strong MDs, but that is probably a massive outlier.

Sep 21, 2016

top right corner. thing called a search function. use it.

Sep 21, 2016

Capital Markets is a desk that enables you to go fucking search for shit

Sep 21, 2016

troll

kid as 200 BPs, sufficient to at least know what capital markets is.

Sep 20, 2016

Im an underclassmen in college and I've been really leaning towards ECM as a career but everyone I talk to just shoots it down because of "no exit opps and no modeling". Tbh I kind of like being able to have a good mix of company/market knowledge and some type of banking experience, especially in an ECM Originations team. Also the pay and hours are pretty nice for FO, especially compared to traditional banking.

Only concern I have about ECM is if you're more senior like a VP, if you get laid off would it be much harder to find a job at another bank? and are ECM guys really the first to go when banks cut down on staff? Any guys w/ ECM experience would be great.

I've also read that if you're in ECM you can probably make the jump to a long/short equity fund if you're good, how much truth is there too that, because I'm also very interested in the PM role at a HF wayy later down the road?

Sep 21, 2016

bump

Sep 21, 2016
Comment
Sep 21, 2016