9/12/12

I'm going to keep this short because I know there's no way I can print what I really think without inciting a flame war of epic proportions. J. Christopher Stevens, the U.S. Ambassador to Libya, was murdered by Muslim extremists in Benghazi today. Protesters stormed the US Consulate and burned it to the ground. Stevens was suffocated in his car, and the three diplomats with him were shot to death.

This is in addition to the attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Cairo yesterday.

How should the U.S. respond?

Comments (190)

9/12/12

you can change the regime, but you can't change the people.

9/12/12

Is this enough provocation for boots on the ground?

9/12/12

Really sad/fucked up situation. My view has always been to stay the fuck out of Middle Eastern affairs, but I realize it's a complicated issue.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

9/12/12

Killing a US diplomat is serious enough to incite military action but I believe it will not happen b/c in 2 months we have an election and Obama wont risk sending troops to Libya after his main campaign strategy was to be different from the Bush era that sent troops in too quickly.

9/12/12

Its a really sad thing, all those people clearly are more cult followers than anything else by their behavior. I know I bash America every once in a while, but seeing this happening as a western makes me feel as if those things, those creatures come from the fucking dark ages. There should be a "mock mohammed (or however it is written) day" in all western nations, come and get us all.

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus

Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!

9/12/12

I don't want another war, but "strong condemnation" is a wholly inadequate response. I would like any retaliation to specifically target the group that attacked the embassy. Drone strikes, special forces raids, etc. We don't need to "fix" Libya/Egypt...I doubt that's even possible.

9/12/12

This is why the West should never intervene in other countries, especially not under the terribly fake message of "protecting the people" that was used in Libya and is being used in Syria. The 'rebels' are just bands of different militia who do NOT have the Libyan people's best interests at heart and just want power for themselves.

9/12/12

The issue is, we are so jaded from years of conflicts over there that the response is very well going to be muted. In fact, I didn't even realize they stormed it and burned it until I read your post this morning. Our media is fucking disgraceful, and for this to come right after the anniversary of September 11th it really gets me going. Obama will surely do little because he has an election coming up. Frankly, it reminds me how pathetic our leaders are if they allow attacks like this to go unpunished. You simply can't let this go. It would be shameful if we did.

9/12/12
Addinator:

The issue is, we are so jaded from years of conflicts over there that the response is very well going to be muted. In fact, I didn't even realize they stormed it and burned it until I read your post this morning. Our media is fucking disgraceful, and for this to come right after the anniversary of September 11th it really gets me going. Obama will surely do little because he has an election coming up. Frankly, it reminds me how pathetic our leaders are if they allow attacks like this to go unpunished. You simply can't let this go. It would be shameful if we did.

Don't worry, even when our pussy-in-chief doesn't authorize it, we're still taking care of business when something happens to one of our own. You just won't hear him take credit for it.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12

I'd wager the retaliation for this will be more 'Munich' style than full boots on the ground (which is a stupid idea)

9/12/12

It's always sad to see death. You have to remember that Libya is still a war zone.

Not to be controversial, but maybe an appropriate response would be to leave the country (Libya). I mean Obama decided to pick sides in a civil war and, through NATO, repeatedly bomb the country and depose its dictator. The attack on the embassy in Libya is a direct consequence of US presence there and US involvement in the Libyan war and, most likely, continued involvement in the internal affairs of the country.

These are all post-colonial countries/societies (Middle East & North Africa). It's been less than a generation/lifetime since most of them got rid of the previous imperial occupiers (Britain, France & Italy) after the fall of the Ottoman empire. Maybe it's best if the US doesn't seem like it's taking their place through occupations, bombing and support of various different political factions/regimes.

Maybe this incident could have been avoided if Obama had sought congressional approval of the war. I don't know.

9/12/12

Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive. They counted wrong -- Ronald Reagan

That being said, USA is always sending in civilian contractors and SpecOps teams to do dirty shit. If you think you can burn down an American embassy and kill our ambassadors without there being repercussions, you are wrong.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12

I'm going to ask the obvious question; why didnt the Marines stationed there send a couple hundred of these fucks with the Ambassador to the great beyond? Pretty sure protecting the Ambassador is rather high on the list when you're an embassy guard. Pretty embarassing for them and infuriating for me.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12

happypantsmcgee:
I'm going to ask the obvious question; why didnt the Marines stationed there send a couple hundred of these fucks with the Ambassador to the great beyond? Pretty sure protecting the Ambassador is rather high on the list when you're an embassy guard. Pretty embarassing for them and infuriating for me.

Knowing a little bit about how MSG works, I think I can answer this one. First, this was a consulate and not an embassy, so there's a better than 50/50 shot that there were no Marine guards there.

It's a common misconception that the Marine Security Guard detail at an embassy is there to protect the embassy and/or embassy personnel. This is simply not the case. The MSG has one mission and one mission only: to protect (and, in the event of being overrun, destroy) classified information. That's it. Not to repel assaults, not to be bodyguards, and not function as an assault force.

The security of the embassy is the responsibility of the embassy security office and the local police. Which speaks to a much larger problem in this case: the local police in both Cairo and Benghazi tasked with protecting the embassy (and consulate, respectively) allowed this to happen.

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:
happypantsmcgee:

I'm going to ask the obvious question; why didnt the Marines stationed there send a couple hundred of these fucks with the Ambassador to the great beyond? Pretty sure protecting the Ambassador is rather high on the list when you're an embassy guard. Pretty embarassing for them and infuriating for me.

Knowing a little bit about how MSG works, I think I can answer this one. First, this was a consulate and not an embassy, so there's a better than 50/50 shot that there were no Marine guards there.

It's a common misconception that the Marine Security Guard detail at an embassy is there to protect the embassy and/or embassy personnel. This is simply not the case. The MSG has one mission and one mission only: to protect (and, in the event of being overrun, destroy) classified information. That's it. Not to repel assaults, not to be bodyguards, and not function as an assault force.

The security of the embassy is the responsibility of the embassy security office and the local police. Which speaks to a much larger problem in this case: the local police in both Cairo and Benghazi tasked with protecting the embassy (and consulate, respectively) allowed this to happen.

Interesting, I did not know that was the case. Makes a lot more sense now.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:

why didnt the Marines stationed there send a couple hundred of these fucks with the Ambassador to the great beyond?

I was wondering the same thing, guarding embassies is one of the things Marines are known for. Right off the bat, there's more going on here than the news is reporting or maybe even knows about. First ambassador to die since 1979, when our Afghanistan campaign against the Soviets started: shady.

As for the Israeli based in Cali: how about spouting off from Israel and drawing fire to Israel. Be a man about it instead of having us take the bullet. "I didn't know this would cause this reaction": bullshit, you poke a hornet's nest and this is what they do. You want to stir the pot, do it at YOUR cost, not OURS. It's not like we don't do enough proping up that tiny speck of nothing...don't make our job harder. Take this literally, it's not a judgement of Israel one way or the other, I'm just commenting on this incident.

I'm not sure what people think sending troops in will accomplish, it's a civil war and it will just become the common denominator to hate us. Drone / special force strikes to further our goals is more likely to get better results for the time being...and yes, this president authorizes them. I'm sure the CIA is going to be working overtime snuffing baddies now, they're only human and will want revenge: they also can kill with a good deal more impunity than troops that can be openly cited in the larger relationship management environment.

Ultimately, MENA countries are their own worst enemy. Yeah, the US wants oil and all that, but we don't absolutely need it from them. More important is regional stability: people criticize the US for managing the chaos over there, but I'm thinking unmitigated war would be a total disaster. Another US objective is to prevent the Chinese and Russians from setting up camp....then MENA pplz would really be fucked. Look at our invasion of Afghanistan, and look at the Soviet invasion. No comparison.

The timing, well it sucks. Lots of raw nerves over here, and if we held ourselves to the same shitty logic as the MENA whakos, we'd be going in for honor kills right now. I guess this is one of the reasons we're BETTER THAN THEM. My personal opinion: to hell with MENA. Manage the chaos in a way that's beneficial to us, leave the door open for them to be constructive (not holding my breath) and limit our losses. Just because they're a mess doesn't mean we have to be.

Get busy living

9/12/12

Obama is such a bitch

McCain would've handled these clowns

9/12/12

Killing a diplomat will probably never warrant sending troops to a country, in the public's eyes, regardless of an election. This does not exclude covert action. I'm sure we have "Analysts" on the ground working their contacts to bring down the people responsible.

9/12/12

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

Yep, a movie directed by a 'Jewish Real Estate Developer' so I'm sure that helped.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

Yep, a movie directed by a 'Jewish Real Estate Developer' so I'm sure that helped.

In that case - and not that it makes much of a difference - isn't it a little misleading to say our ambassador was "assassinated" when really he was just one of the people who got killed by this mob of reckless monkeys? If that's the case, I think we should probably be focusing on said monkeys and not trying to criticize US foreign policy and involvement in Libyan civil war.

And to echo a few others, I'd venture to guess that at least a few of the people involved in the killing are already... indisposed. Just won't be making front page news any time soon.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12

I am just curious, do any of you guys know that movie? I assume few of us watched that, then how do people in Libya notice that??

9/12/12
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

My drinkin' problem left today, she packed up all her bags and walked away.

9/12/12
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

This video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmodVun16Q4

Valor is of no service, chance rules all, and the bravest often fall by the hands of cowards. - Tacitus

Dr. Nick Riviera: Hey, don't worry. You don't have to make up stories here. Save that for court!

9/12/12
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12
BlackHat:
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

Well said.

9/12/12
peterg:
BlackHat:
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

Well said.

Fucking ridiculous. Just read this:

The New York Times:

Bracing for trouble before the start of the protests here and in Libya, the American Embassy released a statement shortly after noon that appeared to refer to Terry Jones, a Florida pastor who promoted the video: "The United States Embassy in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims -- as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions." It later denounced the "unjustified breach of our embassy."

So....people just need to learn to not hurt Muslim's feelings.

9/12/12
BlackHat:
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

This was not in retaliation to the film. Just because they said it was, doesn't mean it was. In Egypt, a similar protest turned up with loud noises and sticks. Machine Guns and an RPG in Libya? It was an Al Qaeda hit, disguised inside a riot group. This was an assassination.

9/12/12
trazer985:
BlackHat:
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

This was not in retaliation to the film. Just because they said it was, doesn't mean it was. In Egypt, a similar protest turned up with loud noises and sticks. Machine Guns and an RPG in Libya? It was an Al Qaeda hit, disguised inside a riot group. This was an assassination.

very likely. we assassinated a top leader of ansar al-sharia back in june and they were swearing revenge since then. why State did not pull its head out of its ass and provide better security for our consulates all across MENA (libyan security contractors? are you fucking kidding me???) is a mystery to me.

9/12/12
fermion:
trazer985:
BlackHat:
Kenny Powers:
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

"over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad" - AP

That doesn't make it justified though. For some reason Islam has a particular sensitivity to criticism, which I can vouch for as being a cultural thing (every Middle Eastern man is overly sensitive to being emasculated, as are most Europeans net of England) but hell, rip on Jesus or Buddha or Zeus all you want and nobody else is going to blow up your embassy for it. These guys are special apparently.

This was not in retaliation to the film. Just because they said it was, doesn't mean it was. In Egypt, a similar protest turned up with loud noises and sticks. Machine Guns and an RPG in Libya? It was an Al Qaeda hit, disguised inside a riot group. This was an assassination.

very likely. we assassinated a top leader of ansar al-sharia back in june and they were swearing revenge since then. why State did not pull its head out of its ass and provide better security for our consulates all across MENA (libyan security contractors? are you fucking kidding me???) is a mystery to me.

Finally someone said it. The strike on the U.S consulate and Ambassador Stevens was a calculated, pre-meditated terrorist attack. This whole protest thing is just a decoy, smoke and mirror to provide cover for the assassins. It is no coincidence that they strike on the anniversary of Sep. 11th even thou that movie has been out for months now. CNN just did a segment on this.

The fact of matter is Al-Qaeda and its affiliates have been at war with the U.S and have been looking for every opportunities to strike. To say that Ambassador Stevens was killed because of some amateur film production about Mohammad is like saying that WTCs were hit because the hijackers didnt like the movie they were showing on the airplanes.

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.

9/12/12
BlackHat:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this in retaliation to a movie?

Yes here are the trailers (sorry don't know how to embed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntgzoE7rU9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AccGMUIQQRE

The fact that they would get so pissed off about something so stupid shows how insane Middle Eastern Muslims are.

9/12/12

Statement by the President on the Attack in Benghazi

I strongly condemn the outrageous attack on our diplomatic facility in Benghazi, which took the lives of four Americans, including Ambassador Chris Stevens. Right now, the American people have the families of those we lost in our thoughts and prayers. They exemplified America's commitment to freedom, justice, and partnership with nations and people around the globe, and stand in stark contrast to those who callously took their lives.

I have directed my Administration to provide all necessary resources to support the security of our personnel in Libya, and to increase security at our diplomatic posts around the globe. While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants.

On a personal note, Chris was a courageous and exemplary representative of the United States. Throughout the Libyan revolution, he selflessly served our country and the Libyan people at our mission in Benghazi. As Ambassador in Tripoli, he has supported Libya's transition to democracy. His legacy will endure wherever human beings reach for liberty and justice. I am profoundly grateful for his service to my Administration, and deeply saddened by this loss.

The brave Americans we lost represent the extraordinary service and sacrifices that our civilians make every day around the globe. As we stand united with their families, let us now redouble our own efforts to carry their work forward.

official statement by the pres

9/12/12

There is no solution to the Middle East. It all comes back to the religion and how much it contrasts with Western ideals. I know there are peaceful practitioners of Islam and Muslim religions as I'm so often reminded but that's obviously not the case in these areas. There's really no reason to continue dumping aid into these countries that mostly hate America. We have tried working with them and nothing has really changed. On the other hand, the more you try to fight, the more intense there hate gets. I'm not advocating this at all but the only way any country could win a war in the middle east would be to wipe out the country. Trying to do what the US has been doing for the past few years is a waste of time, money, and lives.

9/12/12

Happy,

Just as I suspected, there were no Marines there:

Nearly a dozen Americans were inside the consulate at the time, guarded only by Libyan security. For nearly 20 minutes the Libyan guards exchanged fire with the attackers, who hurled a firebomb inside.

http://gma.yahoo.com/u-s--ambassador-to-libya-chri...

Pretty common for a consulate, actually. We can't be everywhere.

But we're heading there now:

Motherfuckers.

9/12/12

Looks like they decided to parade the Ambassador's body around the town square when they were done:

Filthy, backward fucking savages.

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:

backward fucking savages

Get busy living

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:

Filthy, backward fucking savages.

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:

Filthy, backward fucking savages.

This. I normally like take the stance that there are no "savage" cultures, but this is something out of the dark ages. Over a virtually unknown film. The US has it's share of religious fundamentalists. But nobody is calling for a holy war because somebody ridiculed Christianity.

We cannot fix the MENA. Our arguments can be well reasoned and sympathetic. We can provide them with aid and financial incentives. But, it doesn't matter if they are still such a religious society. Big Macs and iPods are irrelevant if an omnipotent being is commanding you to wage war against another culture.

9/12/12

this is mogadishu revisited.

don't see how there will not be a military reaction now.

9/12/12


Fuck Libya

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Best Response
9/12/12

Considering how much the anointed one blames Bush for everything, you'd think he would have learned what not to do. You help overthrow a country and then act surprised when chaos ensues. This is horrible and sad, but a further reminder that we should mind our own business.

And while I instinctively want to call for retaliation or call these people animals, it was the US which bombed from afar, threw the country in chaos and caused a lot of this.

Thanks Obama.

9/12/12
TNA:

Considering how much the anointed one blames Bush for everything, you'd think he would have learned what not to do. You help overthrow a country and then act surprised when chaos ensues. This is horrible and sad, but a further reminder that we should mind our own business.

And while I instinctively want to call for retaliation or call these people animals, it was the US which bombed from afar, threw the country in chaos and caused a lot of this.

Thanks Obama.

as physically ill as i feel about this murder, and as much as i crave revenge for this, i agree with you. we have to stop going around the world putting pins in rattlesnakes. failing that, we have to expect that it is going to get us bit.

gaddafi was a murdering son of a bitch, but he was a murdering son of a bitch who was able to keep al qaeda and other far worse sons of bitches out of libya for the most part. same with hussein. our whole approach of regime change with no thought as to what happens apres le deluge leads to problems like in egypt, libya, iraq and afghanistan.

we are making the SAME MISTAKE in real time in syria right now. what happens when assad is gone? what kinds of snakes pop up when there is anarchy there? how many more americans will be dragged out and barbarously murdered then?

9/12/12
fermion:
TNA:

Considering how much the anointed one blames Bush for everything, you'd think he would have learned what not to do. You help overthrow a country and then act surprised when chaos ensues. This is horrible and sad, but a further reminder that we should mind our own business.

And while I instinctively want to call for retaliation or call these people animals, it was the US which bombed from afar, threw the country in chaos and caused a lot of this.

Thanks Obama.

as physically ill as i feel about this murder, and as much as i crave revenge for this, i agree with you. we have to stop going around the world putting pins in rattlesnakes. failing that, we have to expect that it is going to get us bit.

gaddafi was a murdering son of a bitch, but he was a murdering son of a bitch who was able to keep al qaeda and other far worse sons of bitches out of libya for the most part. same with hussein. our whole approach of regime change with no thought as to what happens apres le deluge leads to problems like in egypt, libya, iraq and afghanistan.

we are making the SAME MISTAKE in real time in syria right now. what happens when assad is gone? what kinds of snakes pop up when there is anarchy there? how many more americans will be dragged out and barbarously murdered then?

Time to start rooting for Assad.

9/12/12
Mr. Hansen:
fermion:
TNA:

Considering how much the anointed one blames Bush for everything, you'd think he would have learned what not to do. You help overthrow a country and then act surprised when chaos ensues. This is horrible and sad, but a further reminder that we should mind our own business.

And while I instinctively want to call for retaliation or call these people animals, it was the US which bombed from afar, threw the country in chaos and caused a lot of this.

Thanks Obama.

as physically ill as i feel about this murder, and as much as i crave revenge for this, i agree with you. we have to stop going around the world putting pins in rattlesnakes. failing that, we have to expect that it is going to get us bit.

gaddafi was a murdering son of a bitch, but he was a murdering son of a bitch who was able to keep al qaeda and other far worse sons of bitches out of libya for the most part. same with hussein. our whole approach of regime change with no thought as to what happens apres le deluge leads to problems like in egypt, libya, iraq and afghanistan.

we are making the SAME MISTAKE in real time in syria right now. what happens when assad is gone? what kinds of snakes pop up when there is anarchy there? how many more americans will be dragged out and barbarously murdered then?

Time to start rooting for Assad.

Yeah, its not PC, but I've been weary from the start of this "Arab Spring." Multiculturalists mouth banalities about how Islam is inherently peaceful and it's just a ragtag of fundamentalists that are the problem. I don't believe that islamofriendly crap for a second. All Christains, Jews, Atheists, freethinkers, and other religious minorities in Egypt, Libya, et al. are gonna get royally fucked when Islamic democracy kicks in in these countries. (Full discouslure: I'm an atheist, and dislike all religions, but recognize that some are more dangerous and stupid than others)

9/12/12
TNA:

while I instinctively want to call for retaliation or call these people animals, it was the US which bombed from afar, threw the country in chaos and caused a lot of this.

Mostly agree. On a side note: a lot of people who said things like this in 2003 and were branded 'traitorous eeeevil liberals'. C'mon, don't you want to go fight them and save the world? What's the matter, you a pussy? You hate America?

Imagine being fucked with like this by your whole social network over an extended period of time, and you'll understand the following statement: "I'm glad Romeny is losing. Not because I love Obama, but because every GOP person I know is incredibly depressed. Attn GOP: you're not the only one who suffered, and now you know how it feels to be kicked while you're down. But I'm not here to make nice: fuck yourselves, then kill yourselves and rot in hell for all I care. Thanks."

Get busy living

9/12/12

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

9/12/12
TheKing:

--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

yeah man, Daniel Plainview style... DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN !!!

9/12/12
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

9/12/12
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

9/12/12
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

9/12/12

Relinquis:
TheKing:
Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

Obviously, I was being hyperbolic. But, considering the insanity of what they did to the Diplomat (and their rationale), it isn't that far fetched of a response if we were to take their route of insane disproportionate retaliations for the wrong reasons.

Watch the trailers to the "movie" and realize how completely insane their actions were. We're talking about some guy's bullshit backyard movie for YouTube, not some major Hollywood production. To kill any man over the film is insane, let alone a man who had nothing to do with its creation. This shows how incredibly insecure these people are about their so-called "beliefs" that don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

To add: the United States is 100% responsible for the Libyan rebels finding and killing Ghadaffi. It was our UAVs that tracked him and tipped off the rebels to his location. Without us, Ghadaffi likely gets away to live and fight another day.

This is how they thank us?

9/12/12
TheKing:
Relinquis:
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

Obviously, I was being hyperbolic. But, considering the insanity of what they did to the Diplomat (and their rationale), it isn't that far fetched of a response if we were to take their route of insane disproportionate retaliations for the wrong reasons.

Watch the trailers to the "movie" and realize how completely insane their actions were. We're talking about some guy's bullshit backyard movie for YouTube, not some major Hollywood production. To kill any man over the film is insane, let alone a man who had nothing to do with its creation. This shows how incredibly insecure these people are about their so-called "beliefs" that don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

To add: the United States is 100% responsible for the Libyan rebels finding and killing Ghadaffi. It was our UAVs that tracked him and tipped off the rebels to his location. Without us, Ghadaffi likely gets away to live and fight another day.

This is how they thank us?

Agree with the sentiment. Also realize: there are a ton of factions and almost no central decision making. We're dealing with a civil war and it's a free for all. It's a mess

I'm curious how and why some obscure film made by an Israeli is the spark that lit the gas. Everyone knows what happens when art like this is produced, so I question WHY it was produced, and WHY at this time. In light of the fact that America is the one bleeding for it as opposed to the author's homeland, seriously, something's not right. Is this part of an intelligence operation?

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
TheKing:
Relinquis:
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

Obviously, I was being hyperbolic. But, considering the insanity of what they did to the Diplomat (and their rationale), it isn't that far fetched of a response if we were to take their route of insane disproportionate retaliations for the wrong reasons.

Watch the trailers to the "movie" and realize how completely insane their actions were. We're talking about some guy's bullshit backyard movie for YouTube, not some major Hollywood production. To kill any man over the film is insane, let alone a man who had nothing to do with its creation. This shows how incredibly insecure these people are about their so-called "beliefs" that don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

To add: the United States is 100% responsible for the Libyan rebels finding and killing Ghadaffi. It was our UAVs that tracked him and tipped off the rebels to his location. Without us, Ghadaffi likely gets away to live and fight another day.

This is how they thank us?

Agree with the sentiment. Also realize: there are a ton of factions and almost no central decision making. We're dealing with a civil war and it's a free for all. It's a mess

I'm curious how and why some obscure film made by an Israeli is the spark that lit the gas. Everyone knows what happens when art like this is produced, so I question WHY it was produced, and WHY at this time. In light of the fact that America is the one bleeding for it as opposed to the author's homeland, seriously, something's not right. Is this part of an intelligence operation?

i have no beef with israel and cherish our freedom of expression, but perhaps next time, this sam bacile fellow can make this film back in his homeland. if, despite his success and prosperity in the US, he still identifies himself as an "israeli jew," then he is more of a foreign visitor rather than a fellow american, and i don't feel protecting the speech of a guest is worth the lives of three of our diplomats and two of our marines.

9/12/12
fermion:
UFOinsider:
TheKing:
Relinquis:
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

Obviously, I was being hyperbolic. But, considering the insanity of what they did to the Diplomat (and their rationale), it isn't that far fetched of a response if we were to take their route of insane disproportionate retaliations for the wrong reasons.

Watch the trailers to the "movie" and realize how completely insane their actions were. We're talking about some guy's bullshit backyard movie for YouTube, not some major Hollywood production. To kill any man over the film is insane, let alone a man who had nothing to do with its creation. This shows how incredibly insecure these people are about their so-called "beliefs" that don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

To add: the United States is 100% responsible for the Libyan rebels finding and killing Ghadaffi. It was our UAVs that tracked him and tipped off the rebels to his location. Without us, Ghadaffi likely gets away to live and fight another day.

This is how they thank us?

Agree with the sentiment. Also realize: there are a ton of factions and almost no central decision making. We're dealing with a civil war and it's a free for all. It's a mess

I'm curious how and why some obscure film made by an Israeli is the spark that lit the gas. Everyone knows what happens when art like this is produced, so I question WHY it was produced, and WHY at this time. In light of the fact that America is the one bleeding for it as opposed to the author's homeland, seriously, something's not right. Is this part of an intelligence operation?

i have no beef with israel and cherish our freedom of expression, but perhaps next time, this sam bacile fellow can make this film back in his homeland. if, despite his success and prosperity in the US, he still identifies himself as an "israeli jew," then he is more of a foreign visitor rather than a fellow american, and i don't feel protecting the speech of a guest is worth the lives of three of our diplomats and two of our marines.

Yeah, keep on justifying the behavior of those savages.

You don't feel protecting free speech is worth American lives? I sure am glad you weren't the one in charge 221 years ago.

9/12/12
holla_back:
fermion:
UFOinsider:
TheKing:
Relinquis:
TheKing:

Seeing the images of them dragging his body through the streets is sending me into an enraged frenzy.

--Bomb Libya until nothing is left but a barren moonscape
--Stick a giant hose into the ground to suck out any natural resources and send them back to America

Religion poisons everything.

Shocking... All it took was a photo (as gruesome as it is) of one dead American to get you to advocate genocide and an imperial project. I suppose one doesn't need religion to end up with support for such crimes (as an atheist it saddens me to say this).

That's all it took to rid you of your humanity. These guys have been fighting a civil war for over a year and have seen American led NATO bombs rip through their country and communities. Some of the rebels in Libya had witnessed America's project in Iraq first hand.

I understand your emotions and the rage, and it probably isn't my place to ask you to consider the situation dispassionately at the moment. I just hope it doesn't turn you into your perceived enemy.

War poisons everything.

Obviously, I was being hyperbolic. But, considering the insanity of what they did to the Diplomat (and their rationale), it isn't that far fetched of a response if we were to take their route of insane disproportionate retaliations for the wrong reasons.

Watch the trailers to the "movie" and realize how completely insane their actions were. We're talking about some guy's bullshit backyard movie for YouTube, not some major Hollywood production. To kill any man over the film is insane, let alone a man who had nothing to do with its creation. This shows how incredibly insecure these people are about their so-called "beliefs" that don't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

To add: the United States is 100% responsible for the Libyan rebels finding and killing Ghadaffi. It was our UAVs that tracked him and tipped off the rebels to his location. Without us, Ghadaffi likely gets away to live and fight another day.

This is how they thank us?

Agree with the sentiment. Also realize: there are a ton of factions and almost no central decision making. We're dealing with a civil war and it's a free for all. It's a mess

I'm curious how and why some obscure film made by an Israeli is the spark that lit the gas. Everyone knows what happens when art like this is produced, so I question WHY it was produced, and WHY at this time. In light of the fact that America is the one bleeding for it as opposed to the author's homeland, seriously, something's not right. Is this part of an intelligence operation?

i have no beef with israel and cherish our freedom of expression, but perhaps next time, this sam bacile fellow can make this film back in his homeland. if, despite his success and prosperity in the US, he still identifies himself as an "israeli jew," then he is more of a foreign visitor rather than a fellow american, and i don't feel protecting the speech of a guest is worth the lives of three of our diplomats and two of our marines.

Yeah, keep on justifying the behavior of those savages.

You don't feel protecting free speech is worth American lives? I sure am glad you weren't the one in charge 221 years ago.

that's a shabby straw man argument, and i hope we are all collectively offended by your attempt to insult the intelligence of this entire board. i never justified any murder by these savages. i am saying that it is not worth a single american life to defend the speech of a non-american who IDENTIFIES HIMSELF AS AN ISRAELI JEW WHEN AMERICA HAS GIVEN HIM SO MUCH SAFETY, PROSPERITY AND WEALTH.

9/12/12

As distasteful as I find the film clip, I don't think that it is the main cause of the attack on the consulate, nor do I think you should censor yourselves excessively for fear of attack.

This is just my opinion (not necessarily fact), but I think it is very likely that these particular guys just wanted an excuse to attack the US consulate on their land. It was inevitable. The 9/11 attacks anniversary and that film is probably just convenient and a good propaganda tool for them to intimidate their own communities and recruit other rebels to their agenda of limiting US influence in their country.

I'm not an expert on Libyan history, but know enough from reading about the fall of the Ottoman empire to recognise their tradition of fighting foreign presence in their land (goes back to the days of the Italian occupation) and the importance of their religion and tribalism in these efforts. Not to mention the presence in Libya of many prisoners and rebels who had fought in Iraq. These are guys who have been through war as unorganised groups, not as a centrally controlled military.

There is a reason that Afghanistan turned into a breeding ground for anti-western and ideologically driven groups after the long war with the Soviets. It's what people turn to when other part of society are torn through war. They turn to racist nationalism, or failing that, to tribalism and / or religion.

These guys don't have an institutional or political framework/hierarchy like Iran's theocracy, or the Muslim Brotherhood (ruling party) in Egypt. They don't have an address or centralised decision making. So I wouldn't expect loyalty from a lot of the rebels and would expect it is difficult to reach agreements with them or observe "rational" thought out military or political action. Just seemingly random violence / resistance. This is also what will make it very difficult for the new regimes to deal with them as repression leads to more radicalisation.

Egypt and Tunisia are better positioned as their transitions weren't armed and the Islamist movements there are more institutionalised into political parties and such, but it is still early days. Turkey is much further along. I think this is the only chance for a kind of political reformation within Islam over the next 50 - 100 years. The big threat to their people is if these movements get fused with the military/security forces like in Pakistan and other borderline failed states.

Not to extrapolate too much from one event, but it seems like ex-CIA guys like Robert Baer (See No Evil, which the movie Syriana was loosely based on) and Michael Scheuer (critical of the Libyan intervention) were right in their diagnosis of what motivates Islamic anti-west resistance groups. I've read one of Baer's books and have skimmed through Scheuer's. I don't agree with some of it (especially Scheuer's military "solution"), but their views are worth checking out. I'd also recommend Adam Curtis' documentary "The Power of Nightmares". Its dated, but gives good historical background and a slightly different take from the CIA guys. I think its on youtube.

9/12/12
Relinquis:

This is just my opinion (not necessarily fact), but I think it is very likely that these particular guys just wanted an excuse to attack the US consulate on their land.

Interesting. Damn, I'm in the wrong job, I spent the whole day reading about this.

Get busy living

9/12/12

I'll make a longer post on this thread later, but...

Obama needs to do what Thomas Jefferson did in a earlier time. You can not kill an American Ambassador and get away with it. We need to hunt those guys down, get 'em dead or alive.

9/12/12

President Obama has to address the nation on this doesn't he? Theres just no two ways about it.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:

President Obama has to address the nation on this doesn't he? Theres just no two ways about it.

He addressed it this morning:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/obama-lib...

Just, fuck dude. This shit is so insane.

9/12/12

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:

Fuck you Libya.
http://www.local12.com/content/breaking_news/story...

"The Marines are members of an elite group known as a Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team, whose role is to respond on short notice to terrorism threats and to reinforce security at U.S. embassies"

Wish I wore my American flag belt to work to honor these finely tuned citizens of the services, as well as those who lost lives or loved ones to these primal bunch of fucking mongrels. We are coming, Libya.

9/12/12

The United States was attacked on sovereign, American soil. An American Ambassador and other diplomatic officials have been assassinated by foreign attackers. America must respond with military force. Not an invasion, but a large aerial campaign must be launched, and the Libyan government must be held liable. Our foreign policy can no longer appease extremists. It's time to fight back through a show of strength. Time to put these animals in their place!

9/12/12

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12

" there is a perpetual war among Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia"

And good luck sending in ground troops and bombing anything. After 10 years of war and countless tours overseas our troops are beat to shit.

I'll tell you what. I would vote for Obama if he got on TV and said "sucks this guy died, but when you attack other people sometimes they want to kill you. Cost of doing business."

9/12/12

when we give foreign aid to these countries, we are giving money to governments who carry water for us. sometimes (i.e. pakistan) they don't even do that. but don't delude yourself into thinking that this foreign aid is anything other than support for despots who are the least bad of a horrible set of options. the money is not spent on hershey bars for orphans.

the ambassador has been murdered along with a staffer and two marines. nothing can bring them back now, and i only hope that our special forces are hunting down the goddamned cockroaches who did this.

however, we as a country never fail not to learn a goddamn thing from these teachable moments. there are those who want to knock over syria, or withdraw aid from pakistan, with no thought as to the consequences. the kinds of monsters that will replace the syrian and pakistani regimes are exactly the kinds you are seeing in the streets of benghazi today.

just a year and a half ago we were providing arms and air support to exactly the same mobs who murdered our ambassador. time to reflect.

9/12/12

I read that some Libyans were trying to take the body to a hospital. Those pictures are disturbing but might not be as bad as you would think at first glance if this was the case.

9/12/12
jrsoxfan18:

I read that some Libyans were trying to take the body to a hospital. Those pictures are disturbing but might not be as bad as you would think at first glance if this was the case.

They actually do look a bit like that.

9/12/12

...............................................................................the jews did this.

9/12/12
ChrisHansen:

...............................................................................the jews did this.

i'm not saying that at all. he could be a swede or a cuban expat and i would say that same thing.

9/12/12

We should start supporting Assad right now. Time to start sending weapons to the Syrian regime. If Assad falls, we will another 7-th century-cave dwelling-barbaric-islamic state in the region.

9/12/12
fermion:
ChrisHansen:

...............................................................................the jews did this.

i'm not saying that at all. he could be a swede or a cuban expat and i would say that same thing.

Exactly.

Back to the actual, non "omg antisemtism omg" serious question: Mossad is very sophisticated, if I was a defense analyst, I'd flag it as a potential op. Anyone else see this? Or is this just human stupidity at its finest?

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:
ChrisHansen:

...............................................................................the jews did this.

i'm not saying that at all. he could be a swede or a cuban expat and i would say that same thing.

Exactly.

Back to the actual, non "omg antisemtism omg" serious question: Mossad is very sophisticated, if I was a defense analyst, I'd flag it as a potential op. Anyone else see this? Or is this just human stupidity at its finest?

actually you might be on to something... though i'm NOT necessarily saying it was Israel.

look, i know we're all super-pissed. let's take a deep breath, calm down, and think this over. in all likelihood this was an act of savagery by an angry mob of extremists, but it would be foolish not to at least consider that some other entity... (maybe Iran or Israel or Gadaffi loyalists, who knows) had something to do with this. who would gain from reduced American support/presence in the new Libyan regime?

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

9/12/12

http://www.yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3...

we have the name of the leader of Ansar Al-Sharia, the group thought reponsible for the attack.

time to get your affairs in order, motherfucker. justice will find you soon.

9/12/12
fermion:

http://www.yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3...

we have the name of the leader of Ansar Al-Sharia, the group thought reponsible for the attack.

time to get your affairs in order, motherfucker. justice will find you soon.

Holy shit, dead man walking

Get busy living

9/12/12

The killing of a diplomat is always wrong but I must ask - why is THIS killing such an atrocity and the tens of thousands killed by NATO bombs as well as US soldiers posing with dead militants in Iraq / Afghanistan is not?

9/12/12
Asatar:

The killing of a diplomat is always wrong but I must ask - why is THIS killing such an atrocity and the tens of thousands killed by NATO bombs as well as US soldiers posing with dead militants in Iraq / Afghanistan is not?

Didn't realize dead militants and diplomats were comparable.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:
Asatar:

The killing of a diplomat is always wrong but I must ask - why is THIS killing such an atrocity and the tens of thousands killed by NATO bombs as well as US soldiers posing with dead militants in Iraq / Afghanistan is not?

Didn't realize dead militants and diplomats were comparable.

Why not? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter etc. A human life is a human life no matter what nationality they are. I am not for one second saything there is nothing wrong with his death, quite the opposite. I am just asking the question as to why when (and this applies to ALL Western countries) a diplomat / soldier / journalist etc. dies it is a tragedy but when someone on the 'other side' dies, it is collateral.

Look at it from the other point of view. Say Russia came and carpet bombed the entire United States and then 20 rednecks went and burned down a Russian embassy, killing a Russian diplomat, how would that go down?

9/12/12
Asatar:

The killing of a diplomat is always wrong but I must ask - why is THIS killing such an atrocity and the tens of thousands killed by NATO bombs as well as US soldiers posing with dead militants in Iraq / Afghanistan is not?

Interesting observation, reminds me of that Joker line in The Dark Knight:

"You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!"

Interesting how accurate that is - people are losing their minds on this thread.

9/12/12
Asatar:

The killing of a diplomat is always wrong

LOL not necessarily

Get busy living

9/12/12

50 marines being deployed to Libya to "restore order" What a fucking joke. Erase that country, don't send in 50 guys to lose their lives in an unstable area.
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/us-marine...

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12

the way we respond to this distinguishes us from our enemies. when polish partisans killed heydrich, the nazis went on a murder orgy across the polish countryside. when black september murdered israeli athletes, the mossad went around and slit all the terrorists' throats like pigs; they didn't go on a wild indiscriminate slaughter of people who had nothing to do with it.

apparently one of the libyan doctors in the area tried for 90 minutes to resuscitate ambassador stevens. and the pictures are consistent with locals trying to bring the ambassador to a hospital rather than dragging his body through the streets as a war trophy like in somalia. when we calm down i hope we will behave more like israel and not nazi germany.

9/12/12
fermion:

when we calm down i hope we will behave more like israel and not nazi germany.

....ew

9/12/12

my solution: let's send in a team to find the perpetrators and kill them. simple as that.

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

9/12/12

Anyone who responds to this and thinks "the guy should not have made the movie" is out of their mind. I don't give a fuck if the movie ends with a gay Islamic orgy, it's not appropriate to react to it by killing or doing anything violent whatsoever.

We can't cowtow to religious bigots and zealots. Ever.

9/12/12
TheKing:

Anyone who responds to this and thinks "the guy should not have made the movie" is out of their mind. I don't give a fuck if the movie ends with a gay Islamic orgy, it's not appropriate to react to it by killing or doing anything violent whatsoever.

We can't cowtow to religious bigots and zealots. Ever.

my point is simpler than people are making it out to be. if he was an actual american who swore allegiance to america and only america, we fight to the last man to protect his right to make whatever movie he wants. he can turn mohammad into a raging queer who takes it up the ass every night for all i care.

but bacile is a foreigner camping out in california, making his fortune under our protection, while having the ingratitude to declare his allegiance to a foreign country. and now 5 americans have died in the whirlwind he has sown. that rubs me very much the wrong way.

9/12/12

interesting... Libyan official claims that Gaddafi loyalists were to blame for this:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-libya...

i'm not buying it.

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

9/12/12

Side note - can Ron Paul still win the Republican primary?

9/12/12

According to CNN, the protests might have been used as a diversion for a planned attack.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12

^ yes i am sure that they have plenty of reasons outside of a stupid film. i don't want to distract too much from that. perhaps this is just bringing out of side-anger against people who use america for its wealth and safety but declare allegiance to a foreign country. their activities are harmless generally, but when they start doing things that affect our foreign policy landscape, it irritates me. bacile is not responsible for these murders. the mob is. i know that. that is all.

9/12/12

Got to bring back my Man Gaddhafi from the dead.

"I like money (as do most females) but love is...great :)"-student
"Perhaps you've failed to take into account my hidden assets"-007
Omnia

9/12/12

I wonder what the Libyan government (or whomever is nominally in charge of the country) has said about these attacks/murders.

9/12/12
Relinquis:

I wonder what the Libyan government (or whomever is nominally in charge of the country) has said about these attacks/murders.

The nominal leader of Libya apologized to America live on Aljazeera hours after it happened.

9/12/12

Glad to see a few bright Americans on these forums. Like 1%?

You people have no clue what you're talking about.

You have seen a few photos of a dead man, and are threfore calling for an attack, killing, missions etc.

Have you already forgot pictures of that poor Libyan people holding their dead children in their arms, rivers of blood around them?
Do you actually think that you are helping anyone!? I cant believe this s*it..

For Christs sake, you dropped cassete bombs on the hospital for little children in my country! Killed 400 children +xyz men and women during the 6 months alone!
Of course, none of you gives a phuck about that...
Did you help us end the civil war? -No, only made it worse.
Did you help anyone spread the democracy? -No, quite the opposite - now we are trying to get rid of nacionalists.
But at least you did not build your military bases here, and did not get monopoly over natural resources. And I've spent my childhood having little to nothing because of that.

Calling someone barbarians or savages?! Those Libyan people were highly educated and indipendable guys with free healthcare and help for the poor. Dont tell me that you believe in what you read on the news papers? Photos from the "protests in Libya", but "mistakenly (lol)" your news post 5 years old pictures from the protests in India. Of course, none of you even know what Libyan flag looks like... "green something"?

Noble Americans, ruthlessly killed OBL - what democracy is that? Why no prison? And you people were celebrating that event on the streets like pagans.

Btw, for any of you who has ever been in the US Embassy - I live next to one.
In each one you have at least 4 underground floors and enough resources to survive there for months. It is unbreakable and has escape routes.
That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

9/12/12
animalz:

That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

You're a lunatic.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:
animalz:

That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

You're a lunatic.

Let me tell you something - person that hides in that embassy undergrownd can't die.

An ambassador taken to the street full of angry mob?

Do your own math. It doesnt have to be what I've said above. But the chances are pretty high.

Same thing happened in my country (europe) - your embassy was burned to the ground. Nobody was hurt and everyone was perfectly safe. Most of the people were evacuated long before the event, and some were underground until our police secured the building. Only person that died was our huligan kid, who jumped inside stupidly and ended up being burned alive.

9/12/12
animalz:
happypantsmcgee:
animalz:

That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

You're a lunatic.

Let me tell you something - person that hides in that embassy undergrownd can't die.

An ambassador taken to the street full of angry mob?

Do your own math. It doesnt have to be what I've said above. But the chances are pretty high.

Same thing happened in my country (europe) - your embassy was burned to the ground. Nobody was hurt and everyone was perfectly safe. Most of the people were evacuated long before the event, and some were underground until our police secured the building. Only person that died was our huligan kid, who jumped inside stupidly and ended up being burned alive.

1) I thought you referred to Libya as 'your country' early?

2) I'm glad you have a better understanding of the security measures our country as in place at various diplomatic installations than we do. Perhaps we could hire you on as some sort of contractor to help us in the future. I'm sure the ambassador saw the mob outside and went out because no one told him about all these tunnels that you seem to know about because you 'live next to an embassy'.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
animalz:
happypantsmcgee:
animalz:

That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

You're a lunatic.

Let me tell you something - person that hides in that embassy undergrownd can't die.

An ambassador taken to the street full of angry mob?

Do your own math. It doesnt have to be what I've said above. But the chances are pretty high.

Same thing happened in my country (europe) - your embassy was burned to the ground. Nobody was hurt and everyone was perfectly safe. Most of the people were evacuated long before the event, and some were underground until our police secured the building. Only person that died was our huligan kid, who jumped inside stupidly and ended up being burned alive.

I don't understand how Europeans can babble on and on against 'imperialism' with a straight face.

9/12/12
animalz:
happypantsmcgee:
animalz:

That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

You're a lunatic.

Let me tell you something - person that hides in that embassy undergrownd can't die.

An ambassador taken to the street full of angry mob?

Do your own math. It doesnt have to be what I've said above. But the chances are pretty high.

Same thing happened in my country (europe) - your embassy was burned to the ground. Nobody was hurt and everyone was perfectly safe. Most of the people were evacuated long before the event, and some were underground until our police secured the building. Only person that died was our huligan kid, who jumped inside stupidly and ended up being burned alive.

I don't understand how Europeans can babble on and on against 'imperialism' with a straight face.

I am just trying to point to the other perspective.

You should thank god for not showing you the pain of people who lost their wifes, husbands, children and friends. Unthinkable hate was a product of that... Not sure if anyone can blame them.

9/12/12
animalz:

Same thing happened in my country (europe)

C'mon man.

animalz:

Noble Americans, ruthlessly killed OBL - what democracy is that? Why no prison?

I know right?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12

animalz:
Glad to see a few bright Americans on these forums. Like 1%?

You people have no clue what you're talking about.

You have seen a few photos of a dead man, and are threfore calling for an attack, killing, missions etc.

Have you already forgot pictures of that poor Libyan people holding their dead children in their arms, rivers of blood around them?
Do you actually think that you are helping anyone!? I cant believe this s*it..

For Christs sake, you dropped cassete bombs on the hospital for little children in my country! Killed 400 children +xyz men and women during the 6 months alone!
Of course, none of you gives a phuck about that...
Did you help us end the civil war? -No, only made it worse.
Did you help anyone spread the democracy? -No, quite the opposite - now we are trying to get rid of nacionalists.
But at least you did not build your military bases here, and did not get monopoly over natural resources. And I've spent my childhood having little to nothing because of that.

Calling someone barbarians or savages?! Those Libyan people were highly educated and indipendable guys with free healthcare and help for the poor. Dont tell me that you believe in what you read on the news papers? Photos from the "protests in Libya", but "mistakenly (lol)" your news post 5 years old pictures from the protests in India. Of course, none of you even know what Libyan flag looks like... "green something"?

Noble Americans, ruthlessly killed OBL - what democracy is that? Why no prison? And you people were celebrating that event on the streets like pagans.

Btw, for any of you who has ever been in the US Embassy - I live next to one.
In each one you have at least 4 underground floors and enough resources to survive there for months. It is unbreakable and has escape routes.
That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

Glad to see a few bright Americans on these forums. Like 1%?

You people have no clue what you're talking about.

You have seen a few photos of a dead man, and are threfore calling for an attack, killing, missions etc.

Have you already forgot pictures of that poor Libyan people holding their dead children in their arms, rivers of blood around them?
Do you actually think that you are helping anyone!? I cant believe this s*it..

For Christs sake, you dropped cassete bombs on the hospital for little children in my country! Killed 400 children +xyz men and women during the 6 months alone!
Of course, none of you gives a phuck about that...
Did you help us end the civil war? -No, only made it worse.
Did you help anyone spread the democracy? -No, quite the opposite - now we are trying to get rid of nacionalists.
But at least you did not build your military bases here, and did not get monopoly over natural resources. And I've spent my childhood having little to nothing because of that.

Calling someone barbarians or savages?! Those Libyan people were highly educated and indipendable guys with free healthcare and help for the poor. Dont tell me that you believe in what you read on the news papers? Photos from the "protests in Libya", but "mistakenly (lol)" your news post 5 years old pictures from the protests in India. Of course, none of you even know what Libyan flag looks like... "green something"?

Noble Americans, ruthlessly killed OBL - what democracy is that? Why no prison? And you people were celebrating that event on the streets like pagans.

Btw, for any of you who has ever been in the US Embassy - I live next to one.
In each one you have at least 4 underground floors and enough resources to survive there for months. It is unbreakable and has escape routes.
That poor ambassador was dinged by his own country - probably a justification for a new war.

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

9/12/12
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

actually, i've worked in one
it stands 250m from my place

trust me, your people are always safe..
no way that some angry mob can touch any of them - nothing unpredictable ever happens, and there is always a plan and a good connection with wealthy people/government in the country
except in case if they are some crazy reporters sticking their noses around

lol 50 generations.. you have no idea :D
you fucked us up in 2 years - an absolutely modern country with decent living standard and pro-european politics..

9/12/12
animalz:
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

actually, i've worked in one
it stands 250m from my place

trust me, your people are always safe..
no way that some angry mob can touch any of them - nothing unpredictable ever happens, and there is always a plan and a good connection with wealthy people/government in the country
except in case if they are some crazy reporters sticking their noses around

lol 50 generations.. you have no idea :D
you fucked us up in 2 years - an absolutely modern country with decent living standard and pro-european politics..

Yea those dudes in the Iranian embassy were safe as shit

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

im not talking about libya dude, im not libyan :D
you are also bombing regular countries
in which people live better than in US

thats called agression

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

9/12/12
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

you know, where i come from people hate the whole MENA and Islam, they speak like you do
however, they are arogant fools with loads of prejudice

what you might realise down the road
when your oversized government fuc*s your country more
is that a dictator would do wonders for america :D

you are the new romans dude.. its just not completely the same as before
but you still have loads of gray haired guys fuking up the people and fighting wrong wars while they are fu*king whores around the senate

you should which for a caesar to restore that quickly

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

9/12/12
animalz:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

you know, where i come from people hate the whole MENA and Islam, they speak like you do
however, they are arogant fools with loads of prejudice

what you might realise down the road
when your oversized government fuc*s your country more
is that a dictator would do wonders for america :D

you are the new romans dude.. its just not completely the same as before
but you still have loads of gray haired guys fuking up the people and fighting wrong wars while they are fu*king whores around the senate

you should which for a caesar to restore that quickly

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

You are mind numbingly retarded.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
animalz:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

you know, where i come from people hate the whole MENA and Islam, they speak like you do
however, they are arogant fools with loads of prejudice

what you might realise down the road
when your oversized government fuc*s your country more
is that a dictator would do wonders for america :D

you are the new romans dude.. its just not completely the same as before
but you still have loads of gray haired guys fuking up the people and fighting wrong wars while they are fu*king whores around the senate

you should which for a caesar to restore that quickly

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

If you read this reply like you are rapping and kind of move your head back and forth with a little bit of rapper attitude, it works.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
Nefarious-:
animalz:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

you know, where i come from people hate the whole MENA and Islam, they speak like you do
however, they are arogant fools with loads of prejudice

what you might realise down the road
when your oversized government fuc*s your country more
is that a dictator would do wonders for america :D

you are the new romans dude.. its just not completely the same as before
but you still have loads of gray haired guys fuking up the people and fighting wrong wars while they are fu*king whores around the senate

you should which for a caesar to restore that quickly

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

If you read this reply like you are rapping and kind of move your head back and forth with a little bit of rapper attitude, it works.

HAHA didnt realize that, +1

9/12/12
Nefarious-:
animalz:

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

If you read this reply like you are rapping and kind of move your head back and forth with a little bit of rapper attitude, it works.

hah wiping coffee off computer screen

Get busy living

9/12/12
animalz:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

however, when you fuck up, that doesnt cover much space in the news :D

I too share your frustration at this. The selve serving bias in our media is good for population control, but we'd be making hella better decisions if we as a nation looked at things a bit more honestly.

Still though, fuck MENA. It's not like we conquer like other empires have. Had we been the Romans, a thousand people would be publicly crucified today, just to make the point "do not fuck with us"...so us trying to build a democracy that we can hand back to nations, free of charge I might add, isn't so bad. Unless you want the shitty theocratic kleptoplutocracies type of thing, good luck with all that. Durka durka

you know, where i come from people hate the whole MENA and Islam, they speak like you do
however, they are arogant fools with loads of prejudice

what you might realise down the road
when your oversized government fuc*s your country more
is that a dictator would do wonders for america :D

you are the new romans dude.. its just not completely the same as before
but you still have loads of gray haired guys fuking up the people and fighting wrong wars while they are fu*king whores around the senate

you should which for a caesar to restore that quickly

too bad, there is no caesar to choose atm

You are one of the most unintelligent people I have ever met. Please stop spouting bullshit.

My opinion on this ordeal. Don't start a war over it and put more security at these places.

9/12/12
kyleyboy:

You are one of the most unintelligent people I have ever met. Please stop spouting bullshit.

My opinion on this ordeal. Don't start a war over it and put more security at these places.

sure, america should be proud to have such young intellectuals like yourself

you should def give a call to uncle sam and let him know what you think about war and "those places"

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

this is not exactly true. gaddafi's libya had good relations with italy and SE europe: they gave technocratic know how to help run a relatively modern welfare state in exchange for oil. even the lockerbie families were protesting the Brown govt's decision in the UK to regularize relations (in exchange for, you guessed it, oil rights).

the problem is he stepped off the reservation with his gold dinar plan. we panicked, opportunistically amplified the the islamist tide against him, with reckless disregard to the consequences. this has echoes of the time we helped the islamists in yugoslavia thinking that they will give us future credit for siding with muslims against a christian enemy. shows us what retarded fuckwits we have in government.

9/12/12
fermion:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

this is not exactly true. gaddafi's libya had good relations with italy and SE europe: they gave technocratic know how to help run a relatively modern welfare state in exchange for oil. even the lockerbie families were protesting the Brown govt's decision in the UK to regularize relations (in exchange for, you guessed it, oil rights).

the problem is he stepped off the reservation with his gold dinar plan. we panicked, opportunistically amplified the the islamist tide against him, with reckless disregard to the consequences. this has echoes of the time we helped the islamists in yugoslavia thinking that they will give us future credit for siding with muslims against a christian enemy. shows us what retarded fuckwits we have in government.

this.
he was also the first guy to welcome your black african president :D

he was an honorable member of the UN
and had many allies

but he was to proud and old, you dealt with him easily via media lies..
created some dirty stories and simply let them go around the world

not saying that he was a saint
he was a dictator, south-american style :D

but his people lived good
there were only his rivals that were not satisfied

9/12/12
animalz:
fermion:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

this is not exactly true. gaddafi's libya had good relations with italy and SE europe: they gave technocratic know how to help run a relatively modern welfare state in exchange for oil. even the lockerbie families were protesting the Brown govt's decision in the UK to regularize relations (in exchange for, you guessed it, oil rights).

the problem is he stepped off the reservation with his gold dinar plan. we panicked, opportunistically amplified the the islamist tide against him, with reckless disregard to the consequences. this has echoes of the time we helped the islamists in yugoslavia thinking that they will give us future credit for siding with muslims against a christian enemy. shows us what retarded fuckwits we have in government.

this.
he was also the first guy to welcome your black african president :D

he was an honorable member of the UN
and had many allies

but he was to proud and old, you dealt with him easily via media lies..
created some dirty stories and simply let them go around the world

not saying that he was a saint
he was a dictator, south-american style :D

but his people lived good
there were only his rivals that were not satisfied

Why do you write in stanzas?

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

9/12/12
happypantsmcgee:
animalz:
fermion:
UFOinsider:
animalz:

an barely modern country with ... pro-european politics..

Really? Last I checked, Ghaddafi was aligned with the Soviets, then went out on his own to run the dictatorship, and hasn't ever been cooperative with Europe. As for the US destroying anything....no dude, just no. Libya has been poorly run for a very long time and YOUR people organized and executed the coup, not us, they even told the CIA to get out at one point so don't try and blame us for your fucking mess. That we helped at all is a miracle given the last few years of our foreign policy.

this is not exactly true. gaddafi's libya had good relations with italy and SE europe: they gave technocratic know how to help run a relatively modern welfare state in exchange for oil. even the lockerbie families were protesting the Brown govt's decision in the UK to regularize relations (in exchange for, you guessed it, oil rights).

the problem is he stepped off the reservation with his gold dinar plan. we panicked, opportunistically amplified the the islamist tide against him, with reckless disregard to the consequences. this has echoes of the time we helped the islamists in yugoslavia thinking that they will give us future credit for siding with muslims against a christian enemy. shows us what retarded fuckwits we have in government.

this.
he was also the first guy to welcome your black african president :D

he was an honorable member of the UN
and had many allies

but he was to proud and old, you dealt with him easily via media lies..
created some dirty stories and simply let them go around the world

not saying that he was a saint
he was a dictator, south-american style :D

but his people lived good
there were only his rivals that were not satisfied

Why do you write in stanzas?

This is so funny, like his responses are poems. He even worked in some dope rhymes as he managed to rhyme "allies" with "lies". Pretty next level shit if you ask me.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
animalz:
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

actually, i've worked in one
it stands 250m from my place

trust me, your people are always safe..
no way that some angry mob can touch any of them - nothing unpredictable ever happens, and there is always a plan and a good connection with wealthy people/government in the country
except in case if they are some crazy reporters sticking their noses around

lol 50 generations.. you have no idea :D
you fucked us up in 2 years - an absolutely modern country with decent living standard and pro-european politics..

Ah ... Bosnia-Herzegovina. I should have known

9/12/12
animalz:
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

actually, i've worked in one
it stands 250m from my place

trust me, your people are always safe..
no way that some angry mob can touch any of them - nothing unpredictable ever happens, and there is always a plan and a good connection with wealthy people/government in the country
except in case if they are some crazy reporters sticking their noses around

lol 50 generations.. you have no idea :D
you fucked us up in 2 years - an absolutely modern country with decent living standard and pro-european politics..

Ah ... Bosnia-Herzegovina. I should have known

not
but after a dozen more guesses you might hit the target

thats i will not answer
but its not BiH

BiH kinda is in the stone age :D
jk

9/12/12
animalz:

Ah ... Bosnia-Herzegovina. I should have known

not
but after a dozen more guesses you might hit the target

thats i will not answer
but its not BiH

BiH kinda is in the stone age :D
jk

I'd wager a lot of money that you're a Serb angry at the US for halting the little genocide party you guys were throwing down there.

9/12/12
animalz:

Ah ... Bosnia-Herzegovina. I should have known

not
but after a dozen more guesses you might hit the target

thats i will not answer
but its not BiH

BiH kinda is in the stone age :D
jk

I'd wager a lot of money that you're a Serb angry at the US for halting the little genocide party you guys were throwing down there.

that was at least as much about checking russian influence in the balkans as about stopping genocides, of which we have a spotty record.

9/12/12
animalz:

Ah ... Bosnia-Herzegovina. I should have known

not
but after a dozen more guesses you might hit the target

thats i will not answer
but its not BiH

BiH kinda is in the stone age :D
jk

I'd wager a lot of money that you're a Serb angry at the US for halting the little genocide party you guys were throwing down there.

dude already told you that you are hilarious

however, you probably dont even know which countries exist on balkan, let alone europe

btw you gave serbs the president-dictator that was throwing those parties :D

cheers

9/12/12
Edmundo Braverman:
animalz:

lol, no offense - but you dont know sh*t about life
wannabe baller...tough guy behind his PC..

Open your ignorant mind, come to see the harsh reality. Visit some of the countries that you've bombed. Ask your own soldiers - not the politicians.

You're clearly unfamiliar with my work.

This was a consulate, not an embassy. And the notion that American embassies are survivalist bunkers is hilarious. You'd know that if you'd ever been in one.

But please, continue to regale us with tales of how it's our fault that your people haven't managed to get their shit together in 50 generations.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's be fair. I am familiar with your work and you are a wannabe baller tough guy behind his PC, except it is probably a mac instead of a PC and you are a faggot as well (I added that last part).

Now stfu and start visiting some of the countries we have bombed so you can actually join in on the conversation in a logical and intelligent manner.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
animalz:

Noble Americans, ruthlessly killed OBL - what democracy is that?

Yeah, because OBL always gave America a fair shake.

9/12/12

Here's the official presser from the US Embassy in Egypt yesterday:
http://egypt.usembassy.gov/pr091112.html

I'd prefer "get off our property or we're sending the Marine guards and DSS agents after your ass" but apparently we have to be nice to douchebags who try to blow shit up over a YouTube video.

9/12/12
JulianRobertson:

Here's the official presser from the US Embassy in Egypt yesterday:
http://egypt.usembassy.gov/pr091112.html

I'd prefer "get off our property or we're sending the Marine guards and DSS agents after your ass" but apparently we have to be nice to douchebags who try to blow shit up over a YouTube video.

Taking the high ground helps when we're explaining away a 10:1 casualty ratio after retalliation :) It's a diplomacy thing. Kind of like the word "credibility" means that people understand that we definitely can and will use force...

Get busy living

9/12/12

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

9/12/12
fermion:

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

Afghanistan was in the stone age before we went in.

9/12/12
Amphipathic:
fermion:

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

Afghanistan was in the stone age before we went in.

lol... they had everything
most importantly, they had a potential to multiply their living standard 40x

9/12/12
animalz:
Amphipathic:
fermion:

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

Afghanistan was in the stone age before we went in.

lol... they had everything
dude, that country ruled the world for centuries.. one of the richest cultures on earth
most importantly, they had a potential to multiply their living standard 40x

9/12/12
Amphipathic:
fermion:

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

Afghanistan was in the stone age before we went in.

that's a good one. haven't heard that one before.

it's just that kind of thinking -- underestimating your enemy -- that got the soviets their asses handed to them and us stuck there 11 years later, with no control of the country outside of our moonbase in kabul and going nowhere fast.

it costs us $1MM a man a year to keep a soldier in afghanistan. it takes them just a couple of kalashnikovs and a fleet of pickup trucks to keep us spending and bleeding.

if these guys are cavemen they are some of the most cunning, diabolically brilliant cavemen i've ever seen.

9/12/12
fermion:
Amphipathic:
fermion:

i am human and i feel as much anger as any other american when i see my ambassador murdered. but i hope everyone here saying "let's bomb them into the stone age" remembers how they felt on 9/11.

we bombed afghanistan into the stone age. we even went into iraq, with 2/3 of the american people in a NYT poll prior to march 2003 believing that saddam actually had something to do with 9/11.

where the fuck are we now? stuck to one tar baby in central asia and another one in the heart of the arab world. and now with yemen, syria, egypt, tunisia -- we are getting a perfect preview of exactly what awaits us once we exit iraq and afghanistan AS WE MUST ONE DAY. and when that day comes it is going to be fucking benghazi x10000000.

not all problems have military solutions. i am not saying that using force is never a solution, but it is rarely the only solution. you're angry. everyone gets it. calling them savages and calling for them to be wiped off the map might feel good but it is hardly original, and hardly useful. just the opposite if this temporary surge of emotion gives cynical parties the opening to stampede us into another goatfuck.

Afghanistan was in the stone age before we went in.

that's a good one. haven't heard that one before.

it's just that kind of thinking -- underestimating your enemy -- that got the soviets their asses handed to them and us stuck there 11 years later, with no control of the country outside of our moonbase in kabul and going nowhere fast.

it costs us $1MM a man a year to keep a soldier in afghanistan. it takes them just a couple of kalashnikovs and a fleet of pickup trucks to keep us spending and bleeding.

if these guys are cavemen they are some of the most cunning, diabolically brilliant cavemen i've ever seen.

Nothing more dangerous then men with nothing to lose (esp when they got plenty of RPGs and caves to hide in)

9/12/12

I'm going to restrain myself here because if I expressed my honest views on these people and Islam in general, I would probably get banned.

Simply put, this is disgusting. These people have so little fear of the U.S. that they chose to commit these acts on September 11th. The Obama administration's response has been quite disturbing as well, reminiscent of Jimmy Carter's tepid actions towards Iran during the hostage crisis. I'm not going to go so far as to say that we should send in armed U.S. soldiers into Libya, but there definitely needs to be dire consequences for these people. If Obama does not get this right, it could be his "October Surprise" moment, tilting the election to Romney.

9/12/12

Where'd all these people come from lately?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

9/12/12

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

9/12/12
Zafrynex:

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

everyone should see material like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SimIS_cQ6ko&feature...

9/12/12
Zafrynex:

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

Bin Laden was a crazy rich kid that saw some war, cracked, and developed a god complex. some of his fighters had been allied with the US during the cold war.....20 fucking years prior. The US made some mistakes in the '79 war, probably the biggest was not fostering a reconstruction to all the chaos that Bin Laden took advantage of. Good grief, learn your history, it was only a couple of decades ago.

Let me simplify this for you:
1. Country / terrorists fuck with the US
2. The US kicks the shit out of them
3. Said countries / terrorists denounce the US for being violent

There are many shady and unsavory things about our foreign policy, but it's not like we have the option to just do business with nice people. And yeah, sometimes we fucking kill people, that's how we roll. There's also chaos all over the place and people killing each other, and there's simply nothing we can do about it. The US is not perfect and of course there are mistakes, but to say that there is untold carnage simply because of us is very dishonest.

Take off your ideological filters and look to see WHAT IS instead of WHAT YOU WANT TO BE. Start your reasoning from there, and don't accept someone else's interpretation. C'mon, there's more information than ever before in history on the interwebz, start learning and think for yourself.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:

Let me simplify this for you:
1. Country / terrorists fuck with the US
2. The US kicks the shit out of them
3. Said countries / terrorists denounce the US for being violent

There are many shady and unsavory things about our foreign policy, but it's not like we have the option to just do business with nice people. And yeah, sometimes we fucking kill people, that's how we roll. There's also chaos all over the place and people killing each other, and there's simply nothing we can do about it. The US is not perfect and of course there are mistakes, but to say that there is untold carnage simply because of us is very dishonest.

Take off your ideological filters and look to see WHAT IS instead of WHAT YOU WANT TO BE. Start your reasoning from there, and don't accept someone else's interpretation. C'mon, there's more information than ever before in history on the interwebz, start learning and think for yourself.

Let me give you another quick summary :

1- I am mohammed, a random guy that couldn't care less about the USA, LIKE MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FUCKING PLANET
2- Shit, bombs all over the place
3- Shit, my son is dead or my house is burning, or economy is destroyed so i see no future for my family.
4- What the hell is happening ?
5- Apparently, the "americans" (where is america by the way ?) are attacking my country because some obnoxious retard called bin laden that i've never heard of decided to send planes in a random building somewhere in the planet.
6- Screw those americans whoever they are, why me ?

That's what actually happened for hundreds of people.

Now let's talk about en even worse situation : Iraq.
Random non-sense about mass-destruction weapons "threathening the american security". LOL ?

So now you should update the 1st point of your story :
1. Country looks like it might possibly maybe in another world burried in the sand of times fuck with the US, but we have no proof, or actually know this is wrong but who cares ?
2. The US kicks the shit out of them
3. Said countries / terrorists denounce the US for being violent

You call this shit "mistakes"
I wonder what you would think if another country, or let's say aliens because no country has the military ability did same kind of things to the US.
Just a "mistake" by the aliens right ?

9/12/12
Zafrynex:

I wonder what you would think if another country, or let's say aliens because no country has the military ability did same kind of things to the US.
Just a "mistake" by the aliens right ?

First of all, I come in peace. Plenty of innocents were caught in the crossfire of the 2003 war: the fact that it was sold fraudulently to the US public enraged me, and I lost support for it when I saw a picture of a child that had their head blown off, I knew that we were seriously misguided. On an individual level, there are many people on both sides that didn't want that war. Chalk it up to a retard in office and people misdirecting their grief and outrage onto lashing out without really thinking things over.

As for the rest of your incoherent rambling: suck my balls. That's right, suck 'em. You're completely off base: the Afghanistan war was a response to a criminal conspiracy calling itself Al Quaeda that was actively hijacking the region. We KNOW that Iraq wasn't working with them, so you're right on that. But it had to be done. If you'll remember correctly, we helped those same people fight back against the soviets decades earlier. We did this as part of a far larger effort against a truly evil empire that was actively trying to enslave the world to a really rotten system. We then left. We never got a thank you. Then, Bin Laden set up shop. In a way, the whole thing could have been prevented had the US spent some effort into reconstructing the region...we could have put order to chaos but instead an opportunistic bunch of zealots did. Then they turned it against the US. Why? I'm not really sure. Were they pissed off about Iran '53? Did they really think that their glorious dream of ressurecting the Persian Empire would happen? And did they seriously think that knocking a couple of buildings over would really destroy us. Really. Two buildings. They were delusional and had probably smoked too much of their own drugs.

Did the whole thing go according to plan? No, definitely not. Did the US really need to invade Iraq? I'm of the opinion no, I think the neocons got carried away. Would we have seen the Arab Spring otherwise? Highly debateable...Bush just may have gotten it right. Do I think we should proselytize democracy at the end of a gun? Absolutely not, but hey, if we're conquering a country for other reasons, why the hell not set up democracy while we're over there?

But compare this to the legacy of the Soviets, who slaughtered far more people simply for resources. It sucks that MENA got caught in the crossfire of that, but hey, take it out on them: had it not been for the cold war THEY required, we'd probably not have cared at all what happened over there. Truthfully, after the fossil fuel period of history has passed, it's unlikely that anyone will care about MENA.

The last thing I have to say is a bit cold: sorry about the subjective experience of some people there. It sucks for them and I personally hated that so many innocents would die. I hate that so many Americans had to suffer as well. But had these people taken any iota of responsibility in governing themselves and had a leader/gov't with any sense about them, they would not have been in this position. MENA never had a Renaissance and we're ok with that: plenty of shitty hell holes prefer to live in the stone age and we're ok with that. But they made it our problem when they could have taken a different route and that's why the war happened. Look at America's seal: peaceably if we can, forceibly if we must. If we're kicking your ass, there's probably a laundry list of good reasons, so maybe look inward and take stock of your and your region's own shortcoming before laying all the blame of the human condition upon the US.

Oh, and BTW, more people give a shit about what we do than you're giving credit for. At this point in history, we're it. We are the final authority on major development and are pushing most of it. Europe was never more than a bunch of conquering maruaders, so congrats on them taking a seat and realizing no one ever wanted what they were selling. But we are not Europe. Get your facts straight.

Get busy living

9/12/12
Zafrynex:

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

So many stupid points in this reply it is amazing. Are you unaware that bombing Hiroshima was a direct result of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor? The US bombing Japan is what led to Japan being one of the most peaceful countries on Earth today.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
Nefarious-:

So many stupid points in this reply it is amazing. Are you unaware that bombing Hiroshima was a direct result of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor? The US bombing Japan is what led to Japan being one of the most peaceful countries on Earth today.

So i guess the USA should just bomb every other country to make the world a better place.

Fucking retard.

9/12/12
Zafrynex:
Nefarious-:

So many stupid points in this reply it is amazing. Are you unaware that bombing Hiroshima was a direct result of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor? The US bombing Japan is what led to Japan being one of the most peaceful countries on Earth today.

So i guess the USA should just bomb every other country to make the world a better place.

Fucking retard.

Not all of them, no.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
Zafrynex:

So i guess the USA should just bomb every other country to make the world a better place.

In some strange way, a case could be made. Name a country that's ever had to be re-civilized when we got to finish the job. One last war and then almost a century of peace from countries we conquered...if you really hate war, how about realize that sometimes you have to WIN one to end the non-stop tit for tat.

Not that I'm a huge fan of war. Just pointing out the very obvious.

Get busy living

9/12/12
Nefarious-:
Zafrynex:

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

So many stupid points in this reply it is amazing. Are you unaware that bombing Hiroshima was a direct result of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor? The US bombing Japan is what led to Japan being one of the most peaceful countries on Earth today.

do you realize that pearl harbor was a direct result of a US/UK/Netherlands oil/gas/tin/rubber embargo? that the US was sending non-uniformed american pilots to fight against japan in the chinese air force? that the US Navy was sending gunboats and materiel into the china theatre of war, and japan actually apologized to US when she accidentally sank one of them thinking it was chinese? that the US has frozen japanese assets in the US months before pearl? that the US was actively abetting both nationalist and communist chinese war efforts (americans helping out a party in a civil war which backstabs us later...hmmm...sounds familiar)? did you read ambassador joseph grew's memo to FDR to maximally provoke japan into firing the first shot, as she was a "hara kiri" nation?

please, we are supposed to be professionals in finance and consulting. we should not use historical reasoning stuck at a middle school level.

9/12/12
fermion:
Nefarious-:
Zafrynex:

What i find even more amazing than the stupidity of those retarded terrorists are the kind of arrogance and american imperialist attitude you can find everywhere, including in those boards.

America is crying over the 11th of september, fine.

God since they went to the middle east in Iraq/Afghanistan it's the 11th of september every single day of the year in those regions.

the US puts entire countries into chaos and havoc, has a brutal and completely selfish foreign policy, as if they were supposed to rule the world by virtue of fact.

Dozens of people are dying everywhere everyday as a direct or indirect consequence of American non-sense.
Sorry but this fucking ambassador's worth is no more than that of the thousands of dead people in the middle east.

The number and violence of USA atrocities is still unheard of trough history, remember hiroshima ?
stop giving lessons to the world and go back to pre-WW non intervention policy, and nobody will hate america.

Us foreign policy is always so short-termist and selfish that it backfires.
Remember that bin laden is a US creation.

So many stupid points in this reply it is amazing. Are you unaware that bombing Hiroshima was a direct result of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor? The US bombing Japan is what led to Japan being one of the most peaceful countries on Earth today.

do you realize that pearl harbor was a direct result of a US/UK/Netherlands oil/gas/tin/rubber embargo? that the US was sending non-uniformed american pilots to fight against japan in the chinese air force? that the US Navy was sending gunboats and materiel into the china theatre of war, and japan actually apologized to US when she accidentally sank one of them thinking it was chinese? that the US has frozen japanese assets in the US months before pearl? that the US was actively abetting both nationalist and communist chinese war efforts (americans helping out a party in a civil war which backstabs us later...hmmm...sounds familiar)? did you read ambassador joseph grew's memo to FDR to maximally provoke japan into firing the first shot, as she was a "hara kiri" nation?

please, we are supposed to be professionals in finance and consulting. we should not use historical reasoning stuck at a middle school level.

We wouldn't have put Japan half into the sea if they didn't fly their planes into our boats. Pretty simple stuff.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12
fermion:

do you realize that pearl harbor was a direct result of

...a clash of civilizations. Japan was an imperialistic and aggressive empire, and it was only a matter of time before we went to war. We did the embargo (1) for selfish reasons and (2) they had already started a brutal campaign against the Chinese that we knew they'd take to us. Realistically, what were our options? Serious question. What were we to do?? Their plan was not defensive: it was to knock out our defenses in advance of an invasion. Sorry, this is pretty cut and dry, not much gray area at all.

You're smarter than that.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:

do you realize that pearl harbor was a direct result of

...a clash of civilizations. Japan was an imperialistic and aggressive empire, and it was only a matter of time before we went to war. We did the embargo (1) for selfish reasons and (2) they had already started a brutal campaign against the Chinese that we knew they'd take to us. Realistically, what were our options? Serious question. What were we to do?? Their plan was not defensive: it was to knock out our defenses in advance of an invasion. Sorry, this is pretty cut and dry, not much gray area at all.

You're smarter than that.

i'm not defending japan. what they were doing to the other asians was completely despicable. they got what was coming to them ultimately.

however, we did consciously inject ourselves into that nightmare because we did not want japan to close off the vast wealth, manpower and resources of asia to our commerce and industry. we didn't do this to help the chinese but to keep our edge economically in asia. let's not turn necessities into virtue.

my point was that pearl harbor wasn't just the caprice of some suicidal japanese admirals who thought "hey, let's attack the world's greatest industrial power and see what happens." we wanted them to fire the first shot just like lincoln wanted the south to fire the first shot at sumter. reinforcing the fort by sea when he was warned not to created the casus belli in the southern leadership. these are age-old tricks.

that is all that i am saying.

9/12/12
fermion:

my point was that pearl harbor wasn't just the caprice of some suicidal japanese admirals who thought "hey, let's attack the world's greatest industrial power and see what happens." we wanted them to fire the first shot just like lincoln wanted the south to fire the first shot at sumter. reinforcing the fort by sea when he was warned not to created the casus belli in the southern leadership. these are age-old tricks.

that is all that i am saying.

These elements were definitely there, no doubt about that. Stimpson's role is still subject to scrutiny...did they know beforehand about the Pearl Harbor attack and think it was only a small salvo? We'll probably never know. Also true with the Chinese: we didn't want to be cut out and why should we? They were trading partners. That the Japanese turned the whole thing into an orgy of torture, forced prostitution, and a virtual freak show of human rights abuses was beyond our control and knowledge...just like the Nazi death camps until the closing days of the war. But those things further underscore the differences between us: we rebuilt whoever would let us and they've done very well since then. Ultimately though, we were on the "To conquer" list of both Germany and Japan, and we would have had to fight sooner or later. One could even make the case that the total death count of WWII would have been far lower had the US entered earlier and put an end to it all. I'm just clarifying that part to make it clear that in the big picture, we're not the type of empire that pillages and plunders only...we actually DO want the world to be a better place and the people we're facing off against are pretty vile.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:

my point was that pearl harbor wasn't just the caprice of some suicidal japanese admirals who thought "hey, let's attack the world's greatest industrial power and see what happens." we wanted them to fire the first shot just like lincoln wanted the south to fire the first shot at sumter. reinforcing the fort by sea when he was warned not to created the casus belli in the southern leadership. these are age-old tricks.

that is all that i am saying.

These elements were definitely there, no doubt about that. Stimpson's role is still subject to scrutiny...did they know beforehand about the Pearl Harbor attack and think it was only a small salvo? We'll probably never know. Also true with the Chinese: we didn't want to be cut out and why should we? They were trading partners. That the Japanese turned the whole thing into an orgy of torture, forced prostitution, and a virtual freak show of human rights abuses was beyond our control and knowledge...just like the Nazi death camps until the closing days of the war. But those things further underscore the differences between us: we rebuilt whoever would let us and they've done very well since then. Ultimately though, we were on the "To conquer" list of both Germany and Japan, and we would have had to fight sooner or later. One could even make the case that the total death count of WWII would have been far lower had the US entered earlier and put an end to it all. I'm just clarifying that part to make it clear that in the big picture, we're not the type of empire that pillages and plunders only...we actually DO want the world to be a better place and the people we're facing off against are pretty vile.

there is an equal strain of decency and cynicism in all places. what is decent and cynical about us is by no means unique. there were well-meaning british civil servants by the dozens for every reginald dyer i am sure. the net effect is the same, however.

i am not sure that i buy the thesis that we are all that altruistic. we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944 when the luftwaffe was toast. we would not have been putting our aircrews at any significant risk. we chose not to do it. this is just an example. we had a great chance to make the world a better place in real time and we decided that a bunch of jews wasn't worth the trouble of a few dozen extra sorties.

and btw, germany and japan's rise was by no means a matter of design by us. we were actively suppressing both economies but had to give ground as local communist movements were gaining force. we would be happy to have germans as farmers and japanese as a nation of goldfish tenders if we could have got away with it. even after the berlin wall came down, we used listening stations deployed against the USSR to steal industrial information from german rivals. this is the nature of our empire. we are not better or worse. i just think we ought to be honest with ourselves about what we really are because if we want to udnerstand why europe mildly resents us and the rest of the world hates us we need to deal in reality.

9/12/12
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944 when the luftwaffe was toast. we would not have been putting our aircrews at any significant risk. we chose not to do it. this is just an example. we had a great chance to make the world a better place in real time and we decided that a bunch of jews wasn't worth the trouble of a few dozen extra sorties.

and btw, germany and japan's rise was by no means a matter of design by us. we were actively suppressing both economies but had to give ground as local communist movements were gaining force. we would be happy to have germans as farmers and japanese as a nation of goldfish tenders if we could have got away with it. even after the berlin wall came down, we used listening stations deployed against the USSR to steal industrial information from german rivals. this is the nature of our empire. we are not better or worse. i just think we ought to be honest with ourselves about what we really are because if we want to udnerstand why europe mildly resents us and the rest of the world hates us we need to deal in reality.

Europe resents us because they're jealous of the fact that we pulled off what they tried so hard to do...and it was a byproduct of other goals. Hi Hi we control most of the globe, and most Americans are actually unsettled by it. To put us on par with the axis powers before, during, or after the war is chugging some pretty stiff kooladed man, I'd seriously go back and reexamine your premises there. Yes, there is substantial self interest in our being a globally engaged nation, but conquering as a military empire was something that the last administration took a lot further than anyone else.

Honestly: you really think that America is exploiting the world to the same ruthless and irreversible extent as past powers? We're not even close. I get annoyed when people get subjective as it suits their needs, but line up the accomplishments, agendas, and outcomes of all other empires and compare them to our record: it's not perfect but we're not anywhere close to the level of 'suck' that previous hegemons were. That we should be one, I don't know, I tend to think that if we weren't that some aweful regimene like the Soviets or Chinese would take up the role in the face of the UN really not being an effective world gov't yet. Hate to say it, but without us it would get real ugly, real quick. If the US pulled all troops home tomorrow, the world would descend into anarchy: my only regret is that we're not more actively managing things away from dependance on us.

If you think this is not the case, ask yourself if the EU would exist without the bedrock of stability we created FOR THEM. For their entire history, they'd been little more than petty warring states. Now they're an economic bloc. Think in those terms and what we're selling quickly becomes preferable to what every other power of history had as its end. And all we really want? I dunno, some oil, some cheap chachkis for our malls, the comfort of knowing that we're not going to be attacked and that same peace of mind for everyone? C'mon, that's it. That's all we want.

Last point: the former prime minister of N. Vietnam, when talking to Kissinger many years later [paraphrased]:
Kissinger: Why did you resists us? We were trying to help. We had little to gain. I've never understood
N V PM: we thought you were helping the French regain their colony.
Kissinger: Really? Fuck me, no dude, seriously. We didn't want you to become communist, that's all.
N V PM: damn. I feel like an asshole. Sorry about that.
Kissinger: honestly, you're the ones that really lost.....

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944 when the luftwaffe was toast. we would not have been putting our aircrews at any significant risk. we chose not to do it. this is just an example. we had a great chance to make the world a better place in real time and we decided that a bunch of jews wasn't worth the trouble of a few dozen extra sorties.

and btw, germany and japan's rise was by no means a matter of design by us. we were actively suppressing both economies but had to give ground as local communist movements were gaining force. we would be happy to have germans as farmers and japanese as a nation of goldfish tenders if we could have got away with it. even after the berlin wall came down, we used listening stations deployed against the USSR to steal industrial information from german rivals. this is the nature of our empire. we are not better or worse. i just think we ought to be honest with ourselves about what we really are because if we want to udnerstand why europe mildly resents us and the rest of the world hates us we need to deal in reality.

Europe resents us because they're jealous of the fact that we pulled off what they tried so hard to do...and it was a byproduct of other goals. Hi Hi we control most of the globe, and most Americans are actually unsettled by it. To put us on par with the axis powers before, during, or after the war is chugging some pretty stiff kooladed man, I'd seriously go back and reexamine your premises there. Yes, there is substantial self interest in our being a globally engaged nation, but conquering as a military empire was something that the last administration took a lot further than anyone else.

Honestly: you really think that America is exploiting the world to the same ruthless and irreversible extent as past powers? We're not even close. I get annoyed when people get subjective as it suits their needs, but line up the accomplishments, agendas, and outcomes of all other empires and compare them to our record: it's not perfect but we're not anywhere close to the level of 'suck' that previous hegemons were. That we should be one, I don't know, I tend to think that if we weren't that some aweful regimene like the Soviets or Chinese would take up the role in the face of the UN really not being an effective world gov't yet. Hate to say it, but without us it would get real ugly, real quick. If the US pulled all troops home tomorrow, the world would descend into anarchy: my only regret is that we're not more actively managing things away from dependance on us.

If you think this is not the case, ask yourself if the EU would exist without the bedrock of stability we created FOR THEM. For their entire history, they'd been little more than petty warring states. Now they're an economic bloc. Think in those terms and what we're selling quickly becomes preferable to what every other power of history had as its end. And all we really want? I dunno, some oil, some cheap chachkis for our malls, the comfort of knowing that we're not going to be attacked and that same peace of mind for everyone? C'mon, that's it. That's all we want.

Last point: the former prime minister of N. Vietnam, when talking to Kissinger many years later [paraphrased]:
Kissinger: Why did you resists us? We were trying to help. We had little to gain. I've never understood
N V PM: we thought you were helping the French regain their colony.
Kissinger: Really? Fuck me, no dude, seriously. We didn't want you to become communist, that's all.
N V PM: damn. I feel like an asshole. Sorry about that.
Kissinger: honestly, you're the ones that really lost.....

good points, but please, don't straw man my arguments. this "we are not so bad because there are worse" argument just doesn't wash at all.

we went on fucking psycho killing sprees all across korea and vietnam. almost half of the south koreans polled by State in the middle of the korean war actually PREFERRED the JAPANESE to US rule when the japanese rape trucks and summary killings were in recent living memory. we and our proxies regularly tortured, rape, threw POWs out of choppers, used chemical warfare all over indochina. and in iraq, serbia and iraq II, we go in there an level that shit and fuck all to the body count. we pummeled fallujah into the dirt. and if you want to learn more about the gift that keeps on giving, find some reportage on our use of depleted uranium munitions in all of these warzones. i used to think that our leaving landmines behind was bad. we are now leaving behind birth defects that aren't even understood by medicine yet.

perhaps the question is whether you think moral conduct has an absolute standard. for me, it does. the golden rule. known to jesus, known to buddha, known to every great moral teacher. we kill when we must, but we do not kill just so the boss can make a few extra bucks. look into gen. smedley butler's speeches on this. twice MOH-decorated US marine. hardly a pinko america-hater right there. if moral conduct is relative, there is no limit as to the kinds of crimes we can justify. and i'm not talking about america. i'm talking about anyone.

in any case, i'm done with this thread. let's kill the fucks who murdered our ambassador and think about not creating more terrorist-spawning hellholes in the future.

9/12/12
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944

...or Catholic Poles. 3 Million of us that no one ever hears us bitching about. Whiney fucking jews. Ok, sorry, before every hysterical yenta from the north shore gets on my ass...I know you had it worse. But still, it's like we don't even exist. WTF. We suffered too, I grew up with d/c survivors, and they never got any recognition.

Compare those camps with the internment camps: YEAH we dicked the Japanese Americans, it was aweful. It's one of those huge black marks on our record. But compare that to the death camps or the Japanes rape camps...entire complexes where Chinese women were treated as disposable pleasures. It's just not even close. Figuratively speaking, we're a schoolyard bully, the others are full fledged mafia dons. I'm one of those people who is critical of missteps of the US, a lot more so than a lot of people here are comfortable with. And I think we can move in a more positive direction. But I really do object to the gross mischaractarization of things....it's intellectually dishonest.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944

...or Catholic Poles. 3 Million of us that no one ever hears us bitching about. Whiney fucking jews. Ok, sorry, before every hysterical yenta from the north shore gets on my ass...I know you had it worse. But still, it's like we don't even exist. WTF. We suffered too, I grew up with d/c survivors, and they never got any recognition.

Compare those camps with the internment camps: YEAH we dicked the Japanese Americans, it was aweful. It's one of those huge black marks on our record. But compare that to the death camps or the Japanes rape camps...entire complexes where Chinese women were treated as disposable pleasures. It's just not even close. Figuratively speaking, we're a schoolyard bully, the others are full fledged mafia dons. I'm one of those people who is critical of missteps of the US, a lot more so than a lot of people here are comfortable with. And I think we can move in a more positive direction. But I really do object to the gross mischaractarization of things....it's intellectually dishonest.

fyi, i'm not jewish. just so you know.

9/12/12
fermion:

fyi, i'm not jewish. just so you know.

Yeah, I'm going to give myself a time out for that one. Uncalled for.

Long story short, 911 was a bunch of nuts and we killed them. Deal with it.

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944

...or Catholic Poles. 3 Million of us that no one ever hears us bitching about. Whiney fucking jews. Ok, sorry, before every hysterical yenta from the north shore gets on my ass...I know you had it worse. But still, it's like we don't even exist. WTF. We suffered too, I grew up with d/c survivors, and they never got any recognition.

Compare those camps with the internment camps: YEAH we dicked the Japanese Americans, it was aweful. It's one of those huge black marks on our record. But compare that to the death camps or the Japanes rape camps...entire complexes where Chinese women were treated as disposable pleasures. It's just not even close. Figuratively speaking, we're a schoolyard bully, the others are full fledged mafia dons. I'm one of those people who is critical of missteps of the US, a lot more so than a lot of people here are comfortable with. And I think we can move in a more positive direction. But I really do object to the gross mischaractarization of things....it's intellectually dishonest.

whoa, i need to re-enter here. comparing japanese american concentration camps with what japan was doing? is this a brain fart on your part? i give you credit for being a smart fellow, so i hope you can distinguish between americans of foreign ancestry and a foreign power. japanese americans were no more connected to hirohito's crimes than german-descended eisenhower to hitler's. to mention the japanese american internment and japanese war crimes in the same sentence is so wrongheaded i would almost say you are trolling.

9/12/12
fermion:
UFOinsider:
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944

...or Catholic Poles. 3 Million of us that no one ever hears us bitching about. Whiney fucking jews. Ok, sorry, before every hysterical yenta from the north shore gets on my ass...I know you had it worse. But still, it's like we don't even exist. WTF. We suffered too, I grew up with d/c survivors, and they never got any recognition.

Compare those camps with the internment camps: YEAH we dicked the Japanese Americans, it was aweful. It's one of those huge black marks on our record. But compare that to the death camps or the Japanes rape camps...entire complexes where Chinese women were treated as disposable pleasures. It's just not even close. Figuratively speaking, we're a schoolyard bully, the others are full fledged mafia dons. I'm one of those people who is critical of missteps of the US, a lot more so than a lot of people here are comfortable with. And I think we can move in a more positive direction. But I really do object to the gross mischaractarization of things....it's intellectually dishonest.

whoa, i need to re-enter here. comparing japanese american concentration camps with what japan was doing? is this a brain fart on your part? i give you credit for being a smart fellow, so i hope you can distinguish between americans of foreign ancestry and a foreign power. japanese americans were no more connected to hirohito's crimes than german-descended eisenhower to hitler's. to mention the japanese american internment and japanese war crimes in the same sentence is so wrongheaded i would almost say you are trolling.

I think you misunderstood: look at us at our worst and compare that to standard operating proceedure for our enemies at the time. Then look at what we built after the war compared to the reality they wanted. Is ours perfect? Hell no, and I'm a critic. But compared to the reality we faced...I'll take it. I'm idealistic and realize that many are not...but sometimes life is choosing between the lesser of evils and I'll take American preeminence over every other empire that's come before us.

I'd also like of the rest of the world could just get their shit together and we not be involved quite so much, but more wishful thinking on my part. You think that if we pull our troops home tomorrow that China is going to be kinder than us?

Get busy living

9/12/12
UFOinsider:
fermion:
UFOinsider:
fermion:

we could have saved thousands of jews in europe by bombing the train lines in 1944

...or Catholic Poles. 3 Million of us that no one ever hears us bitching about. Whiney fucking jews. Ok, sorry, before every hysterical yenta from the north shore gets on my ass...I know you had it worse. But still, it's like we don't even exist. WTF. We suffered too, I grew up with d/c survivors, and they never got any recognition.

Compare those camps with the internment camps: YEAH we dicked the Japanese Americans, it was aweful. It's one of those huge black marks on our record. But compare that to the death camps or the Japanes rape camps...entire complexes where Chinese women were treated as disposable pleasures. It's just not even close. Figuratively speaking, we're a schoolyard bully, the others are full fledged mafia dons. I'm one of those people who is critical of missteps of the US, a lot more so than a lot of people here are comfortable with. And I think we can move in a more positive direction. But I really do object to the gross mischaractarization of things....it's intellectually dishonest.

whoa, i need to re-enter here. comparing japanese american concentration camps with what japan was doing? is this a brain fart on your part? i give you credit for being a smart fellow, so i hope you can distinguish between americans of foreign ancestry and a foreign power. japanese americans were no more connected to hirohito's crimes than german-descended eisenhower to hitler's. to mention the japanese american internment and japanese war crimes in the same sentence is so wrongheaded i would almost say you are trolling.

I think you misunderstood: look at us at our worst and compare that to standard operating proceedure for our enemies at the time. Then look at what we built after the war compared to the reality they wanted. Is ours perfect? Hell no, and I'm a critic. But compared to the reality we faced...I'll take it. I'm idealistic and realize that many are not...but sometimes life is choosing between the lesser of evils and I'll take American preeminence over every other empire that's come before us.

I'd also like of the rest of the world could just get their shit together and we not be involved quite so much, but more wishful thinking on my part. You think that if we pull our troops home tomorrow that China is going to be kinder than us?

just one last point.

YES, china will be kinder to us. if the chinese navy were constantly saber rattling in massachusetts bay and the gulf of mexico, how would we feel? if they invaded southern mexico and we had to push them back to a mexican DMZ when they hit the Rio Grande, how would we feel? if chinese generals in said mexican war constantly threatened and brayed about nuking some american cities in texas in california? if china parked nuclear-armed military forces in canada, mexico, the caribbean and islets all over our pacific and atlantic littoral waters? if in recent history, china was one of several asian countries who colonized us, demanded extraterritorial rights at the point of a gun, and sent their marines on punitive raids in US territory when our government didn't play ball?

i return to herbert hoover's lament about us going around the world sticking pins in rattlesnakes hours after pearl harbor. either we knock it off or we get used to getting bit. i'm out. have fun with this thread.

9/12/12
UFOinsider:

we actually DO want the world to be a better place and the people we're facing off against are pretty vile.

That's why the US diplomats always shout out loud how retarded is Saudi Arabia.
Oh no wait... they are nice and provide oil, who cares what they are doing.

9/12/12
Zafrynex:
UFOinsider:

we actually DO want the world to be a better place and the people we're facing off against are pretty vile.

That's why the US diplomats always shout out loud how retarded is Saudi Arabia.
Oh no wait... they are nice and provide oil, who cares what they are doing.

This isn't well thought out is it?

You realize that based on the cost of oil, the western nations could simply have gone in and colonized that nation permanently right? And it would have cost less too. They could have sat on the entire middle east, and SUCCESSFULLY converted the entire population into serfs while milking the resources. They were and still are that far ahead in terms of technological achievement.

I can't fault that there's a good measure of humanity in the US foreign policy, opportunistic though it may be.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

9/12/12
Anomanderis:
Zafrynex:
UFOinsider:

we actually DO want the world to be a better place and the people we're facing off against are pretty vile.

That's why the US diplomats always shout out loud how retarded is Saudi Arabia.
Oh no wait... they are nice and provide oil, who cares what they are doing.

This isn't well thought out is it?

You realize that based on the cost of oil, the western nations could simply have gone in and colonized that nation permanently right? And it would have cost less too. They could have sat on the entire middle east, and SUCCESSFULLY converted the entire population into serfs while milking the resources. They were and still are that far ahead in terms of technological achievement.

I can't fault that there's a good measure of humanity in the US foreign policy, opportunistic though it may be.

No because Russia wouldn't allow it.
Neither would China, because it would go too far against their interest.
And those can actuall do some serious damage to the US.

End of your faery tale.

9/12/12

This represents a gross violation of American sovereignty, the response should be swift and brutal.

9/12/12

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

9/12/12

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

9/12/12
fermion:

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

So all those fat tories who sing the praises of the British Empire and how they brought railroads and the English language to the savages are figments of my imagination?

9/12/12
fermion:

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

So all those fat tories who sing the praises of the British Empire and how they brought railroads and the English language to the savages are figments of my imagination?

not at all. i've actually met a few myself from all over the commonwealth. i like to think of them as white dinesh d'souzas.

9/12/12
fermion:

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

Oh c'mon Fermion (don't we know each other?)

The US is simply doing what everyone in this position would have done. You don't rise to number one and remain there without a good measure of ruthlessness and cynicism. I don't think the US policies are angelic, neither do I think they are demonic. If not the US, some other nation with a different morality would have done the same. God forbid it be an islamic nation.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

9/12/12
Anomanderis:
fermion:

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

Oh c'mon Fermion (don't we know each other?)

The US is simply doing what everyone in this position would have done. You don't rise to number one and remain there without a good measure of ruthlessness and cynicism. I don't think the US policies are angelic, neither do I think they are demonic. If not the US, some other nation with a different morality would have done the same. God forbid it be an islamic nation.

i entirely agree with you. that is all.

9/12/12
fermion:
Anomanderis:
fermion:

"USA has a completely self-interested foreign policy"

Can someone point me to a country that doesn't have a selfish foreign policy?

there are none. however, we are unique in that we have a polity that is presently convinced that we do what we do to spread democracy and freedom everywhere. even the modern europeans laugh at their own old imperial propaganda about bringing telegraphs and the salvation of christ to ignorant, benighted africans.

Oh c'mon Fermion (don't we know each other?)

The US is simply doing what everyone in this position would have done. You don't rise to number one and remain there without a good measure of ruthlessness and cynicism. I don't think the US policies are angelic, neither do I think they are demonic. If not the US, some other nation with a different morality would have done the same. God forbid it be an islamic nation.

i entirely agree with you. that is all.

It might be prudent here to point out that I don't hate Islam more than any other religion, I hate them all the same for the mindless aggressive and thoughtless dogma that they are. Well, at least the Judaic/Abrahamic ones.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

9/12/12
Anomanderis:

Oh c'mon Fermion (don't we know each other?)

The US is simply doing what everyone in this position would have done. You don't rise to number one and remain there without a good measure of ruthlessness and cynicism. I don't think the US policies are angelic, neither do I think they are demonic. If not the US, some other nation with a different morality would have done the same. God forbid it be an islamic nation.

Yep, agreed...
US does what it takes to remain in its dominant position, and occasionnaly stretches the rope a bit too far, which pisses people off here and there.

9/12/12

The funny thing is, this shit happens to the US all the time and we are just suppose to sit back and take it otherwise we are blood-thirsty hate mongers.

I would love to see the world's reaction and Russia's retaliation to some terrorist fuck-heads flying a hijacked plain into St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow. Guarantee you no one would be condemning Russia for the promised ass kickings and worldwide man hunt they would bring on the organization responsible.

You're born, you take shit. You get out in the world, you take more shit. You climb a little higher, you take less shit. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shit even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake, son.

9/12/12

Here you guys go:
http://imgur.com/a/tlCyI

Everyone should take a couple deep breaths.

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Other nations HAVE done far worse when they were powerful. France , for all her yapping , behaved abysmally when she had power. As did England. As did Italy under the Roman empire As especially , did the Arabs

9/12/12

Other nations HAVE done far worse when they were powerful. France , for all her yapping , behaved abysmally when she had power. As did England. As did Italy under the Roman empire As especially , did the Arabs

Persia. Assyria. Egypt. Even (for a really short time in a tiny area) Israel. All nasty, nasty genocidal people

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

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Other nations HAVE done far worse when they were powerful. France , for all her yapping , behaved abysmally when she had power. As did England. As did Italy under the Roman empire As especially , did the Arabs

interesting point. are we to say, for instance, that leopold's crimes in the congo are somehow mitigated because he wasn't as bad as tamerlane? yes, our civilized belgian monarch did hack off many childrens' hands to punish parents for not meeting their gold panning quotas, but by god, at least he didn't build towers made of human skulls.

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fermion:

Other nations HAVE done far worse when they were powerful. France , for all her yapping , behaved abysmally when she had power. As did England. As did Italy under the Roman empire As especially , did the Arabs

interesting point. are we to say, for instance, that leopold's crimes in the congo are somehow mitigated because he wasn't as bad as tamerlane? yes, our civilized belgian monarch did hack off many childrens' hands to punish parents for not meeting their gold panning quotas, but by god, at least he didn't build towers made of human skulls.

You know this post is agriculture. Farming ;)

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

9/12/12

This shouldn't be a country vs country argument.

US is has a lot of idiots. US idiots bomb child hospitals.

Lybia has a lot of idiots. Lybia idiots burn embassies down.

Every country has a lot of idiots - those idiots do agressive and idiotic things.

The majority of people in US, Lybia, or wherever isn't directly responsible for those acts of idiocy and is just trying to live their lives. There's no point in people hating each other because they were randomly born somewhere else.

As a side note, I don't buy the movie reasoning as well. Half the teens in the world made fun of the religion on Facebook - South Park is making fun of all religions for 15 years or so, and nobody breaks a sweat.

How many views that "movie" had before the attack? Like 12 I guess... The only winner here (in some way) is the movie producer. Well, not even that. Now everyone knows how much he sucks at filmmaking

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Improving:

This shouldn't be a country vs country argument.

US is has a lot of idiots. US idiots bomb child hospitals.

Lybia has a lot of idiots. Lybia idiots burn embassies down.

Every country has a lot of idiots - those idiots do agressive and idiotic things.

The majority of people in US, Lybia, or wherever isn't directly responsible for those acts of idiocy and is just trying to live their lives. There's no point in people hating each other because they were randomly born somewhere else.

As a side note, I don't buy the movie reasoning as well. Half the teens in the world made fun of the religion on Facebook - South Park is making fun of all religions for 15 years or so, and nobody breaks a sweat.

How many views that "movie" had before the attack? Like 12 I guess... The only winner here (in some way) is the movie producer. Well, not even that. Now everyone knows how much he sucks at filmmaking

Playa!

See I don't get religion, this whole idea of idiotic people running around killing people in the name of an unseen god and another idiot who died almost 2000 years ago. If your god is so strong and awesome, damn it, let him do his own killing.

I'm sorry, I don't agree that insulting mohammed is an abomination, he's dead, his flesh is rotted, his teeth have fallen out.

It's the ignorance that gets to me, the lazy minded people without independent thought that are so easily herded into working against their own interests.

But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

9/12/12
Anomanderis:
Improving:

This shouldn't be a country vs country argument.

US is has a lot of idiots. US idiots bomb child hospitals.

Lybia has a lot of idiots. Lybia idiots burn embassies down.

Every country has a lot of idiots - those idiots do agressive and idiotic things.

The majority of people in US, Lybia, or wherever isn't directly responsible for those acts of idiocy and is just trying to live their lives. There's no point in people hating each other because they were randomly born somewhere else.

As a side note, I don't buy the movie reasoning as well. Half the teens in the world made fun of the religion on Facebook - South Park is making fun of all religions for 15 years or so, and nobody breaks a sweat.

How many views that "movie" had before the attack? Like 12 I guess... The only winner here (in some way) is the movie producer. Well, not even that. Now everyone knows how much he sucks at filmmaking

Playa!

See I don't get religion, this whole idea of idiotic people running around killing people in the name of an unseen god and another idiot who died almost 2000 years ago. If your god is so strong and awesome, damn it, let him do his own killing.

I'm sorry, I don't agree that insulting mohammed is an abomination, he's dead, his flesh is rotted, his teeth have fallen out.

It's the ignorance that gets to me, the lazy minded people without independent thought that are so easily herded into working against their own interests.

Religion
* Dates back to band-level societies
* Solves a coordination problem of group action, esp.
for warfare (which was common)
* Coordinated societies that permit sustained group
action have a significant advantage over other groups
* Reinforced lineage with worship of dead ancestors
* Reinforced private property with burial grounds
* Provides legitimacy of ruler

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But Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought bravely.

And Rhaegar died.

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Get busy living

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