Goldman or Bust?

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On the other hand, the prestige whoring phase for colleges almost never ends for a lot of people.

TEXAS BOWL WINNERS FTW! :)

From my experience at my uni all the Goldman Sachs prestige whores either have no shot in high finance, do not understand what banking is and the respective divisions, or have 2inch dick syndrome..

Getting a job at any of the BBs in no easier or harder. its all about timing and relative competition.

It always makes me think of this from leveraged sellout

Which would you rather be? (A) An M&A MD at Jeffries (B) A PWM VP at Bear (C) A trade settlement analyst at Lehman (D) A HR intern at GS (E) A janitor at Citadel

Obviously choice D..

ITS FUCKING GOLDMAN SACHS BRAH

Rose Bowl Winners!!

Haha, turns out it was probably best to be in M&A at Jefferies. See guys, this is why it's best to find a good fit. Stuff changes so quickly in this industry.

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The new book "Spent" talks about how we're inclined to show off to others. To the general public, Goldman simply has the most name recognition as a "prestigious" bank. Some of the "public" may have assets at UBS, (had) Merill Lynch, etc., but very few will ever even hope of having them at Goldman. So, it's the allure of being part of the "in" club. Much like in high school, being part of the popular crowd might be worse given the flakiness of friends than being in the close-knight drama nerd crowd, but that doesn't mean that everyone doesn't want to be them.

Generalizations, of course, but you get the idea. I've always been inclined towards wearing/working for high quality but relatively unknown names, so I don't fully understand the phenomenon. Also maybe not understanding jokes on WSO and on other blogs like Dealbreak that do say Goldman is the only thing ever in jest.

who has more internet fanboys: GS or Apple ??

It's just the different lengths people will go to accomplish their 'dream'. This could apply not only to GS, but other banks as well. Everyone has different motivations to do the things they do, and as long as they're happy with where they are at the end of the day, who's to say fixation with a certain bank is so wrong?

We find the "Goldman Syndrome" across industries and time (i too fell pray) it is definitely not unique to finance...Elway wouldn't play for Baltimore, Kobe wouldn't play for Charlotte, Eli wouldn't play for San Diego they all forced trades that landed them in other more prestigious cities for their respective sports. These players viewed their initial teams as ones that they could never win with, among other things. Similar to many monkeys thinking that the only way to win is to become part of The Goldman .

These people simply have a different personality than say a Michael Jordan or Peyton Manning who didn't care where they were drafted because they were going to do whatever it took to win. Everyone mentioned won championships they just went about it in different ways. I am not saying there is anything wrong with striving for, or getting GS - congrats to anyone that does. Just saying to keep things in perspective once you have your foot in the door the $ is up to you. A great analyst at MM bank XYZ could go on to do more than a terrible analyst at GS (Think Joe Montana vs Ryan Leaf).

My thought on the "Goldman Syndrome" is that some people have this idea that the name on their jersey/paychecks defines them and there are other who don't. It would be foolish to say one group is better than the other they are just different people. Different strokes for different folks.

Full disclosure - I had a phone interview with GS and did not get a position and that didn't kill me I wanted to do S&T and at least publicly they projected the image of shaping the firm to be IB > ST going forward. Fortunately I found a bank that is growing one of their trading businesses and landed there. The benefit of "Goldman Syndrome" is that it raises everyone's game just a little bit.

Goldman or bust comes from.....this, not saying this thread is bad but we talk about GS so much that people want to be a part of something that is talked about so much remember a lot of these GS or bust kids are people who were always outsiders so they are extremely insecure. So being part of the "cool" is so appealing and ultimately leads to there demise

Posted before, I'm sure, but relevant nonetheless:

Thank you for posting this and getting it onto the front page of WSO.

Feel free to correct me...

But I just read "Liar's Poker" and it seems to me that Goldman Sachs, while always having a reputable name, wasn't always the BSD giant it is now (rather was prior to 08'). And now-a-days, it seems like GS is in the growing stage of trying to get back to the top. Sure it's a great opportunity, but I think JPM is much more sustainable in terms of equity and exit opportunities. Do the executives of the same level in JPM get compensated the same as GS?

Yup. Back in the '80s, it was Drexel-Burnham and maybe Salomon Brothers. Salomon is now Citigroup and Drexel-Burnham got taken down in the S&L scandal and went bankrupt back in 1991.

If you work for a bank, discussing bonus/total comp is generally forbidden. People who comment on it online are either a whole lot braver or a whole lot dumber than I am. That said, Dealbreaker is generally a not entirely unreliable source on comp info.

I know a few people who work at S&T and IBD at Goldman and they are all miserable. They are the kings of face time and so much of the culture is conditioning people to believe staying the extra few hours or so (largely for no reason) is due to the fact that Goldman is the best. When my mate started out in Equities S&T they made them stay late to 11 pm or so (in cash equities) to brainstorm and plan trade ideas.

Is that useful...maybe. Is it worth it...ummm no.

Kids who aim blindly for the prestige factor will go nowhere in our business. ...something tells me GS won't be around forever. Too conflicted/unethical. Like a goddamn octopus with it's tentacles wrapped around the face of America ;) (Or maybe I'm just secretly wishing it blows up.)

I think its a phase, most of these kids are just going through it. Majority have no idea about the industry and it is just the name recognition, sooner or later everyone finds their own niche.

Wow this is actually a question that I've been trying to ask. I've been told by certain professors that GS Hong Kong would be a discount I should take over CS New York, while my personal feel is that NYC experience at a top BB should more relevant if I want to end up in the city.

However I've been struggling with my own personal decision. I didn't take the their HK offer on the spot b/c like everyone said here, it is just a name. I'm leaning toward it now, though, but it's really because I feel a great fit with the GS HK team after speaking to a lot of people. I'm happy and comfortable when I talk to them. On top of that, my interest is in FICC and Credit Suisse apparently doesn't do so well in this area (I talked to someone in fx and right now they're 8th?).

So i guess now my problem is a "New York complex" really... Advice anyone? If I'm not going to GS HK for the name, is it still a good decision?

Kids trying to break into the industry are obsessed with money and bonuses, and Goldman gets by far the most press with regards to their payouts so naturally people are going to be attracted to them. The reality of the situation is that there is a certain amount of brain washing that goes on within the firm that is pretty effective in getting people to put in everything they have to do the job well. The problem is the rewards don't really materialize until you get high up in the firm. Juniors at Goldman gat paid largely the same as at the other BB's, and most of the ones I know are miserable.

GS? More like Silvergirl-Saks BCG is now number 2 in Fortune's list "Best Companies to Work for" Now, that's what I call music (or prestige)

BCG? What does that stand for? In any case, Edward Jones is #2 on the list I see; RW Baird is #11.

Interestingly, the average pay at Milwaukee-based MM Baird is $5K less than the average pay at GS. Maybe some GS folks should consider saving $1000/month on rent and moving to Milwaukee. :D :D :D (Think Fortune actually underestimated).

Eh, I have worked at GS, in a shitty role, and at lesser firms in better roles. Being in a good role is more important IMHO than the firm you work at. I got no respect at GS, and was shafted.

Focus on the job. Its a much tougher call for two FO jobs between firms, but if it comes down to an MO job at GS, or an FO job at a "lesser" bank, take the FO job any day.

Then again, you are probably going to hate what you do anyway after a few years, so maybe choosing by firm isn't the worst thing... :)

BCG = Boston Consulting Group

No I'm not. Heard of Boston Consulting Group- they're a consulting firm kinda like Deloitte or IBM. Why are we using consulting abbreviations on a banking forum? Also, MBB in the context of banking typically is used for Major Bulge Bracket (Top 5 firm), not Moelis/Boston/ Big 4 Accenture.

Not being sarcastic- I grew up in the midwest and have never been to Boston since I moved to New York. And again, what does consulting have to do with trading or banking?

I've heard of Boston Consulting Group, but I would figure BCG would stand for Barclays Capital in the context of banking/trading before a consulting firm.

Yeah I never thought about NOT going to NYC much until nterviewing with GS HK. But I have no family in the US, just some friends in the financial services industry in NYC.

My major reason for wanting to be there is really just because I thought I'd get more experience there, but I think if people in the HK really like me (which seems to be the case), wouldn't I get MORE experience learning from people willing to teach me?And yes, I really love the people there, we've been on the phone for hours since this past Sunday when I was extended an offer.

I liked the people at CS, but not the trading floor as much, plus aren't they not that great in FICC? That's my main interest in S&T. I wouldn't work there if it wasn't NYC, but I would consider HK if it was another top BB. Do I guess I'm making a right decision?

@ah choose the place where you will lay the most pipe

i.e. best all around experience inside and outside of work.

Then you know what, it sounds like you're leaning in the right direction with GS.

Talk to Mom and Dad and get some advice. They've got 20-30 years experience on you when it comes to working. If they agree with you and YOU personally like the idea of working at GS HK, my advice is to take it.

derivstrading:

Honestly, what is this huge focus on working for Goldman? It is just another bank, and especially for Sales and Trading, success depends on a lot more than the brand name of where you work. The idea of choosing brand name over division really just boggles my mind. Are you not interested in finance at all? Is it just a matter of telling your parents/friends/gf/yourself that you are a BSD? Can anyone of the college kids explain to me the rationale behind this way of thinking?

The general vibe I get on WSO is that money and status are the main reasons for working in finance.

Anyway I work for a rival bank and one of my career goals is to destroy GS.

It's "she". And I'm Asian.

Oops!

I honestly I do not get the Goldman Sachs thing. I've interviewed there 3 times (not IBD but roles kids beat off for) and I always got this creepy/culty vibe; I may too add I didn't get any of them. At GS training, they teach you the "GS way". How to dress, to talk, even cut your hair. They quite literally indoctrinate their jr people, this is fact.

I feel like kids from any other BB have and can do just as well w/ buyside placement. If you really want to be work with the best bankers go to Lazard or BX restructuring. GS is WAY to fucking touchy feely. When Lloyd said GS is doing God's work, I don't think he was joking/using hyperbole. That mother fucker was serious as a heart attack.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Lx4poQw1mZo

i watch this video once a day for a good laugh.... hahaha

Why You Wish You Worked At Goldman Sachs (And No It's Not The Money)

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-family#ixzz1CQZCXeYZ

Not sure about the GS hype but I think the key sentence here is "Also, the firm scored nine points higher than the average score on whether, "Management hires people who fit in well here."

At some point you get tired of the middle-management idiots and brown-nosing free-riders and just want to work for someone who knows what they are doing and inspires respect whether it is GS or a smaller fund. I think the frustration is trying to break into trading without knowing an insider...still trying to figure that one out

Great thread, really enjoyed this one!

Bit childish....this GS obsession....but fact is, its the way of the (wall street) world.....random finance jerkoffs who you may meet will be more impressed if you say you work at Goldman (wowww so whats it like being such a hotshot) than if you say barclays (so youre a bank teller??)

CS/UBS/DB/BOAML/Citi = Trash

Seriously, I can think of some very funny acronyms for these can you?

In the Post Volcker Rule era Goldman is no longer the place to be. 90% of the reason to work there was the prop trading, which drastically overtook IBD in terms of profits. Now their prop shop has moved to KKR, which is the new GS, at least among those who have graduated from college.

Bateman Begins:

CS/UBS/DB/BOAML/Citi = Trash

Seriously, I can think of some very funny acronyms for these can you?

In the Post Volcker Rule era Goldman is no longer the place to be. 90% of the reason to work there was the prop trading, which drastically overtook IBD in terms of profits. Now their prop shop has moved to KKR, which is the new GS, at least among those who have graduated from college.

Reminds me of my friend in college who had a back office offer from GS and an IBD offer from MS. He took the GS gig and I remember it so clearly the way he walked around campus like he owned the place. He would just constantly mention how he is going to work for Goldman Sachs in conversations that had nothing to do with banking or careers. Anyways I haven't kept in touch since graduation, but I am sure he is enjoying his data analyst job at GS making a solid $45k in NYC.

TeddyTheBear:

Reminds me of my friend in college who had a back office offer from GS and an IBD offer from MS. He took the GS gig and I remember it so clearly the way he walked around campus like he owned the place. He would just constantly mention how he is going to work for Goldman Sachs in conversations that had nothing to do with banking or careers. Anyways I haven't kept in touch since graduation, but I am sure he is enjoying his data analyst job at GS making a solid $45k in NYC.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore

I hope this isn't regarding our conversation about applying for an MBA.

If so, it is true that the BB name is better than the unknown prop shop even if the latter may be harder to get in.

im surprised JPM isnt on the list. gS is overrated, really.

social prestige is a fucked up thing

id love to see some research on the subject; i myself was long a brand-name hunter even though i knew that it was bullshit... there is some fire still left in me to get HSW MBA in the future, only for the brand lol...

ciwd:

im surprised JPM isnt on the list. gS is overrated, really.

The only real reason I would like to work at GS is because I have had much better rapport with school alumni that work there compared to other firms, so I figure that I would like the firm culture more.

I think the only reason GS is known to be more prestigious is because it doesnt have a retail or commercial bank. So if you work with GS its implied that your in IBD, even if your in back office, but for BofA, Citi, and JPM, its generally implied you are not in IBD.

I'd honestly love to work at GS just to prove to myself that my hard work really did pay off. Yeah it would be pretty sick to work there and have that prestige factor on my resume and what not, but from what I've read it makes it seem like GS shapes you into some kind of drone. All else equal, I'd rather work at a place where I fit in and like the people I work with. At the end of the day people outside the banking world really don't give a fuck what you do 5min after you've told them.

You do have to admit though, that 200w is a much better building and office space which has very nice facilities than the others I have been in throughout NY. Correct me if I am wrong, as I obviously have not been to ALL of the offices around.

From a college student's perspective, Goldman has fallen behind - Blackstone is all the rage now.

Whether you like it or not, guys, Goldman is the top dog. That's it. Haters gonna hate, point at the culture, brainwash or whatnot. But Goldman is the fucking top dog.

^ yet if you are, say, trading spot FX, it is far from top place to be. Yes it has an aura about it, but the majority who hold it in such high regard are students who have no idea about the business or what factors are important in deciding where the best place to work is. Always amazes me how many people on this forum claim to have offers when they clearly have no clue about the job they've applied for. It's the one major downside to working in finance that you meet so many people who seem to have all these preconceptions about rankings and prestige yet seemingly no clue about the roles themselves.

This "Goldman" phenomenon is getting really bad in high schools to. All these kids want to do finance and be an investment banker at Goldman Sachs, yet they don't even know what IB is and they couldn't tell me the name of another BB. They just want to impress their family and friends.

Its funny, the last place I want to work for in ibd is Goldman. Why the hell would i slave those extra 20 hours or even more a week in a sweatshop group for the name brand? not a fan, unless the people I meet are awesome and super nice... which idk, depends on every group

I'll take the "CS/UBS/DB/BOAML/Citi = Trash". except UBS..