IBD vs. S&T: Which is better?
Which one has the higher compensation? More prestige? Better hours? Better exit opportunities? More job security? What's the job environment like for each?
Which one has the higher compensation? More prestige? Better hours? Better exit opportunities? More job security? What's the job environment like for each?
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Different strokes for different folks. For prestige, they're kind of not comparable; some companies do great at IB but not at S&T and vice versa. Hours are less for S&T, but many consider it more stressful. You have your weekends for trading but while you are trading it is nonstop high pressure situations all day. As far as comp goes, at the lower levels (analyst/associate), the pay is almost exactly the same. Trading though, if you're good, can bring ridiculous bonuses and probably produces more 20-something millionaires.
Job security? Neither is great. Banks like to slash during downturns. Given the fact that trading constitutes a bigger chunk of the company's balance sheets, it will likely have more jobs but also more firings if things go sour.
Exit opps have different opportunities too. Traders can go into prop trading, hedge funds, and alternative investment management. Bankers like going the private equity route, or if you get burned out, corp development.
Environment is intense in both, but probably moreso in trading. Just a lot of intensity because of the rapid pace and high amount of zeros in many trades. Banking though has its own pressures, like having to stay up until 7 am to finish a pitchbook, go home, change shirts/shower, and go back to the office to prepare last minute changes for the morning pitch or meeting. Depends on the type of person you are. If you are high energy but need time to cool off and relax, trading might be better. If you are more of the endurance/distance runner, you can weather the daily drain of banking.
BTW, nobody can tell you which is better. They both have their pros/cons. You have to match that to your interests. Read the Vault guides and use the Search tool on the board to read more. Eventually you're gonna have to decide for yourself. Best way to do that is to get experience through internships and shadows. If a trading floor and 6-computer screen trading desk scare the shit out of you, S&T is probably a bad idea.
trading is really intense and bad traders who don't do their analysis get knocked out. On the other hand, if you read up on all your stuff and manage risk well, then trading is for you. You can make so much money at senior levels and I'm not talking about 2-3MM, I'm talking 10-15 MM if you are good enough.
If you're going to stay in it and think you'll be good at it, go S&T. High up, pay is much better. IB on the other hand probably gives you enough exposure in coverage groups to move back into the industry. If you do badly in S&T, you're screwed.
That is less true for sales than it is trading. Depending on what kind of sales you do, if you're more on the hedging/risk management side for corporates, you can definitely move into industry. Former colleagues of mine have done it.
With IBD you become industrious but with S&T you learn the product and the technicals which go with it. If you like the buzz of the trading floor and want to understand how markets work (market making, etc.) then trading is for you. 10 years down the line, a IBD person would be more tempted of starting his own business or investing in a business (VC/entrep'ship) whereas the trader would be inclined to run his own portfolio and trade stocks online. I feel that traders are somehow limited when they quit as their set of skills and knowledg base are restricted to only what they know and worked with. Whereas a IBD person can apply his core skills (valuation, industry knowledge, etc.) to many situations (and probably can run his own portfolio as well).
Why do people write S&T when they mean trading...are you guys not aware of the difference?
Agreed with fp175, Sales is much different from trading, although they work together they are very different roles
Most banks hire kids into S&T analyst programs, then they differentiate into sales or trading after training or even after working for 1-2 years. That is why it's referred to as S&T. Plus there's a lot of overlap between sales and trading.
.
asshole
S&T vs. IBD - Opportunity to work at UBS as an SA (Originally Posted: 09/05/2007)
Hey guys, I was wondering, is S&T more meritocritous than IBD and are the opportunities for advancement better? I have an opportunity to work at UBS or Bear this summer as an SA from a very non-target and I was wondering what area I should apply to. I know IB Analysts make more money starting out but I think my skillset in terms of personality and charisma could be put to better use in Sales and Trading as opposed to IB. I was also wondering what really makes a great salesman, is it simply sales ability or the ability to generate great ideas. Any help would be appreciated.
IBD analysts do not make more than S&T analysts, they are paid about the same. Ive never been in IBD but i can tell you quality of life in S&T is generally much better. You actually have time outside of work to do things.
s&t does not pay less, is more merit based...success in sales is based on both things. and sales ability is no simple thing
I don't think sales ability can be put down to any one thing, I know people who would seem to be very good at sales but when it came down to it they failed for any number of reasons. Alternatively there are people who you would not think would be good at sales yet do very well. Basically I think it comes down to the individual, you won't know until you do it. I also think that some time spent in sales of any area (not only banking) develops or enhances the skills needed to succeed in business, even if you end up being mediocre you will get a lot out it.
Based on my experience this summer on a sales desk I totally agree. There are the sales people who hang out with their buy-side buddies every other night at the pub, have incredible social and communication skills and can basically sell anything to their clients. On the other hand you will also find very successful salesmen who use a strict analytical approach and convince their clients with their ideas instead of their personality.
Most salesmen are somewhere in between, but the point is I agree that there is not one specific skillset that makes a good salesman.
Yes, S&T is more "meritocratic" than IBD. Opportunities for advancement are better if you're good, but in general they're just very different. In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader. In IBD, it's much easier to hide if you suck, and certain groups tend to be a little more stable.
by the way, your supposed situation is not very credible. you have an "opportunity to work" (offer?) at Bear or UBS next summer, but you dont even know which side of the firm you would be on? if you have a question for us, just go ahead and ask, you dont need to make up a bunch of stuff.
You wrote: "In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader."
That's not true at all. First, no one gives a shit whether the market does well or not. You care whether or not there is volatility. Bull, bear--all irrelevant. What matters is vol because that's why corporates hedge and also what allows you to do complex trades. No one buys something hoping it will go up or sells something hoping it will go done. Very little work that is that simplistic is done on the trading floor these days.
The key to S&T is being able to understand the ever-more complex trades banks are doing now, and to be able to apply high-level finance to different situations for different clients.
And the sales people you describe as going out to dinner every night with their buyside buddies are a dying breed. That type of work only happens on flow desks, which are at the dying end of the business.
Danbush is a XXX, I usually don't answer annoying questions but I will for you. I have two people on the board of BS and I have one superstar MD at UBS who both told me that I can work wherever I choose, that's why I am debating this. I am bright enough and possibly delusional enough to believe that I will get a full time offer after the summer so that is why I am weighing these options very carefully.
To everyone else, thanks alot for the help and clarification.
^I don't think danbush even works in the industry so don't focus on his comments too much. jimbo, skins, and structure have the monopoly on valuable responses
You might want to look at this:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/node/6139
I lean towards S&T, but that's a personal preference.
"In S&T, you are gambling on 2 things: the possibility that the market will do well, and the possibility that you are actually a good inst salesperson or trader."
Trading is all about the bid/ask spreads, which exist in a bear or bull market. A day with tight spreads is a bad day for traders. However, if you end up with something like the NYSE computer correction that happened early this year during the subprime crisis (200 point movement in the Dow within a matter of seconds), there'll be some problems too.
Now, portfolio management or ibanking are way more dependent on the market than S&T.
IBD VS S&T - Which is better OVERALL (Originally Posted: 10/05/2015)
In your opinion fellow Monkeys, which comes out on top?
1) Highest starting salary?
2) Highest long-term Salary ceiling? ie Best banker vs best trader- who could earn more?
3) Worst hours?
4) Most competitive ?
5) Best exit opps ?
6) Your own personal preference, my fellow monkeys?
This post is asinine.
Wherever you can get a job young one. That's the better one....
But based on the OP criteria, what is your opinion?
It's the equivalent of saying would you rather manage Spurs or Bulls? You'd take either one obviously.
But the point is which would you prefer based on all the options ? IBD vs S&T?
1) They're the same at the BBs. $85k base + 10k signing.
2) Probably comparable. Analysts will make mid-100s, MDs can easily make 7 figures in both.
3) 60-70/wk average for S&T, 80+ for IBD
4) Equally competitive to break into
5) Depends on where you want to end up - most people in S&T aren't looking for exit opps. Impossible to compare
DIFFERENCE: S&T AND IB ? (Originally Posted: 01/25/2011)
can someone please explain to me the exact differences between sales and trading and investment banking, because i have skills for both roles and having a hard time choosing which one i should pursue. please address the following differences, -role functions -lifestyle, hours -future growth/ stability -salaries and bonuses -anything else
Thanks for all your help.
holy fuck. search function buddy. read both forums, and read mergers and inquisitions.
they are essentially the same.
400,000-500,000 first year comp same hours 9-6 (at worst) same role functions (most just call it ibdst rather than ib or st)
your welcome
I have to agree with this.
Posting in ALL CAPS is really annoying. No advice given.
I'm guessing research isn't one of those skills, because this topic has been beaten to death
hahahahaha
ha
S&T vs IBD - What can one expect if they started in IBD? (Originally Posted: 03/01/2016)
Hi everyone,
while I know that there have been a lot of posts about S&T vs IBD, I want to know what the compensation differences are down the road. More specifically, what can someone who is in top 5-10% expect 5 years down the line in S&T and what can someone who is in the top 5-10% expect if they started in IBD, and then either moved up or went to the buy side (HF/PE). Thanks for all of the advise guys!
Earning potential for both S&T and IBD at the highly senior levels (senior managing director, partners, group heads, etc.) can be deep into 7 figures, even 8.
8 figures? nope
this is like a basketball vs football question. Two totally different skills.
to rephrase the question, who makes more, the average S&T MD or the average IB MD, and yes, I know that S&T has more variability. Also how long would it take roughly to make each S&T MD and IB MD?
Trading MD promotion (and bonus escalation) happens faster. If you are a rockstar trader...you will get promoted every year...and can be an MD within 4-5 years. Traders are paid (and fired) based on P&L. However, rockstars are very rare. IBD is more "stable"...trading like a rockstar is a high risk/ high reward career...more akin to gambling. Most star traders will go to hedge funds after making 100mm at an ibank (banks will pay you at most 8-10% of your P&L..and more like 5% on avg...with the % going down as your P&L goes up...but most hedge funds will pay that same trader 18-20% on the same P&L...so this is an easy move to make). Very low odds of this happening btw.
However, this is a rare ability...
The Sales part of S&T is more stable..more akin to IBD in that respect...takes longer to get promoted, but with less risk of getting fired if you are decent (tho, in purges, very few salespeople are "safe"). Sales is not just product knowledge...you have to be a rockstar at entertaining clients. Shy awkward people do not perform well in that role. Good sales people will make more than weak traders. The best trader will make more than everybody, but will never have stability.
you should also consider population. There are few traders...and more sales people (often 3:1 ratio....10 traders n a desk might have 30 sales people). IBD is more like sales in that regard....there are many more Investment Banking positions available every year.
Most HFs take 20% of profits as fee, so please explain to me how it makes sense that they would pay out 18-20% to a trader?
Also you are not getting paid 8-10% of profits at a bank, very rarely do you have a set % at a bank, and the actual % of pnl is heavily based on how much franchise pnl management think there is, but either way on average my estimate would be MUCH lower than 8-10% realized. That is closer to what you get at HF's, so 20% of profit is taken by fund, half of that goes to the PM responsible.
The average compensation for S&T in the top 5-10% is probably higher than IBD in the same percentiles. The average overall (full distribution) is higher in IBD vs. S&T (and by a much larger margin than most people on this forum realize). It's also ridiculous to assume you'll be top 5-10% in either one. If you want to make a comparison, take a stab at an income based DCF projection with failure rates / job stability in both fields and see what you come up with. If you want some baseline estimations, I can provide you with my estimates but I think you'll find a basic sensitivity analysis to be insightful.
8 figures = 10mm. This is rockstar...and not something you should plan on / expect to happen. You should plan on the lower end / average..and anything better is an actual "bonus"
I know a few guys who have made 10mm...but very few. I know dozens that make 500k
what bank pays traders 10mm? Might need to do a lateral in company and take a little venture to the other side of that good ol Chinese wall.....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bonuses-still-a-painful…
Using the top earners' salaries to make a decision on a career is a bad idea. That's like saying you should just be a rapper since Jay-Z has a 9 figure net worth.
S&T vs IB? (Originally Posted: 12/13/2015)
I have an interesting situation. I currently have a Sales & Trading SA offer from a top BB (think Goldman/Citi/MS/JP) and also offers from two smaller banks (think Oppenheimer/Raymond James/Mizuho) for IB. I know I want to do BB investment banking full time and am curious which of these two routes will position me better for full time recruiting. I appreciate any insight anyone has...
Similar situation
There have been a million threads on this. The answer is always banking
S&T vs. IBD - Recruiting less at schools (Originally Posted: 08/01/2006)
Is S&T or IBD more difficult to get out of college. Is the recruiting just as difficult or is one significantly harder to get. It seems as though S&T recruits at less schools, is this true, or is it just an east coast position that is recruited for due to proximity to NY. For example all top banks recruit at UCLA for IBD, but I don't really recall any S&T positions being offered.
I heard that S&T is harder to get into because there are far less S&T positions and because fewer people are the S&T "type". But i dont have any first hand knowledge.
S&T is definitely harder to get in. For IBD, there is high turnover rate so there is always demand for Bankers.
S&T takes no skills whatsoever.
i dont understand why you fucking waste time on this site posting such complete and utter bullshit all the time. it boggles my mind how fucking stupid you are
compared to bankers who literally input data into a spreadsheet and change the font and layout of power point slides all day?
IBD also takes no skills whatsoever. But S&T is a joke.
i know you are just trolling, but even so, all the guys on our floor who are literal math geniuses would severely beg to differ.
S&T LIKE PLAYING A VIDEOGAME I'M SO GOOD AT LIKE ANGRY DOGS
FARTMAN
Again, IBD. Or go home. They really are totally opposites sides of the game.
Sales : utter crap, basically glorified AT&T sales rep
Trading: dying out from regulations and market making is not same as prop trading.
IBD: sucks, but leads to MEGAFUND LIKE ME U MAD?!?!
This is why you have so much shit on your face.
sales is complete and utter bullshit.
trading is interesting, and for some of it you need to actually be rly smart, issue is your still mainly just screwing clients over and not generating value for anyone(altough when you move to a hedgefund you atleast start making money for your investors)
IBD is pretty bullshitty, you do help to create an efficient market somewhere tough. Work is intellectually insulting, ideally suited for the less intelligent amongst wso.
S&T >>> IBD (Originally Posted: 04/19/2011)
So I made a similar post in the trading forum.
Basically, S&T is way better than IBD for most people.
Basically if you're not going to a megafund, IBD is useless.
That makes me wonder: why those who KNOW they can't get megafund offers even do IBD for?
S&T is way better for you.
Design 1047, also known as Project 1047,8 was a series of plans for a class of Dutch battlecruisers prior to the Second World War. The ships were intended to counter a perceived threat posed by Imperial Japanese aggression to the Dutch colonies in the East Indies. Dutch intelligence believed that the Imperial Japanese Navy would deploy its capital ships (aircraft carriers and battleships) against their counterparts of the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy, leaving heavy and light cruisers, along with seaplane carriers, as the largest ships available for an advance into the East Indies. As such, the 1047s were shaped by the need to be able to fight their way through a fleet composed of these ships and smaller destroyers. It was hoped that this capability would allow the battlecruisers to act as a fleet in being.
After a recommendation from high-ranking Dutch naval officers that the Koninklijke Marine (Royal Netherlands Navy) be bolstered so any attacker would have to "use such a large part of his military potential that there would be an unacceptable weakening of his capabilities in other theaters", the Minister of Defense ordered the Navy to prepare designs for a two or three-member class of battlecruisers. As they had not previously designed a modern capital ship, and the only information available on modern designs came from public literature and editions of Jane's Fighting Ships, the Dutch turned to Germany. This initially bore no results, as the two sides were unable to come to terms. During this time, a preliminary plan was drawn up without foreign assistance; completed on 11 July 1939, it was missing many of the post-First World War advances in warship technology. In particular, the armor protection was totally outmoded.
Germany and the Netherlands were eventually able to reach an agreement where Germany would release plans and drawings based upon their ideas for a battlecruiser, in return for a guarantee that all needed equipment would be ordered from German firms. With their assistance (mainly through NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw), a rough design was formulated by February 1940. A visit to Italy prompted a rethink of the internal layout, which led to a set of drawings dated 19 April 1940. This is the last known design produced prior to Germany's invasion and occupation of the Netherlands. Plans for the ships were never completed.
First of all you're obviously not the "PE recruiter" you made yourself out to be in previous posts, so good job blowing your cover. That said, you must be an underclassman in college so I'll try to provide some guidance.
The list goes on.
Adding to Rickyross...
even if S&T has the same exit ops as IBD (which will never happen) I doubt there would be a meaningful uptick in applications/ analysts. Some people truly do not like trading, while others don't know what exactly a trader does so they never look into it. Basically different strokes for different folks.
I disagree with you ricky, I don't think its very up and out. I know many traders and salespeople who stay in BBs, who has actually heard of someone get fired from a BB? I've never heard of such a story.
grass is always greener...first few years as an S&T analyst you're gonna have to do shit like grab coffee and lunch for all the traders and do admin work in addition to the analytical stuff. yes you get off work earlier but you also wake up at 5am everyday, and that doesn't change as you go up. 5am to 6pm = 13 hour days
But no weekends, right?
also thats not true, i know a trader he doesn't go to work until 7am.
U mad?
Just because ONE trader you know doesn't go into work until 7am doesn't mean that it's typical.
Search threads on here dude. S&T vs. IBD is one of the most frequently discussed topics and has been beaten to death and mutilated in its coffin.
FX guys get on the desk 5:30-6am. Everyone else gets in between 6:30-7:30am (with 6:30 being the time the analysts get in)
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/st-ibd
Proves it.
Summer Analyst: MM IBD or BB S&T? (Originally Posted: 08/30/2011)
My plan was always to go into I-banking, but another opportunity for a summer analyst position came up and it's impossible to ignore. Given that I love finance and would be willing to work in any fast-paced, high-achievement environment, which opportunity would be best? Lazard MM (M&A) at a non-NYC office, or MS S&T on Wall Street?
Thanks for your advice.
Are you talking about summer of 2012 already? How did you get both offers so quick? Thought even acellerated recruiting doesn't start until Sept or Oct?
I am still in college, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd say if you want to do banking, do banking and if you want to do something else in finance, take MS. It's not like Lazard is a bad place to start at all, and you are in the M&A group, which tends to be more coveted than say FIG (not a knock on FIG, just what I've heard from people applying) Hope that makes sense
First I'll say I'd love to have a problem like yours. But in the same breath ill also say, no one knows what YOU want to do. You have to figure it out for yourself, some may say IBD some may say S&T but thats what they would do in your situation. You need to figure out what YOU would do in your current situation. It isn't the end of the world if you do either but you need to think about what you want not what a group of people on a random online message board are telling you.
Good luck, and congratulations in advance.
Morgan Stanley
hands down, no questions.
I agree with blackfinancier. If you are interested in pursuing banking the obviously you would want to take the IBD positions and if you are interested in S&T then you would go with the MS offer. I really don't see the sense of asking this question on this site since these are not even comparable internships.
So put on your big boy pants and kindly decide on your own as to what you see yourself doing in the future as a career.
MS S&T is notorious for having a low offer rate, though.
If you have no clue what you want to do, go with M&A. If you already love following markets, economic releases and news in general, go with S&T.
If you want to do banking, go with Lazard
If I accept one of these in the coming month or so, am I taking action too fast? These opportunities both came about because of personal networking - all the BBs recruit my school during the normal winter season. Would it be smart to see what else is out there, or should I be thankful I have something and choose 1 now?
If they're giving you more time, then interview with other places obviously...
Obviously I wouldn't decide until I have to...but the whole point of accelerated interviewing is for them to tie you up before normal recruiting season
S&T to IB (Originally Posted: 06/16/2007)
I have seen posts on this forum about people going from IB to S&T, but does the opposite ever occur? Has anyone ever heard of someone going from S&T to IB?
I doubt it.
S&T is too fast and IB is too slow for traders...not yo mention the hours
I-Banking vs. S&T Recruitment? (Originally Posted: 10/22/2010)
I was wondering if there is a noticeable difference in the amount of i-banker positions than S&T positions. I know they usually require two different set of skills, but are there more ib analysts taken every year, or are there more traders taken every year?
more bankers
more IB slots but far more applicants as well
If a bank posts IB and S&T positions on your school's career board, is it advisable to apply to both or can that hurt your chances?
during my summer there were far more s&t than ibd..
for those who have said there are more ib positions, is it a large difference or a very marginal difference
it varies by year and bank, bear in mind the number of applicants/position is comparable
At goldman there are more S&T than ibankers in the bad years
S&T > IBD (Originally Posted: 04/19/2011)
Who agrees?
Yeah
Higher variance of pay, but average banker > average trader. Upside is larger in trading but I wouldnt be surprised if EV was in bankings favor
Yep
Depends what you consider fun. Being stuck with a short gamma position when the market breaks is certainly not fun.
Getting lunch everyday may not be ''administrative'' work but it sure is a pain the ass (altho during summer you at least get some sun)
Nor the opposite, paying a ton of decay and the damn market won't move! Aha
derivs, what do u mean by #1. If you are really a derivs trader u should be clearing a lot more.
London S&T hours are about the same as NY, but (I have no proof) I've been told and get the impression that NYC IBD is worse than London, despite the fact that pay does not differ a lot.
Stop comparing apples and oranges. Two different careers. Two different types of people.
New topic...
can get fired any day > if you really really suck
if you want a live glimpse of a hedge fund trading desk, go to the live broadcast on www.hedgefundlive.com. see for yourself if traders are that great. these guys were at large institutions before and after making the big bucks are trying to start up a new idea/company.
IBD v S&T Clarify Myths (Originally Posted: 02/27/2010)
I'm trying to decide between IBD and S&T as potential careers. Having read everything online and experienced both, I find both have appeal in very different ways.
Some questions...
1) I was told that a significant number of the best prop traders and distressed/HY guys were former bankers from lev fin, M&A, restructuring, etc who acquired modeling skills. Is this true? Will going to these desks without banking experience put me at a disadvantage?
2) Is it true that in recessions the S&T guys get cut first, and that S&T is less stable?
3) Are traders born or made?
4) I won't know if I'm a good trader until I get my own book, which won't be for a few years, and by then the IBD door will close. How do I best decide?
No one is born anything, unless you're talking about sports. Work hard, don't fuck up and you'll do fine in life. Get distracted from work, and your're screwed in either profession.
So you're actually not interest in the content of the jobs. Interesting. Do IBD, my friend.
I am interested in the content, but I love following the markets, as well as working with individual companies...
definitely ibd
Your questions make you sound too risk-averse too be a trader.
Go with banking, buddy.
are you a dorky ass quant jock or a tool bag ass kisser?
It seems like you have a trading offer under your belt, but I personally would prefer banking.
I-Banking vs. S&T (Originally Posted: 12/10/2007)
For summer internships, what are the differences between I-Banking and S&T? Responsibility, pay, hours, prestige, etc.?
You actually can't do much since you are not licensed.
SA will spend most of the day shadowing Traders or Sales, listen in on internal calls, watching the markets, knowing when to ask intelligent questions, knowing when to keep their mouth shut, writing internal market summaries, maybe a small project here or there, making copies, getting lunch/coffee for desk.
Although, SA are not doing much work they can learn soo much just by listening, watching and asking really good questions.
SA that get FT offers were able to demonstrate their ability to learn in a crazy environment, ask intelligent questions related to what was going on in the market, knowing the right time to open their mouths, and completing all tasks with perfection/near perfection and efficiency, and demonstrated personality 'fit'
Hours - usually about 12-13 per day Pay - 2007 was $60K pro-rate
what about FT differences in pay, hours, etc?
pay is the same, as to the hours that's been discussed many times. read some of the old threads.
is that really the typical S&T day? I'd figure there would be a lot of trading simulations for the summer analysts are all that... seems like ibd summers get a lot more responsibility
S&T internships can be boring as hell since you are not licensed...The positive is that you will get to enjoy NYC a lot more...
Sitting around watching traders and salesmen do their job..asking questions at the right times...MAYBE helping them with little tasks here and there...perhaps a long-term project....getting their breakfasts and lunches (Yup)
That was basically my experience as a S&T SA at a BB firm. When I was an IBD SA at the same BB, I had a lot more responsibilities, being put on deals, modeling, and etc., but was sometimes too tired to enjoy the city.
S&T people have a good life. Also the pay is as good as IBD. Maybe, if you are a really good trader, you can make much more than an investment banker. I should have gone into S&T instead of investment banking, but it's a bit too late.
Devils Advocate, which one (s&t or IBD) did you do in sophomore year or did you do both in your junior summer (not likely unless its Lehman)?
I did S&T Sophomore Year, and and IBD Junior Year.
you'll do some bullshit ninny project that a senior salesman wants, you'll do a lot of bitch work. FT initally is like that, but then you'll get one breakthrough and then you'll be full fledged and will pass on the bitch work to the next pleb...and so goes the circle of life.
Banking vs. S&T (lets be honest) (Originally Posted: 10/10/2007)
Hey All,
i know it is a classic debate but as I sit here at 1:45am in my cube I wonder if my friends who went into s&t had it right all along. Lets be honest, work half the hours, no bullshit work (comps, formatting, flipping books), exciting atmosphere, etc, and all for the same pay at the analyst level.
am i missing something? id love to hear your opinions.
The grass is always greener.
Don't you see the chip on all the S&T staff when they don't get the same recognition outside the bank? Haven't you heard the 'percentage of firm profit' speech at a bar on Friday night a thousand times? I love that speech. The reply is even worse (we make the news, you trade on it..).
Realistically, they are two completely different jobs with different skill sets. Just because they happen to be housed in the one firm makes it seem like they are in direct competition. I would say there are many other jobs which are more similar, which would attract a similar work force, which would be more appropriate to compare to banking.
yes i have heard this speech hundreds of times. i just feel that they have a much better lifesytle for the amount of pain and suffering they endure.
what have your hours been like? What group are you in?
"Don't you see the chip on all the S&T staff when they don't get the same recognition outside the bank? Haven't you heard the 'percentage of firm profit' speech at a bar on Friday night a thousand times? I love that speech. The reply is even worse (we make the news, you trade on it..)."
No chip here. And the flaw in your argument is that bankers are out at a bar on friday night.
In seriousness, they're different and hopefully you know what you're getting into. I work 11 hours a day....it would take a helluva lot of pay (like maybe 10x) to get me to work 100 hours a week.
If I were to bump this thread...it'd be interesting to hear everybody's take on S&T vs IBD salaries, work, etc. in 2013 haha
I typically work 10 hours a day and occasionally come in on weekends. (1st year in BB IBD)
IBD vs S&T Interviews (Originally Posted: 02/02/2008)
I was wondering how these two types of interviews compare. It seems like ibd interviews involve quite a bit of finance (DCF, FCF, WACC, accounting, etc). Are S&T interviews the same?
Also, I go to a school without a finance program. I have experience in trading and say on my resume that I have some experience with fundamental valuation for a club on campus that acts as a mutual fund. Do I have to know all the stuff from Vault finance?
Ive done a ton of S&T SA interviews and they are pretty much all market based. Especially equities. Do you follow, what stocks, etc etc. I also believe that every single interviewer I had both this year nad last year asked the sales vs trading question. Ive never gotten any banking type finance questions.
Thanks for the info - good to hear.
I definitely agree. Prepare for brainteasers/global markets questions-no Accounting stuff!
I always got brainteasers/market questions. The brainteasers were generally probability related. I never had to pitch a stock, but had to say whether I was long or short certain sectors and why. I got technical questions on the greeks, put call parity, and option valuation techniques. For the greeks it was explaining what delta or gamma was and why its important or how its used. I would know the assumptions of black-scholes and know why they are important. Also I had to explain how to do a binomial valuation. For fixed income interviews I would go over bond math, convexity, yield curve, and bond covenants. Always know the fed rate and LIBOR.
your interviewing must have been a real prick if you asked you about the greeks, unless you brought it up yourself which i wouldn't recommend BC any eq derivative trader will tear you to shreds
What about operations interviews, how are they different from IB?
I had my fair share of what I thought were pricks during interviews. Most of the traders that interviewed me asked lots of technical questions to fuck with me and make me uncomfortable. I had a lot of guys who were fans of the stress interview. I never brought up my knowledge of the greeks or anything. iambateman is entirely right about never bringing up any of your technical knowledge in an interview because they will destroy you. To be fair they like to do the whole stress thing in ib interviews as well but more so in S&T. I had a friend with a BS IBD interview and the first thing the guy said to my friend was "Oh I see you have a 3.75, why does your GPA suck? We only hire kids with 3.9s"
I don't know what you are talking about re: technical knowledge. If you claim to know something, then you should actually know it. If you do, then most of the questions a trader will ask are not going to be all that hard. Most traders use discretion when they interview: you're asked basic to low-complexity technical questions that are directionally more theoretical, because your experience on a trading desk is limited. Considering half the traders on the street have what amounts to an intuition about the theory and limited quantitative knowledge the questions they ask aren't going to be all that hard. ie. what is the Black Scholes equation for calls, puts is a possibility. Derive the Black-Scholes PDE, which is a relatively trivial exercise assuming Ito's Lemma and stock with dS= uSdt+sigmaSdWt, is probably out of the question because the trader would have trouble determining if your answer is correct, themselves. Similarly, if you know what the greeks are and have some intuition about them (ie. have read Hull), you should be fine.
IBD or S&T (Originally Posted: 11/21/2011)
Hey everyone,
I am currently a sophomore and received an offer at a BB for Sales and trading and one or i-banking. I'm still not sure which one I would rather do but I guess I'm leaning more towards trading.
However I was wondering which one would be better for a sophomore internship. Because hopefully I will get the chance to intern at the other one the following summer.
So I guess which would be better to do first and then leave the other one for second. Cause would doing trading before IBD be better, or IBD before trading.
Thanks
If you're doing both then why does it matter which one you do first? just do whatever you like first.
right foot first or left foot first? hmmm...i dunno.
I'm not necessarily doing both, I just wanted to know more of which is a better and makes more sense in terms of steps.
IBD => Trading
or
Trading => IBD
Do you like your mom or your dad more?
Dad
So Trade LOL, easier to get away with more rude masculine behavior (see: Liar's Poker)
then S&T
hahahaha any more scientific approaches to making the decision?
I would say IBD first. S&T hiring tends to be more limited by the number of seats, so it might be tougher to switch from IBD -> S&T after your junior summer.
They are both very different. The question you need to answer is what would you rather do when you finish university, trading or ibd?
Isn't the whole point of the internships to figure out which one (s)he likes best?
Isn't the whole point of the internships to figure out which one (s)he likes best?
S&T in what products? If in derivatives, especially structuring OTC transactions then I would do that. If it's more plain vanilla or even straight equities then pursue IB. It's a tough time to be in IB though. If you're going to do both just make sure you don't do S&T during the slowest summer months when volatility and volume is atrocious.
Also consider your personality and where you would be more comfortable. Would you prefer more of an analyst position or a more engaging role?
You're lucky that you have a choice of either/both... it's a good problem to have. Trading has more upside on the buy-side but you'll learn the products working for a bank. You'd probably gain more skills in IB and it would be the more conservative option. You'd have broader opportunities with IB experience.
The way I see it...you can always get an internship in banking your junior year...the hardest internship to get on the market right now is S&T since literally every firm has a hiring freeze
I would go with S&T because this could be your only shot at trying it.
Why not S&T? (Originally Posted: 06/05/2007)
It just struck me as a question I should have asked myself long ago. Not only are you out of the office much earlier than bankers, you never have to pull an all nighter as well. Keeping pace with market information is much more interesting than droning numbers into Excel. Good traders can earn just as much as good bankers. (Didn't I hear something like bulge revenue is ~75% from trading and ~25% banking fees? Correct me if I'm wrong) The only benefit I see banking have over trading is that it may have better exit opportunities whether you decide to go back to school or maybe join a PE firm. Is there something I'm missing? I sure as hell hope it's not just about prestige and fame.
This has been dealt with many times. Banking has generally better/broader exit ops, and not everyone is interested in s&t. Different people have different interests.
If you're a good sales person, I imagine that the client relationships should set you up for good exit ops as well.
Hey all i hear are the trading conponent of S&T but wat about Sales?? like is financial advisory part of it?? and wat about Sales in terms of pay, hours, traveling, and prestige?? thx ahead of time!!
Jimbo,
what are your thoughts on people trying to move from banking to trading? Have you seen it done? Im in the process of trying to do it now and would appreciate any input you have.
I have seen it done a few times. usually in related fields. So energy bankers to commodity desks that sort of thing.
what are you trying to go from and to?
trying to go from Public Finance Banking to Rates or Credit Derivatives. I have experience with rates in my current role, structuring them into transactions, just not from a hedging/trading perspective.
Ok...you possibly move into marketing to municipalities for instance. talk to the salesmen you work with already and go from there.
yeah thats one thing Ive considered but Id like to move outside of the muni area, that obviously makes things a bit tougher.
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