Someone PLEASE Talk Me Out of Taking the LSAT/Debating Law School

This site is pretty much the suicide hotline for those about to even question whether law school is for them, so here it goes...

I'm a business/accounting undergrad with a solid GPA and gmat scores to get into even the best programs... though my undergrad school is a non-target, I have a Big 4 firm to back my accounting stint as a somewhat credible way to enter the workforce. I also will soon receive my CPA and recently passed the CFA level 1 this june (if any of that stuff matters). Point is: I think it's fairly realistic for me to get into a top 10 (at the very least, top 20) MBA program, enjoy the 2 years, meet a lot of people, and start off as an IB associate at a bank.

For some reason, I'm thinking that a good way to spend my spare 4 months is to prep for the LSAT and cater to the idea of law school that I thought I had crossed off the list long ago. Reasons: I'm starting to think that IB is a risky place to devote 6 digits worth of money to, I keep imagining that I get accepted into H/S/W only to be fired from my associate job after a year because of a market recession. Less dramatically, not reap the benefits of extremely high bonuses and settling for a pretty lame salary compared to those in BigLaw. Law, on the other hand, is extremely stable and has a more reliable hierarchy to climbing the corporate ladder all the way to partner, where you can easily make a few mill a year. Additionally, I can enter law school earlier, and won't have to wait a few more years to go back to school (ultimately getting the "better/higher paying" job sooner). Also, I've always been pretty logical and law has interested me from a young age. I don't think doing well on the LSAT will be too hard for me, as I've done practice tests before and did fairly well on them (I have confidence with the right prep I can score high enough for top programs).

So, talk me out of it.

 

As requested, I'll ignore the fact that you think a Big4 accounting job and solid GPA at a mediocre school and GMAT are sufficient to get you into a top b-school. But let the record show my incredulity.

I will say that law school, probably more so than any other graduate field of study, falls victim to the the "why the fuck not" rationale. Taking a methodical, thoughtful and deliberate approach to life decisions is of the utmost importance. You're no longer a kid and so your decisions will have a very meaningful impact on the range of possible outcomes in your life and the respective probabilities. So taking the "are there any reasons not to" approach to committing 3 years of your life to anything is devastatingly stupid and childish.

 

Obviously very late but I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents for anyone reading through these replies in the future.

I'll start by saying that your thesis that making MD at a bank is a crapshoot and making partner at a law firm is straightforward/easy is very flawed. A big part of why making partner at a law firm is so hard is that pretty much everyone who lands in biglaw has eyes for the partnership whereas in IB the herd is thinned by people leaving, largely for the buy side.

The problem of bimodality of compensation in law exists not only at the entry level but also later on, for most people you either make partner at a big firm and eventually get to 7 figures or you don't and in all likelihood will be stuck with a much lower cap on your compensation by being "of counsel" for your firm or at an in-house legal team in a big company. In banking even if you don't make it to the top you can at least get stuck at VP and clear half a million annually in most cases which is more than you'd get in equivalent law positions. The finance/MBA background also makes you more versatile, there are countless people of that ilk that end up as CFOs or CEOs in large companies but once you've studied law and worked for a long time at a law firm you're pretty much stuck being a lawyer in most cases.

There's just more money to go around in finance so if you're just basing your decision on earning potential (bad idea, do whatever interests you more) you have to assume that you will be able to reach the top in law and would fail to in banking which is not an assumption that holds up to scrutiny imo unless there's something about you specifically that would make that the case. Basically, if you go the law route you are banking on not only making it to biglaw (not an easy feat in itself) but then making partner at a big firm which is inherently unlikely although you seem to be quite confident that you can pull it off.

Lastly, I'd get it out of your head that making partner, MD, or any 7 figure position is a reasonable expectation. That'd be a bit presumptuous coming from a guy at GS out of Harvard let alone an accountant from a non-target.

 
Best Response

Outside of a T14 law school you are spinning your wheels and setting yourself up for a whole lot of hurt. You need about a 3.7 or higher and 170 LSAT or higher, you can get in with lower but 99th percentile is what you are shooting for. Salaries are bi-modal so 10% make 160k base most make an average of 65k base some few fall in between. T14 has exceptionally low unemployment, others have as high as 50% unemployment. Law environment is the worst it has ever been. Coincidentally shit law schools often charge as much as the absolute best schools. Take California, there are two lawyers for every new job opening. Look at the projections of future grads and jobs and it gets ugly.

So go for it, but if you don't land one of the best of the best, run don't walk away. BTW read Justice Scalia's opinion and rationale about law students suing their schools over falsely representing their employment statistics. In short he said that grad students are sophisticated consumers and should therefore have the forethought and diligence to conduct their own research and fact checking.

How the fuck are you supposed to do that? In any event, effectively they've been given a legal license to lie about their hiring prospects, more reason to steer away from shit schools.

 

You will hear a lot of negativity about law school but the reality is, for most people, they are more likely to land in big law than break in to high finance. The issue is the bi-modal income mentioned by ArcherAdvice. Your experience and education in accounting and finance will never be "for naught". It will be relevant to every job you ever have (including and especially law), and there is a smoother gradient of pay. Law school can almost completely backfire and leave you worse off than you are now, where you still have no work experience, are three years older, and are applying to jobs as a "failed lawyer". Even once you break in, you will see a lot of people considering back office at a bank as a good exit op, bringing into question the value of a legal career in the first place.

Go to Big4 accounting for at least a year, then decide if you want to go to law school. I think this experience would be looked at very highly by law firms. You could probably get an analyst position right now at a bank if you hustle a bit.

I am also considering law school, but I have a credible promise from a close family friend (who is a partner in big law) guaranteeing me a job on graduation. If it weren't for that, I would not be considering law. Goldman just boosted pay and that is likely to spread at least to the other IB FO positions, and slowly spill out into finance generally. I've heard of no such thing in law.

BTW you cannot "easily make a few mil a year" as a partner, assuming "a few" means 3-4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_firms_by_profits_per_partner As you can see, only the most elite firms are pushing those kind of numbers.

For me, my biggest concern about law is that people consider finance an above average exit op. I already work in finance, albeit not "high finance". Also the pay is more like a unionized hourly job. As far as I understand, there is no merit pay (the way we would think of that term) whatever. Your performance contributes to a big all or nothing raffle at the end of 6-12 years where you either make partner or don't. Like in finance, the skills for partner are almost completely different than those which would serve you well as an associate.

 

I almost went to law school out of college but my ex girlfriend was a year older and in her first year at law school. Her advice to me was if you don't truly want to be a lawyer and practice law, don't do it. I didn't and am glad as hell I didn't attend.

Being a young lawyer is just as bad as IB, if not worse and more boring because you've put in 3 years of law school, passed the bar then you're just drafting and reviewing documents in such minutiae that I don't know how they don't blow their brains out. And from what I know the boring stuff lasts longer in law than IB (PE, HF, etc).

The field is also flooded so if you don't go to one of those top schools and do well there's a good chance it will be very tough to get a job to pay back those loans. And they'll be large loans that qualify you for one thing: law. You can take an MBA in many directions as a hedge to the downside if IB doesn't work. Yes you can do other things with a law degree but if you're going to take 2-3 years of no income you might as well get a flexible degree if you don't really want to be a lawyer.

I remember when I was younger in my career I became pretty good friends with one of our lawyers, a newly minted partner, and his statement to me was that to some degree he was a commodity: he only had so many hours in a week and only so high he could get his hourly rate. Sure he could bring in business but he would hit a cap. Most lawyers that I work with would love to jump to their client's side and not be lawyers. You can switch but it's more difficult and if that's your goal why not just start off there?

Just my two cents but it goes back to my college girlfriend: if you don't truly want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school.

 

I encourage you to spend about 30 minutes reading the posts on going to law school on abovethelaw.com - the most widely read blog in the industry. That should talk you out of it. Bottom line - the legal industry is permanently effed. yes, people do get big firm jobs but that is a much much much smaller group than it used to be.

The finance comparison is not apt, if we're comparing breaking in post-MBA. At a business school, at the very most maybe 15% of the class wants to break into banking (at my school it was probably ~10%). Screen out the people who dont speak english or are generally socially awkward and you are down to pretty good odds. And no one is too concerned with your grades. In law school, I'd venture to say 90% of the class wants to get the biglaw job. And another 5% probably did until they got their first semester grades and now pretend like they never wanted it. Then they become those people telling themselves the most propagated lie in occupations - "I can do anything with a law degree!" Yes, you can. Including a lot of things that are not going to pay you for that degree - look up the stats on employment in a job that requires a law degree from various schools. abovethelaw addresses this often. People with law degrees have done many things - but that whole correlation / causation thing.

But let's pretend you do this foolish thing and actually become one of the chosen few that enters the soul crushing world of biglaw (the only people who bankers get to boss around). And let's pretend you are well on your way up the legal ladder. What does that look like now? Well, I'm glad you asked. I think every lawyer I know (many at big firms) sent this around while nodding in agreement.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113941/big-law-firms-trouble-when-mo…

If you want a more academic look at the death of big law - this is the treatise http://wisconsinlawreview.org/wp-content/files/1-Ribstein.pdf

The only positive I can think of for applying to law school is that admissions have been hit so hard that you can get into a better school with worse stats than you could ~5-10 years ago.

 

Reading legal documents is by far the most boring thing I occasionally do on the job. Writing those documents all day must be fucking terrible.

"'In summary, people are morons and who cares. Make a shit ton of money. I've never seen a Ferrari paid for by what people think.' - ANT" -rufiolove
 

I'll add this. I'd venture to say you would be more suited to corporate commercial work, which is where many lawyers get pretty good training in 'what not to do' in business because they are there to bail out thier clients. So long term, that could be an interesting and a useful skill set, especially combined with your accounting / finance background. But the way I think about it is that I'd rather hire a lawyer with those attributes than be one myself.

They also meet with some very rich and successful clients. But here is the problem, the lawyer will never become the rich client on the other side unless they leave the industry. The lawyer has billables, meaning you have to account for every single minute of every day or it reflects poorly. So your income is always tied to your hours, whereas many other professions start moving away from that as you gain experience and move up. In 'high finance' your compensation is relative to the 'value' you add and money you bring in. In law, your compensation is still tied to your hours, meaning it's always a grind.

Top lawyers work A LOT but the profession is not geared towards making you rich (if that's what you want). Comfortable yes, rich no. Not to mention law school is expensive and you end up paying it back for years. Talk to almost any lawyer who has more than a few years experience and most of them will tell you that it wasn't worth it. .

 
hulk monkey:

Reasons: I'm starting to think that IB is a risky place to devote 6 digits worth of money to, I keep imagining that I get accepted into H/S/W only to be fired from my associate job after a year because of a market recession. Less dramatically, not reap the benefits of extremely high bonuses and settling for a pretty lame salary compared to those in BigLaw. Law, on the other hand, is extremely stable and has a more reliable hierarchy to climbing the corporate ladder all the way to partner, where you can easily make a few mill a year.

So, talk me out of it.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Haha all these quotes show a complete lack of knowledge about any recent industry trends. Who cares if you get fired from an associate job, you would have had an associate experience + your MBA (not to mention CPA/big4 backround) which would leave you qualified for a sorts of different jobs. Go on the law school forums and read about what happens to law associates who get laid off. Law is even snobbier than finance, being unemployed is far more of a black mark, especially with the cutthroat competition that has taken hold (20k too many new law graduates each year).

Lame salary? Biglaw is 160k + 20/30k bonus, and your salary only increases like 10% a year. By year 7, they tell you whether you're going to make partner (hint, 95% chance you won't), and then you're out and have to work in-house counsel at some corporation for less money. There is no "reliable hierarchy" in the biglaw ladder, at least not with the contracting rates/demand for lawyers. A firm isn't going to make you an equity partner unless you can pull clients, but good luck doing that if you're working 90 hours a week. You're vastly overestimating how easy it is to make equity partner at a big firm these days.

Source: girlfriend who attended top 3 law school + the internet forums like abovethelaw that others have mentioned.

 

Any else thought it was interesting that OP was talking about acceptances to H/S/W with his background?

In all seriousness the legal market is over saturated the same way market is for history teachers except they arent taking out 200k in loans. You can seriously lateral to a CF role doing more interesting work and getting a nice pay bump to make ~80k with you experience right now. Or you can wait 3 years (time you would spend in law school) and move over for low 100-110k in industry working an average of 50h / week. Dont forget the hours for lawyers are also awful and they are not compensated as well as bankers.

 

have you had any law related work experience? I never got to intern in big law but I did 2 law internships in criminal law and lobbying and the work was the worst fucking thing I've ever done. I'm talking 500 page legal briefs that you pour over for hours to give your boss like an email's worth of useful info about. I'm sure it gets better as you move up the ranks but even IB stuff seems fun compared to law.

 

How you expect people to be able to reasonably answer this question makes me wonder how you will get into a top 5 law school. Or what that says about the law school I guess

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
 

i suggest you do some reading about the current state of the legal market (abovethelaw.com is a good start) before you take this on.

Everyone assumes they are going to get the big law job but that is just statistically not the case (ever) and certainly not lately. Despite the media's laments, finance recruiting is pretty robust but the attorney recruiting model is broken with no fix in sight. This is not like a "this is a bad year" thing. This is a "has been a bad 4 years and may not come back" thing. Lockstep promotions are under fire as is the billable hour model. All leads to less need to hire.

Check wsj from this week.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527023044586045774866234699581…

That article could have been printed any day since 2008. Schools are only now starting to bend to pressure to stop skewing their stats by hiring their own students.

 

from what my law school buddies told me, preparing a brief and writing legal analysis does not leave a lot of room for creative or "good" essay writing. you just need to follow a set format.

as someone who thought about going to law school and took the LSAT several years back, i can understand your motivation. the massive amount of people who ended up being unhappy and hating their jobs, plus the fact over half of Harvard Law School graduates (the nearest big law school) end up not doing anything related to law after graduation, convinced me that law isn't for me. it's great analytical training but you can get that in different graduate programs. YMMV

 

I work at one of the top litigation boutiques. Everyone went to HYS for law school and it's a complete sweat shop--90 hrs/week are normal--and the partners treat associates like toilet paper.

Not that different from entry-level banking actually, except the associates are 30 and spent 3 years/$200k in school to get this job.

And the skills are not transferable. At all.

I don't know, it's your call, but it's not for me.

 
nerdspeak:
I work at one of the top litigation boutiques. Everyone went to HYS for law school and it's a complete sweat shop--90 hrs/week are normal--and the partners treat associates like toilet paper.

Not that different from entry-level banking actually, except the associates are 30 and spent 3 years/$200k in school to get this job.

And the skills are not transferable. At all.

I don't know, it's your call, but it's not for me.

Could you give a ballpark of what associates make at such litigation boutiques?

 

50% of law school grads get a job as a lawyer after 9 months and yes, corporate law is very boring...I'd skip it. If you're a good writer, write a book or be a reporter or something. I work in law firm services and we have law school grads applying to be in sales...so there ya go.

yellow t-shirt
 
LancelotLink:
If you're a good writer...be a reporter or something.
Oh yea, shit tons of opportunities there right now. Newspapers all over the place looking for writers.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

If you can get into a Top 5 law school (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago or Columbia) and think you can be in the top third I would highly consider law school over the IB route. Low-level/mid-level partners at top law firms earn $1,000,000 aka equivalent to Director/low level MD.

Law School Route: 22 (college) -> 25 (law school) -> 8-10 years as associate -> 33 or 35

iBanking Route: 22 (grad college) -> 24 (analyst stint) -> 26 MBA -> 31 Associate/Vice President -> 33-35 Director/MD

Essentially, the pay is rather close, minus the outliers (all star analysts (IB) or all start associates (law) and of course the forgone salary for staying an extra year in school.

Robert Clayton Dean: What is happening? Brill: I blew up the building. Robert Clayton Dean: Why? Brill: Because you made a phone call.
 
crazi4ib:
So I did some research and realized that a lot of people (particularly on WSO) say that corporate BigLaw is very dull and exhausting with much lower pay than Ibanking, and that many people in BigLaw end up regretting their choice and wishing they had done Ibanking instead.

The thing is, I think that my skill set is ultimately better suited for law than for banking. I am mediocre at accounting and have never been good at math/statistics, but I am very good at writing essays. Also, I'm at a non-target (top 25) so chances of landing a BB front office position upon graduation are slim even with networking. On the other hand, if I score high enough on the LSAT, I can get into a top 5 law school and make more than I probably would upon graduation from my current UG.

So based on my situation, would you say that going for a top law school (assuming I get in) may actually be a sensible and good option for me?

Thanks!

top law school to IB, with maybe some biglaw in between is viable. however, anyone who can do (grades, personality) this can get a finance job right out of college, the guys I know that went this route either made a bad decision to go to law school (family pressure from several generations of HLS) or got private endowed scholarships that made it attractive since they wanted to go.
 

Another person wanting to go to law school! I mean, find something better to do. Forget about money. Law school really sucks and the law sucks in general. I don't know a happy lawyer. Partners are generally assholes. You will not like spending some of your best years in a law library reading and briefing cases. If you can get into a top 10 school, it's easy to get a job. But you will hate the job.

Try pure finance that is not tied heavily to accounting, i.e. an MSF dealing with trading.

 

What is your current situation? You say you aren't particularly good with math and accounting, but relative to whom? From what I have seen, those who have strong/moderately strong quantitative skills are almost always able to communicate effectively and feel very comfortable digesting information in the form of the written word. Conversely, it is all too common to hear law school types proclaim their love of novels and inability to grasp even moderately challenging maths. What I mean to say is that I think you need to put yourself in a position where your quantitative skills will be appreciated (if you have some and are just comparing yourself to very very talented people) and, as others have said, where you will not be one of many paper pushes and briefs writers. The market for recent law school grads is pretty bad from what I've heard. So try and figure out a way to combine your these things... tax lawyer?

 

DON'T FUCKING GO TO LAW SCHOOL!

I just graduated and am studying for the bar right now. If I could do it over I wouldn't have gone. I thought it was what I wanted to do, but I didn't really think it through, which I think is a mistake you are making as well. In a nutshell the day to day practice of law is extremely boring and the job prospects are not as good as they used to be.

If finance is what really interests you (and in my opinion Finance and following the market are vastly more interesting than the day to day practice of law) then keep aiming for that and don't switch gears because you aren't good at math. Because the thing is: to get into a top 5 law school you'd need an LSAT of at least a 170 to have any real chance. And if you are capable of scoring a 170 then you are capable of mastering the math/accounting required for a career in finance. If you can achieve your plan B then you already have the ability to achieve your plan A.

And like some of the other posters said go check out Abovethelaw.com. Not because you will learn much about law school and the law, but after reading the comments there you will realize how much everyone in that industry hates life.

"Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Capitalize on what comes."
 

Many thanks for all the replies.

Please help me understand how exactly is corporate law so much more boring than ibanking, when ibanking also involves sitting at your desk for ~10 hours a day?

TEX:
And if you are capable of scoring a 170 then you are capable of mastering the math/accounting required for a career in finance. If you can achieve your plan B then you already have the ability to achieve your plan A.

That is a good point. But wouldn't I still always be at a disadvantage because I am naturally more suited for analyzing words rather than numbers?

 

Secondly, law is essentially a trade. DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. There are more than enough people with JD's. They don't need you. I repeat. They don't need you. Working for a law firm sucks. Partners are mean. Have you ever been screamed at so loud that the whole half of the floor hears you? Also, law has zero transferable skillsets. If you don't like it, and you likely will NOT, you will not easily get a job somewhere else in a different field. The only reason people entertain my resume is because I have a prior BBA in Finance and a prior background in Finance.

Law school will be hell. I have NEVER met a happy lawyer. NOT ever!

NO ONE should go to law school. Happiness can be found in Finance. Go to an MSF program.

 

I don't know op, law is definitely more "prestigious" to the layman as opposed to finance but a lot of the pre law types that I know personally either come from really rich, waspy families who are going for JD's in order to go into politics or there's also the really hard working over achieving types who would also like to run for office (state congressman, state senator, etc. US congress hopefuls generally come from the first category) I don't know ANYONE who actually wants to get a JD in order to become a lawyer and stay in it for their lives. JD/MBA is good if you want to become general counsel of a tech company or something

 

I am doing it to support my interest in business. I love it, but after seeing how messy litigation is, I don't think I want to spend my life cleaning up business's messes.

You can take classes which will support your current financal background, like corporate finance Law, Tax, Super, Corporate law etc. I found all these classes really interesting. At a good uni, there's also the option to do things like Mining law which I imagine would be great for getting on the payroll of some big petroleum company.

If you can afford the lifestyle change of being a poor student again, go for it.

 
Aimez:
I am doing it to support my interest in business. I love it, but after seeing how messy litigation is, I don't think I want to spend my life cleaning up business's messes.

You can take classes which will support your current financal background, like corporate finance Law, Tax, Super, Corporate law etc. I found all these classes really interesting. At a good uni, there's also the option to do things like Mining law which I imagine would be great for getting on the payroll of some big petroleum company.

If you can afford the lifestyle change of being a poor student again, go for it.

On that note, if I was to apply, I'd be hoping for some form of scholarship. I have a 174 LSAT but a 3.5 GPA, would I be eligible for any money/and at which schools? I understand HYS are pretty much out given my GPA.

I've got about 100K in the bank but don't really want to just chew through it all going to school.

 

I was accepted into law school in UG and until I got my IB offer, had planned on going. After I realized I was done with banking, I thought long and hard about law school but ultimately decided it was too high of an opportunity and financial cost (I'm also 27 and 5 years removed from UG), and too big of a risk. With my background, and had I done well, I'm sure I could have landed at a big firm doing corporate law, but I had less than zero interest in that (I was talking about my decision with a senior associate at a firm I worked with regularly and was basically assured that I would get a summer position there if I wanted).having done banking and having worked extensively with corporate lawyers

I sat down to try to think about what other kind of law would I REALLY like to practice and came up with only two: Criminal (DA side) and Labor (Management side). Assistant DA pay is terrible, and you may have to take a job somewhere completely dull and I had absolutely no idea what the likelihood I would end up at a management-side labor firm was so I decided against it.

I think if you knew which area of law you specifically wanted (and it has solid job prospects) or you are willing to go onto corporate law (which I have NO idea why any banker would), then it's worth a thought. Otherwise, with the state of the job market for lawyers, and the very high real cost and opportunity cost of law school, it's really not worth it.

 

I entered college thinking that's where I would be headed but after taking a few undergrad law classes and talking to lawyers I realized that they're all slaves to bankers. Switched my focus to banking. Unfortunately I found this out too late to study finance.

 

ha ha, yeah

I work in Asia, and out here, unless you're working for one of the offshore firms in SG or HK (or Beijing or Shanghai now as well), there is no way you make that kind of dime before getting about 3-4 years PQE, or senior associate level, if you can get there before 3-4 years. Its true what they say, hours are the same or worse as banking, and you are, no matter how you argue it, the bankers bitch (until you get to partner, then at least the bankers asks whether you like it while they're crammin the dildos up your poor swollen arse)

"God takes care of old folks and fools, while the Devil takes care of makin all the rules", P.E. 1998
 

my opinion here is definitely not the norm, but i happen to think that getting a JD is extremely valuable even if you never practice law. so much of banking and even business in general revolves around law (i.e. contracts) that having the knowledge gained from getting a law degree gives you significant advantages over others. one of my biggest regrets is not pursuing the JD/MBA when i went to b-school. i'd love to go back now and get a JD but i may be a little too old.

Author of www.IBankingFAQ.com
 

Lawyers (and the same can be said of bankers) are instruments that are used to facilitate business transactions. I certainly don't want to diminish their value as they are a necesities of business but I for one would never want to be a lawyer unless I was involved in litigation.

Have any of you ever spoken to a lawyer who is happy? Absolutely not! I have never spoken to a lawyer, whether it be in a business setting or an informal family environment, that has reacted positively when asked whether or not I should consider a JD. I think a JD can be a valuable asset from a personal growth perspective but the financial opportunity cost and likelihood of career enjoyment seems to be low.

 

I can never understand why anyone would prefer being a corporate lawyer over an investment banker, assuming that guy has the aptitude to do either job. A corporate lawyer earns less, works the same hours, gets less respect than the banker, is a slave to the banker, and has less say on the deal. So what's the deal here?

More job stability? perhaps, but BigLaw is probably only a little less trigger happy than the bulge brackets.

 

I considered law school early on but I see no point now in terms of time and money invested versus earning potential. Lawyers and bankers are seen basically in the same light in terms of career success and also the negative social stigma and baggage that comes with both vocations. I would only goto law school if I planned on being a lawyer and that track no longer appeals to me. At this point, even getting an MBA might be a stretch (im in S&T).

 

I considered law school early on but I see no point now in terms of time and money invested versus earning potential. Lawyers and bankers are seen basically in the same light in terms of career success and also the negative social stigma and baggage that comes with both vocations. I would only goto law school if I planned on being a lawyer and that track no longer appeals to me. At this point, even getting an MBA might be a stretch (im in S&T).

 

i would never choose corporate law over banking and yes, life as an associate at a big lawfirm sucks and yes, there are plenty of associates in law who want to make the switch into banking (and few that want to go the other way) but...there are some advantages to law.

it does offer significantly more job stability than banking with significantly less volatility of earnings. comp for associates (law), has increased over the past couple of years. there's still a big gap between law and banking but that gap is narrowing a bit (bonuses this year will be up for law, down for banking). and while it is true that many bankers treat lawyers on deals with disrespect, respect within the firm is greater for lawyers than for bankers. that is to say, a typical partner will treat a legal associate with more respect than an MD will treat a banking associate. given that most of a lawyer's or banker's worklife is spent with the likekind (not dealing with each other on deals) this counts for something. i also think you can a lot more responsibility as a junior attorney than as a junior banker. as a 2nd or 3rd year associate at a lawfirm, you're already negotiating contract points and advising your client. it takes much longer in banking. finally, law is more intellectual than banking - if that appeals to you.

okay, i'm done defending lawyers now.

Author of www.IBankingFAQ.com
 

I am....I would absolutely choose corporate law over IB. Corporate law associates are paid adequately well, and they enjoy some security in exchange for NOT earning absurd amounts of money. And law firms are smaller, flatter organizations, and it's more likely for a legal associate to get interaction with partners than an IB is likely to get interaction with a managing director.

I was orginally going to go for law, but then switched to banking, then investment management (private equity), then back to banking, then consulting, then back to IM (venture capital), then back to IB, then briefly consulting then back to IM (hedge funds), then briefly back to banking, and now I'm pretty committed on going to corporate law. I'm glad I got my indecisive phase out of the way in high school; now that I'm in college I can hit the ground running.

I'm really interested in the law, and the ideal time to go to law school is probably in your early 20's, but there's no particular ideal time to get an MBA. If I really want an MBA afterwards, I'll get an EMBA while I'm practicing. Every school has an EMBA program. There are no part time law schools to speak of.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 
niles:
you guys are making a big mistake.

every corp lawyer wants to be a banker at heart...

LOL...probably what my mom would tell me...."you're making a big mistake, people who got into yale law sometimes don't get these biglaw jobs." My rebuttal: "people who go to NY law (NOT NYU) sometimes get these jobs, so what's your point? There are anomalies in any group. There are HLS grads that will fail at life and there are 4th tier law school grads that end up becoming Johnny Cochran." "We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

I will offer a story from a friend who just made the switch from corporate law to investment banking . . .

He and one of the firm's partners were in a board room going over the final documents in an M&A deal. At the other end of the table the chairman/CEO and a banker were kicking back and shooting the breeze. My friend and the partner were discussing some of the language in the agreement when the chairman/CEO interrupted them from the other end of the table and snapped "hey, can you guys keep it down over there!"

. . . time to leave and become a banker

 

Lol I haven't watched boston legal in a month because of the stupid screewriters' strike.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

Those screenwriters are on strike because they aren't getting enough money on DVD and internet sales, if any. They get screwed. HAH! So glad I didn't go down that path.

My ex's bro went to Harvard undergrad and Yale law. He works in fucking Montana now for some circuit judge.

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********
 

The hours are not anywhere near as bad as IBD, if the numbers here for IBD are to be believed.

-------- Right now this is a job. If I advance any higher in this company, then this would be my career. And um... Well, if this were my career, I'd have to throw myself in front of a train.
 

Honestly, I seriously think people go into law b/c of shit like Boston Legal, A few good men and all that shit. People love to argue and use their mind and see that shit and think, man, I wish I was a lawyer, and then they get fucked with the paperwork and all that shit, and cry themselves to sleep. Fuck lawyers - total douchebags who work as hard as us but for fuck all money. Ninnies.

 
ratul:
Honestly, I seriously think people go into law b/c of shit like Boston Legal, A few good men and all that shit. People love to argue and use their mind and see that shit and think, man, I wish I was a lawyer, and then they get fucked with the paperwork and all that shit, and cry themselves to sleep. Fuck lawyers - total douchebags who work as hard as us but for fuck all money. Ninnies.

Make a few changes and it's a tirade on investment bankers.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 
ratul:
Honestly, I seriously think people go into law b/c of shit like Boston Legal, A few good men and all that shit. People love to argue and use their mind and see that shit and think, man, I wish I was a lawyer, and then they get fucked with the paperwork and all that shit, and cry themselves to sleep. Fuck lawyers - total douchebags who work as hard as us but for fuck all money. Ninnies.

You come across as a little rat.... or the nerd back in school who tried really hard to be cool with the popular guys. Pretty funny actually.

Get a life, don't be so judgemental and assumptuous.

Later RAT-tool.

 

Law school can be interesting at times. Unfortunately, you have no idea what the law is about until you start stuyding it, and by then you may or may not have come to grips with the idea of being an ambulance chaser..*cough*..lawyer.

 

Not every lawyer is an ambulance chaser, just like not every investment banker is an insider trading douchebag.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

To clear up some of the myths in this thread:

1. Lawyers work a lot less than bankers. Typical workweek is 50-60 hours. Bankers are doing a lot more than that.

2. Lawyers do make less than bankers. Starting salary for a 1st year biglaw associate in NYC is 160k+35k bonus, total comp goes up by about 20-40k every year and maxes out around 350-400k until/if you make partner. However, this salary is only available to something like 10-15% of each year's graduating class. Biglaw firms have 'target' law schools (top 10, 14, etc.) the same way that BBs have target UGs. The bimodal distribution of law school graduates is ridiculous - one huge spike at 60k/year and one big spike at 150k+. Of course, when most people think corporate lawyers they are talking about biglaw.

3. Lawyers have a LOT better job security than bankers. Layoffs are a big deal and a recent 35 associate layoff at a sevearl hundred person firm made legal headlines everywhere. Of course, it's kind of like consulting in the sense that the moer senior you get, the more likely you are to be informally forced out if you're not partner material.

4. Corporate lawyers in NYC are definitely less important in the big deals than bankers. (Litigators, of course, do their own thing). However, this doesn't hold as much outside of NYC where bankers aren't the big swinging dicks, relationships tend to be a lot more even.

5. The work as a junior corproate associate absolutely sucks, just like the work of junior banker associates. That said, I think law associates do get more responsibility early on - lawyers are calling, negotiating, advising etc. pretty early on into their careers. I don't think bankers do the same. Of course, in the long run most of a corporate lawyer's work doesn't mean much - you're there to make sure the deal passes muster and to document it, not to actually make the deal. This can get pretty boring.

6. The cost of a legal education is about $150k (tuitiion + living), but of course you have to calculate the opporunity cost of 3 years of not working. You can make 30k/year over your first two summers to offset this somewhat.

 

I agree...he is a welcome distraction from firing people all day. I would reco that you do not attend law school unless you know what you are getting yourself into. Law school has become the default option for people who have no fing idea what to do with their lives. 3 years and massive debt later they realize that life as an associate is miserable and most law is boring.

 

By now most laidoff bankers would probably be applying to law school as well so I seriously doubt your chances unless your creds are stellar and you ace the lsat. I wouldn't do law unless i am prepared to be more in debt and seriously know what I'm getting myself into

 

Why law school? If you are an international trying to break into IB/Consulting, why not Business School? Wouldn't you learn more and connect better with the industry that way? It's 10x difficult to get into a top law school than to get into a top b-school as an international. My 2 cents as an international b-school student.

 

Law school is too hard, too long and too expensive for you to tackle simply for posturing / positioning. People go to law school to study and practice law - if that isn't your general life direction / professional goal, don't go to law school. And banking recruiting does not exist at law school. If you want to break into investment banking, it will be nearly impossible (unless you can pursue a joint JD/MBA program) as it will require 100% networking. Bankers with JD backgrounds are few to begin with and most of them worked in M&A law at places like Cravath, before transferring to various banks.

I think pursuing law is great and admirable - but sounds like your motivation / reasons / end goals don't align with that of most law school hopefuls. Beside, law school is extremely hard to get into. Most of my friends at top 10 law schools have been preparing for years, whether it was taking easy courses in undergrad or spending entire (and multiple) summers studying for the LSAT.

 

Please don't listen to most people on this site. DO NOT go to law school to do finance. In this market it is an incredibly tough switch to make. I only know of one friend from my graduating class at a top 3 law school that ended up in finance (and thats coming out of a Cravath/S&C/DPW tier firm). That type of lateral move is just not happening in this market unless you have prior finance experience. Things change though. If the market heats up again you'd maybe have a shot.

 

Breaking In to Banking straight out of undergrad Is iffy for me, especially 2 years worth of LOW GPA scores in a non-quantitative degree.

Graduate programs stress quantitative degrees.

I figure CONSULTING is something I could get into with a Law degree, and Law school is possible with my current degree.

I figure I could double it up with Ecos or something.

I'm just trying to find a good path into Banking. SLITHER MY WAY IN.

 
Bull-Market:
Breaking In to Banking straight out of undergrad Is iffy for me, especially 2 years worth of LOW GPA scores in a non-quantitative degree.

Graduate programs stress quantitative degrees.

I figure CONSULTING is something I could get into with a Law degree, and Law school is possible with my current degree.

I figure I could double it up with Ecos or something.

I'm just trying to find a good path into Banking. SLITHER MY WAY IN.

Why do you want to work in banking anyway? You might end up spending a lot of your chasing a goal that might never materialize. I'm skeptical if going to law school will somehow "guarantee" a job in consulting let alone a business school good enough to work in Banking.

Have you tried networking at botique or MM firms?

 
Bull-Market:
Breaking In to Banking straight out of undergrad Is iffy for me, especially 2 years worth of LOW GPA scores in a non-quantitative degree.

Graduate programs stress quantitative degrees.

I figure CONSULTING is something I could get into with a Law degree, and Law school is possible with my current degree.

I figure I could double it up with Ecos or something.

I'm just trying to find a good path into Banking. SLITHER MY WAY IN.

So you got Low GPA scores in non-quant majors, I'll assume something along the lines of Poli-Sci or History, and you want to go to law school, presumably a very good one, to make up for such scores. Then, assuming you buck your previous trend of low scores in things qualatative in nature your going to have a good GPA and a law degree and try and sell yourself to banking? That's the gist of it? All to prove to your father that you are capable of eventually working under him?

You are either assuming you are going to score a retardedly high LSAT score or your going to get into a random law school and hope that is enough to propel you into a decent job. Why exactly are you running away from quant if that is going to be your job. Doesn't make any sense to me. Go work for your dad and prove that you'll do anything. Done.

 

Banking is perfect. Perfect Job. Where else will I gain exposure to Big Business and be able to demonstrate the ability to work Under pressure "almost" CONSTANTLY In a short space of time? Other than @ an Investment Bank?

I don't want the money, There's No real Money in Banking. The Money is In OWNERSHIP.

I want to go work for my old man in future. Where else will I get to prove my Chops to him other than a short stint @ an IBD?

 

My old man is a work Horse. People have quit working for him because of this.

But been exposed to new opportunities and start ups after.

I want to prove I can cope working under him and have the ability to work @ that level.

There is NOTHING that could prove that more than a successful tenure at a Bulge Bracket.

 
Bull-Market:
My old man is a work Horse. People have quit working for him because of this.

But been exposed to new opportunities and start ups after.

I want to prove I can cope working under him and have the ability to work @ that level.

There is NOTHING that could prove that more than a successful tenure at a Bulge Bracket.

Well, I bet actually working under him at that level may prove it more than a BB.

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
 

Not sure if you are serious or not, but there are so many hurdles you have to overcome.

-Getting admitted to a prestigious law school with low grades is difficult. -Getting recruited at a consulting firm after law school is difficult. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, MBB does not recruit (heavily) at law schools. -Assuming you have no undergrad loans, law school AND b-school will get you a substantial amount of loans. If you have any outstanding debt from undergrad and law school, I doubt a lot of banks will provide you with another 200K for b-school. -Abstract undergrad + law school + consulting looks like a lack of focus if you want to go into banking afterwards. -MBA students go into banking to stay in it, not for a 2 year stint.

Anybody feels like expanding this list ...?

 

wtf is up with this guy and CAPITAL letters? i DON'T get it.

by the way, you admitted that you have a low GPA, but you claim that you can work like a dog under pressure? hmmm...... doesn't sound RIGHT to me.

LOL for good measure

 

Just try to get the bets job you can and apply to business school after a few years. Kill your GMAT.

Not sure why you would ever add 5 years to reach your goal by doing law school and consulting. Pretty lame troll.

 

What's is the point? Seriously, for most people, law school is a complete waste in one way or another. To use it to try and get into a completely different industry is retarded. Go get an MSF/MMS/etc (UVA's MS Commerce might be a good fit, they only take non-business majors). You'll probably save like $100k, not to mention the opportunity cost. IBD recruiters will look at the degree better than a JD from most of the top law schools. Which you won't get into anyways because your grades are shit and that's practically all they look at.

 

of all things, this dude claims that he wants to break into banking to do his dad proud.

sounds like a bad movie, his dad with tears down his cheek after seeing his son do him proud by getting into a BB. damn, thats touching. someone get that shit made!

 

Name ONE field Of work other than IB (where entry is possible for Damn near All majors and degrees)That can put you in a position where you are constantly Under pressure to deliver and gaining exposure to big business in a very short space of time????

You crack it in IBD for 3 to 5 years, there's no denying You are BATTLE TESTED. Built to Last. A Pitbull, with the mental and physical capacity to cope with a high pressure business environment.

Working in a F500 company= Go home @ 5 everyday, wait for 15 years before they let you into the Big Leagues. By the time you have any sort of involvement or say In Big M&A deals involving your company your Old and balding.

Fuck that.

 

i like how you speak big things as though you're gonna work 24/7 and be a slave in IBD but you can't even get a decent GPA for undergrad?

give me a break, BRO.

 

No offense, but I think a psychiatrist will help you out more than a good career. Your need to please your father is unhealthy.

You don't need to have a career in IBD in order to 'show' the outside world you can work a lot under pressure. I work in Biglaw and even though the hours are a bit shorter than in IB, nobody will deny you are able to work long hours. I think the same goes for prestigious jobs in the medical world.

 

You remind me of that kid with the legendary cover letter. Equally amazing. Just FYI law school is by no means quant, although you will understand what pressure really means by studying towards a JD.

 

Please don't go to law school... I made that mistake. Dropped out after 1l, worked a bit and now in business school.

DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE A LAWYER.

It is not worth 3 years of torture and tuition.

 
vegankid:
Please don't go to law school... I made that mistake. Dropped out after 1l, worked a bit and now in business school.

DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE A LAWYER.

It is not worth 3 years of torture and tuition.

Yeah This is probably legit. Don't know why I can't just settle on something.
 
vegankid:
Please don't go to law school... I made that mistake. Dropped out after 1l, worked a bit and now in business school.

DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE A LAWYER.

It is not worth 3 years of torture and tuition.

Yeah This is probably legit. Don't know why I can't just settle on something.
 

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Frank Sinatra - "Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy."
 

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