Worst sweatshops?
Just wondering, which firms are known to have the worst hours on Wall Street? Which ones have the worst culture?
From reading old threads, it seems like GS TMT, MS M&A, Moelis, and Lazard are all pretty bad.
Can I get a sense of realistic hours in these groups? 18 hours M-F? 12 hour weekends?
Reason I'm asking is that the group I am joining is said to be pretty hardcore in terms of culture and hours. How do you cope?
hlhz and laz will tear you a new one
You'd be surprised how quickly days start going when you're working consistent 80+ hour weeks. No one is consistently pulling 18 hour days M-F week-after-week, even at the sweatshops (though, don't get me wrong, the hours are pretty brutal). You just have to make sure you savor what rest you can get and stay active during work. Catch up on sleep on the weekends. This is what you're signing up for.
JPM TMT is pretty rough. Especially the telecom group.
Seems like most TMT and Healthcare groups are sweatshops.
Also interested. What makes these certain group such sweatshops? Why TMT and healthcare and M&A?
Terrible hours, face-time required, unfriendly working environments, and cultures where Associates / VPs regularly step on Analysts to subvert blame. TMT is a broad vertical with lots of deal activity, which keeps people very busy. M&A because the deal process in M&A transactions is by far the most work-intensive and deadline-driven, plus the personalities that are attracted to M&A groups are very Type-A. Healthcare because the industry is esoteric, so their deals tend to be more heavily reliant on the coverage group.
These are very broad generalizations, and I would shy away from relying too heavily on them. The truth is that different groups develop different cultures due very much to the semi-random selection of individuals in the group. After a while, toxic cultures become self-perpetuating. For instance, most BB energy groups are reputed to have horrible hours, but I know of one group at a BB in Houston that consistently works 65-80 hours a week (pretty reasonable) at the junior level. Good luck trying to discern what leads to these outliers.
Can anybody here who has actually worked in one of these brutal groups elaborate? As somebody who skipped banking and has never worked a 100 hour week I have a sort of morbid curiosity.
Ridiculous. It really is hilarious how off some of the reputations of these shops are.
In the back on my mind I like to think that some enterprising Laz HR rep created the infamous Lazard sweatshop fable to steer away the faint of heart and reward the candidates who expect hell but apply anyway.
At the end of the day it's not even group specific, it's boils down to whether or not certain individuals in certain groups are easy to work with or have absolutely no regard for your time. Because banks are always in dynamic equilibrium, the person that made X group at Y bank have a reputation for being a sweatshop could now by at C group in D bank despite D having a reputation for being a lifestyle shop.
You read my mind. I kind of expected to hear some reference to a certain LA office that changed hands from Drexel to DLJ to UBS as one of those "Sweatshops". But your right, it really is a myth and more of a combination of who you work with and the personalities where you work with a dash of the amount of deal flow your group sees thrown in for good measure. Self perpetuating myths and bias are bad for moral but good for business... just sayin is all...
Sweatshop list (Originally Posted: 09/21/2006)
I'm interested in compiling a list of the tier 1/1a/2 shops that are total sweatshops (i.e. work you like a banker). I'm interested to see if any of these actually offers a liveable environment.
Please only post data if you have 1st hand knowledge from someone actually working there...
Confirmed: Baincap KKR Bstone Carlyle
Confirmed Not: a few Euro-funds - Cinven, Apax, BC partners
Need: Tommy Lee Warburg Pincus TPG Permira CVC Apollo Providence Equity Silverlake Madison Dearborn Golden Gate Audax Oaktree Clayton Dubilier Rice Matlin Patterson Francisco Partners Hicks Muse Hellman&Friedman Candover
all the confirmed ones are the shit. why work for a firm that will not work you. there is a relationship between what they pay and how hard they work their guys
Completely disagree. You can work someplace which makes a lot of money and pays competitively but doesn't f your plans every weekend and make you skip weddings, etc.
$$$ is not perfectly correlated with eather stress levels or work hours. I assure you of that.
I ask just for the hours. I don't want to work banker hours. The 4 mentioned SS are top firms, and pay accordingly, but I still won't work for them...
I think the idea of working hard and doing banking related work goes hand in hand. One would argue (e.g. employers) why would you be a suitable candidate for PE or IB or Hedge Fund if you're not looking forward to the long hours and the challenges. The passion for banking should be there and as for work life balance???... ummm like Gordan Gekko said.. its for whimps.
If you do other line of work, they will offer you better balance, eg consulting
PE is not banking work. Its goal is not to please a client and produce paper. You have to make some decisions involving big money, and 99% of the value add is in understanding the company/industry / making sound business judgments. How you can do these when short on rest and under heavy stress is beyond me. Besides, you do a deal a year or less, and look at maybe 5-8 others seriously. The focus is obviously on quality not quantity. I think that at these big firms the problem becomes that they also have too many levels, and at the lower end you are but a monkey with no intellectual input, and this is why they can work you so hard. Another reason not to join them.
"PE is not banking work. Its goal is not to please a client and produce paper. You have to make some decisions involving big money, and 99% of the value add is in understanding the company/industry / making sound business judgments." -Jajaja
I am curious as for at what level does one get to assume the type of responsibilty you mentioned above.
I was also wondering about exactly what analysts do at PE's. Do you know about the same type of things as analysts do in banking? I am also interested in the team size/structure at PE's.
Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.
Oaktree's associates get a good experience in and out of the office. They play an active role and are not stuck pushing through models constantly.
Madison Dearborn's fund isn't doing so hot and apparently that atmosphere can be felt at the associate level.
i can confirm that TPG, Silverlake, WP have "sweat-shop" hours and MDP is bad, but not as bad as the other confirmed ones.
Golden Gate Capital does not have "sweat-shop" hours.
Most of the kids in the shop are ex-Bainies.
How bad is "Bad"?
sweatshop is equal to banking hours (85+) bad=75+
"Besides, you do a deal a year or less, and look at maybe 5-8 others seriously. The focus is obviously on quality not quantity. "
and then....
"I think that at these big firms the problem becomes that they also have too many levels, and at the lower end you are but a monkey with no intellectual input"
ummmmm.......explain yourself?
what explain myself???
Definitely an easier shop than the others mentioned. However does not pay as well as the others listed under the sweatshop category.
I can confirm that Bain Cap is a soul destroying sweatshop.
One of Apollo's MD's called our group at 1am. He was still in the office. That should answer that.
Leonard Green is an awesome shop.. decent hours, Santa Monica office, excellent pay + if you make VP you get a Porsche.
Also do very interesting work. Hours are good, however, it's no Golden Gate.
Anyone have thoughts on HicksMuse lfestyle? I worked with them on deals from financing side. I couldn't tell what the hours of the crew back at the ranch were.
I agree with Dan Bush, I mean what's the whole point of making money if you're not working hard to get it.
The whole point of making money is that then you have money.
BAML (and other BB's) in terms of sweatshop and lifestyle culture? (Originally Posted: 02/28/2010)
I was just reading a thread discussing the difficult/anal culture and lifestyle of Lazard, with what included a members personal ranking of the elite boutiques. The rank was in terms of the overworked and anal lifestyle to the more chill and collegial lifestyle. So, this got me thinking, how would the top 5-6 BB firms (GS, MS, JPM, BAML, CS, Citi, etc..) rank in strict lifestyle terms, from anal/sweatshop to chill/not-as-overworked? And how do the lifestyles at these BB's differ from those of the elite boutiques (Laz, BX, Evercore, etc..)?
I realize this is a difficult and impossible variable to measure (ranking in terms of overworked and anal culture), but this is something that could be useful for those who are looking at the BB's in terms of lifestyle and culture. And actually, I'd be most interested in specifically knowing BAML's lifestyle/work culture, in comparison to the other BB's, from those who know based on first or second hand experience, if possible.
gridco is a sweatshop but great exit opps
Anal is a huge part of the culture at BAML.
It's a lot harder to say for BBs than the elite boutiques since it tends to be very group dependent. CS overall tends to be relatively chill for a BB though by what I've heard--at least my friends there seem to be relatively happy. For BAML, I would ask people working in the groups you're interested in.
being a huge tool is a big part of baml (1styearbanker)
From my experience, compliance seems to be strictest at GS.
Biggest Sweat Shops (Originally Posted: 07/17/2010)
Now that it's midway through the summer, a lot of the summer analysts have had time to get a sense of what banking is about. More importantly, in the office, we hear the other analysts talk about the hours that they and they're roomates were pulling their first years. This topic could have been brought up already, but I think it's just too necessary to ignore.
What banks are the biggest sweatshops?
No, not "all banks have the same bad hours." Some banks hours push harder and longer than anywhere in the country. Which banks are they?
It's more group than bank specific.
I can honestly say CS and UBS keep analysts there longer than they should. Friend runs BC LA, their Analysts do 8am - 9-11pm.
HL LA is bad as well BAML LA - more lenient
cant speak of anymore
8am - 9-11pm is bad?
The answer is group specific, and will also depend on deal flow within a particular industry at that point in time.
Healthcare groups generally work less... I know this is true of JPM and the bank i'm working at. When work comes, we work late till 4 or 5am, but during the quiet period, we can go as early as 7pm. It all averages out to around 80-90 hours a week.
What makes you think Healthcare groups work less? From my understanding, they tend to be more on the sweatshop spectrum than the other coverage groups. What bank are you working at?
i hear there are some pretty bad sweat shops in malaysia... china also has a lot. some of them even use child labor!
9-11pm is not bad AT ALL. I think that's a pretty average day for analysts at just about any bank. Bad is when you come in at 8am on Monday and collapse after the pitch on Friday because you've only had 10 hours of sleep all week.
Isn't UBS LA notorious for long hours?
Which coverage groups do some of you think are generally less sweatshop-ish than other coverage groups?
Did I ever say thats bad? I was talking about Barclays. not UBS/HL/CS
9-11 is fukin cake.
9-11, if it's 6 days a week, is 84 hours a week. I guess it's a bit on the lighter side, but I don't know about calling it cake.
tech is SF. the nyc part is the m, which is media.
Wrong. NYC TMT includes some tech, but is the base for media & telecom.
^MT
Deustche Bank tech in SF. Complete sweat shop.
JPM industrials
heard that HSBC in london for their summer analyst programm promised to award 1 FT offer to the guy who spends the most hours in the office over the 10week period. thats fuckin brutal. ppl start sleeping there apparently.
JPM Industrials is a sweatshop
I'm not exactly sure what defines "sweatshop." Is it just really long hours or long hours + shitty culture? Anyways, here is what I have heard (take w/ grain of salt):
Really Long Hours: - GS TMT and FIG - MS Tech M&A - Most groups at Lazard - JPM Industrials - Moelis - Jefferies Foster City - A lot of HK offices
Long Hours + Everyone Hates Working There: - DB Tech - UBS Tech - UBS LA
Industrials is often a sweatshop anywhere, because, industrials = everything that doesn't belong in any other group. You got stuff like Aerospace & Defense, education, paper and packaging, chemicals, rentals, etc. etc.
With that said... things definitely aren't that bad where I'm at. If it werent' for facetime, im sure most interns could leave by 10pm.
Which firms are known as sweatshops? (Originally Posted: 06/28/2013)
Which firms are known as sweatshops?
Also, which banks have a reputation of having a better work/life balance (easier hours)
As an analyst.
Some firms I was curious on are Houlihan Lokey, Lazard, Harris Williams, Piper...etc
Sounds like you are looking in MPLS, so I'm assuming you are grouping Lazard MM (not Lazard parent) in with the other similar firms.
Piper is a sweatshop. Also been struggling, so expect to work long and hard.
Lazard MM is mixed (met a few that claimed they worked 80/wk, others were 100/wk).
HLHZ is rough (90-100 for M&A, not sure on Rx), but you get to wear jeans/casual clothing.
Not sure on HW.
Thanks for your feedback peinvestor. Would you be willing to add to your post by ranking these firms by best exit opps?
And if anyone else would be willing to chime in it would be greatly appreciated.
HLHZ Healthcare in SF - person told me he 1nce puled 4- all niter in row - cosnistent 110+ hrs
Ridic
Nike, Apple especially in their Asia offices.
not sure if jking ... Asia works u super hard tho
I think you missed it. He's talking about actual sweatshops
mudkipz is sad :((((((
lol @ asia working hard... working hard at aggregating creds pages and blasting the global distro for examples of accretion / dilution...
Man, I think we work for the same bank Received the exact same blast back in April
you work at teh goldman sacks?
is that the firm w/ lloyd cohn and gary blankfein ?>
Haaaa, this.
Certain industry groups at HLHZ Corp Fin have not so good hours. HLHZ RX obv has longer hours but the people are chill, get to wear jeans on Friday, and $40 for dinner every day
So true
i highly doubt he was able to stay up for that many hours. 36 hours is tough enough, imagine almost 3 times that. don't believe everything you hear, people love to say they work longer as they brag about it as a badge of honor. also I've personally never seen a houlihan tech deal (SF)...am I wrong?
i heard goldman is easy breezy
Tough call. I know guys at all of them that have done well. What is your end goal? PE, HF, Corp Dev?
That will help me rank them.
I know a few of those firms have great exit to mm PE firms. I also wouldn't mind getting the skill set for HF. As you can tell I am still open to both options. I would say corp dev would be a distant 3rd career path. Thanks for the help
I would go:
1) HLHZ (M&A is improving and sponsors group isn't a bad way to connect w/PE) 2) HW / Lazard MM (really could go either way here) 3) Piper (again, the ultimate sweatshop in terms of hours, on the plus side, does have sponsors group and a reputation)
You get into any MM PE fund from these. HF is very limited IMO. Only option would really be to move to ER first or Rx.
Thanks for your help Peinvestor. I figured these banks were more PE oriented.
Anyone else care to share any insights?
Shit son you ever hear about the person who pulled a 140 hour week at Lazard? Look it up
seriously, I think all of these firms are probably sweatshops
Lazard MM does not equal Lazard
Can you please provide the link? Thanks
This.
I know someone who interned at Cowen and said it was a sweatshop..
keep in mind being a sweatshop is not always a good thing. if MDs at Piper (just an example) aren't getting engaged on deals, they will go into panick mode and just start pitching left and right in hopes to land SOMETHING to get some fees for a bonus. its the type of work/quality of work that matters.
Houlihan RX/Moelis for example do close a lot of deals may not pitch as much as a Piper for example. And is this new to me, or since when is Piper a sweatshop? lol they seem suuper laid back and 1st years in SF told me (consumer/tech) told me they do like 80 hrs/week on average.
This. This so goddamn much...
"URGENT! Please pass along any off the shelf materials for [ALL MY FUCKING WORK THAT I NEVER DO]"
To all the incoming 1st years, one of my main pieces of advice is do not be a blast whore. Your colleagues around the world will fucking hate you.
Well then, it's a good thing he said healthcare, right?
lol this kid obv u sleep intermittenly for small pockets of time - and it ws a one off thing - HLHZ hc in SF is known 4 sweatshop hours - understaffed tho plus the medtech MD is John Soden, the crazy ex-MD frum Thomas Wiesel lol
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Which firm works its analysts to the bone? (Originally Posted: 03/28/2008)
I am very interested in this. When I was doing my internship, the consensus was that KKR was a total sweatshop. Worst lifestyle of any big buyout shop. On these boards, I've heard Audax is up there with the absolute worst in terms of lifestyle. Is there any consensus on the street as to which shops push their analysts hardest? Does it make their analysts 'better' in the process -- more experience, better under pressure, and hence, more desirable for other shops?
That is, if you were at say, KKR, you would have a pretty easy time lateraling over to Apollo or Carlyle?
I chose my firm based partly on lifestyle concerns. Everyone I met said "out by 8 or 9 latest, barely any weekends". The comp isn't exactly top-tier, but it's competitive and it fits my needs. Is there any relationship between comp and level of work required?
Apollo, KKR and Blackstone all work their guys, KKR no more than the others. Apollo promotes guys without b school though, which is a bit different.
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