Worst sweatshops?

Just wondering, which firms are known to have the worst hours on Wall Street? Which ones have the worst culture?

From reading old threads, it seems like GS TMT, MS M&A, Moelis, and Lazard are all pretty bad.

Can I get a sense of realistic hours in these groups? 18 hours M-F? 12 hour weekends?
Reason I'm asking is that the group I am joining is said to be pretty hardcore in terms of culture and hours. How do you cope?

 

You'd be surprised how quickly days start going when you're working consistent 80+ hour weeks. No one is consistently pulling 18 hour days M-F week-after-week, even at the sweatshops (though, don't get me wrong, the hours are pretty brutal). You just have to make sure you savor what rest you can get and stay active during work. Catch up on sleep on the weekends. This is what you're signing up for.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 
streetwannabe:
Also interested. What makes these certain group such sweatshops? Why TMT and healthcare and M&A?

Terrible hours, face-time required, unfriendly working environments, and cultures where Associates / VPs regularly step on Analysts to subvert blame. TMT is a broad vertical with lots of deal activity, which keeps people very busy. M&A because the deal process in M&A transactions is by far the most work-intensive and deadline-driven, plus the personalities that are attracted to M&A groups are very Type-A. Healthcare because the industry is esoteric, so their deals tend to be more heavily reliant on the coverage group.

These are very broad generalizations, and I would shy away from relying too heavily on them. The truth is that different groups develop different cultures due very much to the semi-random selection of individuals in the group. After a while, toxic cultures become self-perpetuating. For instance, most BB energy groups are reputed to have horrible hours, but I know of one group at a BB in Houston that consistently works 65-80 hours a week (pretty reasonable) at the junior level. Good luck trying to discern what leads to these outliers.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

Ridiculous. It really is hilarious how off some of the reputations of these shops are.

In the back on my mind I like to think that some enterprising Laz HR rep created the infamous Lazard sweatshop fable to steer away the faint of heart and reward the candidates who expect hell but apply anyway.

At the end of the day it's not even group specific, it's boils down to whether or not certain individuals in certain groups are easy to work with or have absolutely no regard for your time. Because banks are always in dynamic equilibrium, the person that made X group at Y bank have a reputation for being a sweatshop could now by at C group in D bank despite D having a reputation for being a lifestyle shop.

“Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do”
 
Nouveau Richie:
Ridiculous. It really is hilarious how off some of the reputations of these shops are.

In the back on my mind I like to think that some enterprising Laz HR rep created the infamous Lazard sweatshop fable to steer away the faint of heart and reward the candidates who expect hell but apply anyway.

At the end of the day it's not even group specific, it's boils down to whether or not certain individuals in certain groups are easy to work with or have absolutely no regard for your time. Because banks are always in dynamic equilibrium, the person that made X group at Y bank have a reputation for being a sweatshop could now by at C group in D bank despite D having a reputation for being a lifestyle shop.

You read my mind. I kind of expected to hear some reference to a certain LA office that changed hands from Drexel to DLJ to UBS as one of those "Sweatshops". But your right, it really is a myth and more of a combination of who you work with and the personalities where you work with a dash of the amount of deal flow your group sees thrown in for good measure. Self perpetuating myths and bias are bad for moral but good for business... just sayin is all...

 

all the confirmed ones are the shit. why work for a firm that will not work you. there is a relationship between what they pay and how hard they work their guys

 
Dan Bush:
all the confirmed ones are the shit. why work for a firm that will not work you. there is a relationship between what they pay and how hard they work their guys
i think he is asking for those that don't pay you fair wage for what you are asked to put in.
 
Dan Bush:
all the confirmed ones are the shit. why work for a firm that will not work you. there is a relationship between what they pay and how hard they work their guys

Completely disagree. You can work someplace which makes a lot of money and pays competitively but doesn't f your plans every weekend and make you skip weddings, etc.

$$$ is not perfectly correlated with eather stress levels or work hours. I assure you of that.

 
jajaja:
I ask just for the hours. I don't want to work banker hours. The 4 mentioned SS are top firms, and pay accordingly, but I still won't work for them...

I think the idea of working hard and doing banking related work goes hand in hand. One would argue (e.g. employers) why would you be a suitable candidate for PE or IB or Hedge Fund if you're not looking forward to the long hours and the challenges. The passion for banking should be there and as for work life balance???... ummm like Gordan Gekko said.. its for whimps.

If you do other line of work, they will offer you better balance, eg consulting

 

PE is not banking work. Its goal is not to please a client and produce paper. You have to make some decisions involving big money, and 99% of the value add is in understanding the company/industry / making sound business judgments. How you can do these when short on rest and under heavy stress is beyond me. Besides, you do a deal a year or less, and look at maybe 5-8 others seriously. The focus is obviously on quality not quantity. I think that at these big firms the problem becomes that they also have too many levels, and at the lower end you are but a monkey with no intellectual input, and this is why they can work you so hard. Another reason not to join them.

 

"PE is not banking work. Its goal is not to please a client and produce paper. You have to make some decisions involving big money, and 99% of the value add is in understanding the company/industry / making sound business judgments." -Jajaja

I am curious as for at what level does one get to assume the type of responsibilty you mentioned above.

I was also wondering about exactly what analysts do at PE's. Do you know about the same type of things as analysts do in banking? I am also interested in the team size/structure at PE's.

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

 

Oaktree's associates get a good experience in and out of the office. They play an active role and are not stuck pushing through models constantly.

Madison Dearborn's fund isn't doing so hot and apparently that atmosphere can be felt at the associate level.

 

"Besides, you do a deal a year or less, and look at maybe 5-8 others seriously. The focus is obviously on quality not quantity. "

and then....

"I think that at these big firms the problem becomes that they also have too many levels, and at the lower end you are but a monkey with no intellectual input"

ummmmm.......explain yourself?

 

Definitely an easier shop than the others mentioned. However does not pay as well as the others listed under the sweatshop category.

I can confirm that Bain Cap is a soul destroying sweatshop.

 
ZIRH:
Healthcare groups generally work less... I know this is true of JPM and the bank i'm working at. When work comes, we work late till 4 or 5am, but during the quiet period, we can go as early as 7pm. It all averages out to around 80-90 hours a week.

What makes you think Healthcare groups work less? From my understanding, they tend to be more on the sweatshop spectrum than the other coverage groups. What bank are you working at?

 

9-11pm is not bad AT ALL. I think that's a pretty average day for analysts at just about any bank. Bad is when you come in at 8am on Monday and collapse after the pitch on Friday because you've only had 10 hours of sleep all week.

- Capt K - "Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
 

I'm not exactly sure what defines "sweatshop." Is it just really long hours or long hours + shitty culture? Anyways, here is what I have heard (take w/ grain of salt):

Really Long Hours: - GS TMT and FIG - MS Tech M&A - Most groups at Lazard - JPM Industrials - Moelis - Jefferies Foster City - A lot of HK offices

Long Hours + Everyone Hates Working There: - DB Tech - UBS Tech - UBS LA

 

Industrials is often a sweatshop anywhere, because, industrials = everything that doesn't belong in any other group. You got stuff like Aerospace & Defense, education, paper and packaging, chemicals, rentals, etc. etc.

With that said... things definitely aren't that bad where I'm at. If it werent' for facetime, im sure most interns could leave by 10pm.

 

Sounds like you are looking in MPLS, so I'm assuming you are grouping Lazard MM (not Lazard parent) in with the other similar firms.

Piper is a sweatshop. Also been struggling, so expect to work long and hard.

Lazard MM is mixed (met a few that claimed they worked 80/wk, others were 100/wk).

HLHZ is rough (90-100 for M&A, not sure on Rx), but you get to wear jeans/casual clothing.

Not sure on HW.

 
peinvestor2012:

Sounds like you are looking in MPLS, so I'm assuming you are grouping Lazard MM (not Lazard parent) in with the other similar firms.

Piper is a sweatshop. Also been struggling, so expect to work long and hard.

Lazard MM is mixed (met a few that claimed they worked 80/wk, others were 100/wk).

HLHZ is rough (90-100 for M&A, not sure on Rx), but you get to wear jeans/casual clothing.

Not sure on HW.

Thanks for your feedback peinvestor. Would you be willing to add to your post by ranking these firms by best exit opps?

And if anyone else would be willing to chime in it would be greatly appreciated.

 
Cruncharoo:

Nike, Apple especially in their Asia offices.

not sure if jking ... Asia works u super hard tho

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
mudkipz:
Cruncharoo:

Nike, Apple especially in their Asia offices.

not sure if jking ... Asia works u super hard tho

I think you missed it. He's talking about actual sweatshops

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." --Abraham Lincoln
 
OkComputer:
mudkipz:
Cruncharoo:

Nike, Apple especially in their Asia offices.

not sure if jking ... Asia works u super hard tho

I think you missed it. He's talking about actual sweatshops

mudkipz is sad :((((((

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
rufiolove:

lol @ asia working hard... working hard at aggregating creds pages and blasting the global distro for examples of accretion / dilution...

Man, I think we work for the same bank Received the exact same blast back in April

- MVP
 
rufiolove:

you work at teh goldman sacks?

is that the firm w/ lloyd cohn and gary blankfein ?>

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
mudkipz:

HLHZ Healthcare in SF - person told me he 1nce puled 4- all niter in row - cosnistent 110+ hrs

Ridic

i highly doubt he was able to stay up for that many hours. 36 hours is tough enough, imagine almost 3 times that. don't believe everything you hear, people love to say they work longer as they brag about it as a badge of honor. also I've personally never seen a houlihan tech deal (SF)...am I wrong?

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG
 
FutureWaller:
peinvestor2012:

Sounds like you are looking in MPLS, so I'm assuming you are grouping Lazard MM (not Lazard parent) in with the other similar firms.

Piper is a sweatshop. Also been struggling, so expect to work long and hard.

Lazard MM is mixed (met a few that claimed they worked 80/wk, others were 100/wk).

HLHZ is rough (90-100 for M&A, not sure on Rx), but you get to wear jeans/casual clothing.

Not sure on HW.

Thanks for your feedback peinvestor. Would you be willing to add to your post by ranking these firms by best exit opps?

And if anyone else would be willing to chime in it would be greatly appreciated.

Tough call. I know guys at all of them that have done well. What is your end goal? PE, HF, Corp Dev?

That will help me rank them.

 
peinvestor2012:
FutureWaller:
peinvestor2012:

Sounds like you are looking in MPLS, so I'm assuming you are grouping Lazard MM (not Lazard parent) in with the other similar firms.

Piper is a sweatshop. Also been struggling, so expect to work long and hard.

Lazard MM is mixed (met a few that claimed they worked 80/wk, others were 100/wk).

HLHZ is rough (90-100 for M&A, not sure on Rx), but you get to wear jeans/casual clothing.

Not sure on HW.

Thanks for your feedback peinvestor. Would you be willing to add to your post by ranking these firms by best exit opps?

And if anyone else would be willing to chime in it would be greatly appreciated.

Tough call. I know guys at all of them that have done well. What is your end goal? PE, HF, Corp Dev?

That will help me rank them.

I know a few of those firms have great exit to mm PE firms. I also wouldn't mind getting the skill set for HF. As you can tell I am still open to both options. I would say corp dev would be a distant 3rd career path. Thanks for the help

 

I would go:

1) HLHZ (M&A is improving and sponsors group isn't a bad way to connect w/PE) 2) HW / Lazard MM (really could go either way here) 3) Piper (again, the ultimate sweatshop in terms of hours, on the plus side, does have sponsors group and a reputation)

You get into any MM PE fund from these. HF is very limited IMO. Only option would really be to move to ER first or Rx.

 
peinvestor2012:

I would go:

1) HLHZ (M&A is improving and sponsors group isn't a bad way to connect w/PE)
2) HW / Lazard MM (really could go either way here)
3) Piper (again, the ultimate sweatshop in terms of hours, on the plus side, does have sponsors group and a reputation)

You get into any MM PE fund from these. HF is very limited IMO. Only option would really be to move to ER first or Rx.

Thanks for your help Peinvestor. I figured these banks were more PE oriented.

Anyone else care to share any insights?

 
Mitt Romney:

Shit son
you ever hear about the person who pulled a 140 hour week at Lazard seriously, I think all of these firms are probably sweatshops

Can you please provide the link? Thanks

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 
peinvestor2012:
Mitt Romney:

Shit son
you ever hear about the person who pulled a 140 hour week at Lazard?
Look it up

seriously, I think all of these firms are probably sweatshops

Lazard MM does not equal Lazard

This.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

keep in mind being a sweatshop is not always a good thing. if MDs at Piper (just an example) aren't getting engaged on deals, they will go into panick mode and just start pitching left and right in hopes to land SOMETHING to get some fees for a bonus. its the type of work/quality of work that matters.

Houlihan RX/Moelis for example do close a lot of deals may not pitch as much as a Piper for example. And is this new to me, or since when is Piper a sweatshop? lol they seem suuper laid back and 1st years in SF told me (consumer/tech) told me they do like 80 hrs/week on average.

I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought- GG
 
rufiolove:

lol @ asia working hard... working hard at aggregating creds pages and blasting the global distro for examples of accretion / dilution...

This. This so goddamn much...

"URGENT! Please pass along any off the shelf materials for [ALL MY FUCKING WORK THAT I NEVER DO]"

To all the incoming 1st years, one of my main pieces of advice is do not be a blast whore. Your colleagues around the world will fucking hate you.

“Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do”
 
AnalystMonkey2769:
mudkipz:

HLHZ Healthcare in SF - person told me he 1nce puled 4- all niter in row - cosnistent 110+ hrs

Ridic

i highly doubt he was able to stay up for that many hours. 36 hours is tough enough, imagine almost 3 times that. don't believe everything you hear, people love to say they work longer as they brag about it as a badge of honor. also I've personally never seen a houlihan tech deal (SF)...am I wrong?

Well then, it's a good thing he said healthcare, right?

“Millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do”
 
Nouveau Richie:
AnalystMonkey2769:
mudkipz:

HLHZ Healthcare in SF - person told me he 1nce puled 4- all niter in row - cosnistent 110+ hrs

Ridic

i highly doubt he was able to stay up for that many hours. 36 hours is tough enough, imagine almost 3 times that. don't believe everything you hear, people love to say they work longer as they brag about it as a badge of honor. also I've personally never seen a houlihan tech deal (SF)...am I wrong?

Well then, it's a good thing he said healthcare, right?

lol this kid obv u sleep intermittenly for small pockets of time - and it ws a one off thing - HLHZ hc in SF is known 4 sweatshop hours - understaffed tho plus the medtech MD is John Soden, the crazy ex-MD frum Thomas Wiesel lol

"so i herd u liek mudkipz" - sum kid "I'd watergun the **** outta that." - Kassad
 

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