Unpaid Interns

I've been trying to land internships for the Fall and haven't had any luck. I'm considering working for free to gain some experience in the field. How would I approach firms? Is it okay to be direct with them on the phone and offer to work for free?

 

From what I've heard (take it with a grain of salt), companies are quite hesitant to take full-time unpaid intern. They're scared that they'll work you like a full-timer and then you come back and bitch/moan, which will give them a bad rep. If they value you, they'll pay you a bit of a stipend.

Also not really that legal to not pay someone for doing the work of someone who would normally be paid.

just my $0.02

 

I'm in a very similar situation right now except I'm going to be a senior looking for fall internships (not sure about OP). This summer I'm interning at a boutique and need to get more internships under my belt. Would a Fall internship benefit me at all for FT recruiting? I'm not trying to get BB banks, more like MM or well known boutiques come FT recruiting.

 
Best Response

I will chip in my $0.02 here - most of what has been said is correct up to a point. I did an unpaid internship a long time ago and it was a great stepping stone to greater things (PM recommendations for both a new job and business school years later).

Couple of things: You won't get an unpaid internship at a bank or even a slightly reputable firm (just forget it). If these guys need interns, they will pay to have them. However, you can get internship in really small and no name shops (this might sound counter intuitive, but come FT recruiting, its nice to have worked in a well know firm, but just working in the industry even at a small shop still holds it own weight. Remember that even PM's at small shops have buddies at bigger/more reputable firms - its a small world. So start small leverage it into something better. If you can get thru to someone useful at any of these small shops on the phone, be upfront and offer to work for free. Highlight what benefits you bring to the table right off the bat and how they have nothing to lose or worry about, as you just need experience.

 

My first internship in finance was unpaid at a PWM firm. They recruited for full time positions at the job fair at my Uni and I offered to work for free during my senior year fall semester. I would really advocate for doing so, the advisors who owned the practice almost felt guilty about me working hard without being compensated so they made sure I got alot of exposure and their recommendation letters were better than I deserved.

Obviously, getting paid is better but if its all you can work out I wouldnt hesitate to take it.

 

1) I don't have as much experience in cold emailing as some of the people on WSO, but I normally just ask people for twenty minutes of their time to talk on the phone. Pretty good reply rate. I had one instance where a phone call led to an informational interview that led to an internship down the road. Even if you come up empty now, it might pay off later.

2) You can't tame the J-dawg

"He was an idiot! He was a bouncer who got his Series 7" - Josh Brown
 

I directly asked for an internship in the body of my email, got a phone call interview, then met up in person to do a second and then that's how I got my internship.

 

^ Appreciate your response! My GPA is 3.72 and I haven't taken GMAT/GRE. I've been thinking of staying at school an extra semester/year to get work experience during summer and study for the tests. My math background is pretty decent, got 700 something on SAT even though I didn't need to study much for it. (got a full ride for athletics).

Which MSF programs should I look at? CFA could be another option if I wanna do Asset Management/ corp finance I guess.

 

Going back to the topic, any advice on cold-emailing/cold-calling to get an unpaid internship for the Spring? While I'm mostly interested in IBD, I realize my chances are pretty low to find anything, so I would not mind doing Asset Management/equity research etc.

 

I got my first internship by pestering the hell out of a MM ER group. The only reason I ended up on the payroll is so I could get the security badge to get into the building. The best thing to do is to try to get a position the normal way and then save this for when you definitely know you're not getting a formal internship.

It's generally not a good idea to offer to work for free b/c it's seen as desperate. The one thing that worked for me was pitching it like this: "I'm so interested in working for you that I'd do it for free." Make it a positive......sell yourself.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:
I got my first internship by pestering the hell out of a MM ER group. The only reason I ended up on the payroll is so I could get the security badge to get into the building. The best thing to do is to try to get a position the normal way and then save this for when you definitely know you're not getting a formal internship.

It's generally not a good idea to offer to work for free b/c it's seen as desperate. The one thing that worked for me was pitching it like this: "I'm so interested in working for you that I'd do it for free." Make it a positive......sell yourself.

May seem a bit desperate, but you'd rather come off as desperate and have an Ibanking internship listed on your resume than seem too pushy and end up with nothing. My first 3 Ibanking internships were unpaid, the second 2 I offered to work for free. I leveraged all of them to get a FT BB offer.

 

So what types of firms (names even) would you look at and how would you go about contacting them to even start a conversation about an unpaid internship? I'm ready to give up on getting a legit offer, and being a career changer it's really wearing on me that despite having super strong credentials I'm just not able to break in because I'm late in the recruiting cycle. I'd much rather get some experience, and use that to leverage myself into a full time offer when one exists in the fall.

 

One reason I am willing to do it for free is that they don't have actual internships over summer and are small (18 people) so they don't employ many new people FT every year. I would like to get some investment banking experience and since last month of summer would be free for me I realized I'd better do something productive.

 
Beny23:
One reason I am willing to do it for free is that they don't have actual internships over summer and are small (18 people) so they don't employ many new people FT every year. I would like to get some investment banking experience and since last month of summer would be free for me I realized I'd better do something productive.

its really not productive if all you do is fetch coffee and bind books. better find out what kind of work you'll be doing

 
Beny23:
One reason I am willing to do it for free is that they don't have actual internships over summer and are small (18 people) so they don't employ many new people FT every year. I would like to get some investment banking experience and since last month of summer would be free for me I realized I'd better do something productive.
The boutique IMD firm I'm interning at currently is only 15 people strong with 6 on the advisory team (they do all the research, too) and the rest doing compliance/support and they still pay me for my work. It's nothing too much that people are knocking down their doors to get an internship, but its still an impressive amount for how much I actually do. Point is that no matter what the size is they should be able to pay you at least something. Plus, if they can't actually afford to pay you anything then I doubt the other staff are making a lot themselves - so if you have them on your radar for possible FT offers that might be something to consider.
 

I wasn't paid for my sophomore summer boutique internship. No regrets, got me interviews and offers at BBs. Everyone starts somewhere. Who gives a shit if you're paid if you get meaningful work out of it that you can put on the resume? It actually went over really well in super days when I said it was unpaid. People see it as a testament to your work ethic, not an illustration of how shitty the bank was.

 
triplectz:
I wasn't paid for my sophomore summer boutique internship. No regrets, got me interviews and offers at BBs. Everyone starts somewhere. Who gives a shit if you're paid if you get meaningful work out of it that you can put on the resume? It actually went over really well in super days when I said it was unpaid. People see it as a testament to your work ethic, not an illustration of how shitty the bank was.

I agree, everyone has to start somewhere. Even if you're getting coffee/binding books, you'll still get some exposure to what banking is like. The key is to be proactive and try and learn as much as possible - if this is the best you can get then take it, you can leverage this for future internships.

 

Why would you work for free? It can't be good and you won't get any respect. everyone will say thats the guy working for free. you're just wasting time. If I were you, I'd build my own equity and work for myself instead.

 

Yeah man, I'd say it's a good idea. Pad the resume a bit, get exposure to banking, meet/network with people. It's one month so even if they have you doing crazy hours (which I doubt) you can battle through pretty easily. Get after it.

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
 

I would do it. If nothing else, it's something to talk about in an interview - whether it's a good/practical experience or not, there's always something you can take from it. Plus you get a feel for the banking culture and environment.

 

I worked last summer as an unpaid. IMO, it wouldn't be beneficial to put on the fact that you weren't paid, and actually think it'd be better if they didn't know, given if they think you were being paid as an intern that you must've been worth paying. It is better to sometimes be more ambiguous and less transparent when it comes to the sensitive things (such as pay).

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
 

Okay so you don't think bringing something up such as being Unpaid for the past year shows determination over your peers? I think it shows that I am not just in this for the money, but I am genuinely interested.. Wrong?

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

It definitely makes rational sense, but I'm just not sure if it would be something that a recruiter would perceive in the same way that you do. Even if it is logical, again, I just kind of doubt that they will really care that much.

Just to clarify, if you are trying to demonstrate your determination in an actual interview, then it may be appropriate. I was specifically saying that I don't think that there would be a good/appropriate way of indicating that you were unpaid on you resume or cover letter.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
 

Don't include "unpaid" anywhere in your resume or cover letter. This is a no brainer.

If you've been unpaid for a while, keep looking to lateral. It's only a matter of time before you get tired of pulling long hours and doing good work without pay (says more about the firm you're at, if anything).

 

^ I agree, but unfortunately as a sophomore from a non-target, I will take anything IB related in NYC that I can get. This happened to be my only option. Hopefully this will be the last go-around in terms of being unpaid, as I hope this can help me get SA at a bulge bracket. But we will see.

"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
 

I figure they can just pick anyone up pretty easily, but how bad is it to renege? It seems like very poor form. The issue is really the timing of it all, at this point i dont want to ask for too long of an extension to see the other interview through, in fear that they will indeed pick someone else up as it is a small boutique. My main focus is to get an offer first obviously, but I would like to know what the appropriate way to go about this would be.

  8.7.3
 

I agree, I wouldn't renege. Assuming you've interviewed at least once for each place, should the unpaid give you an offer, let the other know that you are sitting on an offer, but are still very interested in the paid, and politely request to know if you can expect to proceed in the process.

Or depending on whether the unpaid gives you a short timeline, you can also try to extend it in the interest of completing both processes.

 

Financial institutions are heartless machines. Dont feel that they would give you any leeway. This place isnt even offering you anything for your time - youre basically volunteering there. You owe them nothing. They wouldnt hesitate to fire you for a moment if they felt you were the slightest bit of difficulty for them. You are your own utility maximizer, and these guys should be grateful for any time you give them.

“...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” - Schopenhauer
 

It would, unfortunately, make you appear more desperate and will make people consider hiring you, for free, to do exclusively grunt work - no real experience gained. However, if you take a positive spin on the phrase and mention instead that you are most interested in building your knowledge and experience in the field, that sort of hints that you would be willing to work for free as long as you can learn more.

The statement isn't necessary by any means, but if you want to put the extra line in, don't go with the for free statement, go with a statement expressing your interest in skill set, etc above all else. Good luck.

 

First off, chances are that even if you include it in your cover letter, the person screening your resume/cover letter probably will not even read it closely enough to notice. Second, it will definitely make you sound desperate, as the above posters noted. I agree with I-banker, that if anything they will take you on as a free intern (more like glorified secretary) and have you doing things like making copies and getting coffee (which you will do as an analyst as well) and you won't actually get any experience other than remembering everyone's Starbucks order.

I will add a caveat to my post however. If you do in fact fail to get an internship, and as the summer gets closer, you could try and personally reach out to alumni at boutique firms that have a less formalized recruiting process. They may have the need to add an extra intern if the market heats up towards the end of the school year. If you pick up the phone and try and connect with some of the alums from your school, mentioning that you are really just looking for experience this summer, and the ability to prove yourself, they may be willing to bring you on and actually give you some real experience. That's the benefit of looking at smaller shops.

 
Billy Ray Valentine:
First off, chances are that even if you include it in your cover letter, the person screening your resume/cover letter probably will not even read it closely enough to notice.

Bingo.

 
Billy Ray Valentine:
I will add a caveat to my post however. If you do in fact fail to get an internship, and as the summer gets closer, you could try and personally reach out to alumni at boutique firms that have a less formalized recruiting process. They may have the need to add an extra intern if the market heats up towards the end of the school year. If you pick up the phone and try and connect with some of the alums from your school, mentioning that you are really just looking for experience this summer, and the ability to prove yourself, they may be willing to bring you on and actually give you some real experience. That's the benefit of looking at smaller shops.

I have a question regarding this. Do people mind when someone from their old school e-mails or calls them asking directly for an internship? I mean I have had informational conversations with former graduates before and prefer to hold some form of conversation before straight-out asking for an internship, but never sent any alumnus an e-mail with an attached resume and cover letter, asking for a job as my first contact. Would that be an okay thing to do in finance (Excuse me if this is a stupid question. I am really ignorant when it comes to 'manners' in the finance industry)?

Thanks again.

 

You should get your ass up off the couch and look for yourself. The fact that you're even asking someone to hand you a HF internship on a silver platter shows your ignorance (and laziness), and my guess is that you probably don't have what it takes given your willingness to work at a HF for free. Most all HF's pay their interns (quite well) because otherwise they would not get the talent that they require.

Get on the internet and start looking for some opportunities yourself. If you dont have any serious finance experience, which it sounds like you don't, you can probably go ahead and give up looking for a gig at a HF. Most of them are already filled for the summer anyway. Look into PWM or MM and boutique firms - they usually have more informal recruiting processes that would work better given what you stated about your situation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tend to think of myself as a one-man wolfpack Buyside strongside
 

The above poster is wrong about the way HF internships work - yes, the better places pay their interns quite well, and are certainly full by now, but there are tons of places with minimal AUM who have historically been all too happy to take unpaid interns as cheap labour - of course, if they have nothing invested in you, there's no guarantee that you'll be given meaningful work, so it is up to you to make sure the work is interesting.

It's highly unlikely anyone here will be willing to give you the names of any hedge funds, for several reasons.

Additionally, if you do find an internship opening, you'll run in to three problems:

1) You appear to have minimal finance experience, which will mitigate their interest in you 2) You are Australian, which would mean they have to procure a visa for you, which the sorts of funds that still have places would likely be hesitant to do 3) The Feds have recently begun cracking down on unpaid internships (which are illegal), according to a recent piece in the NYT

 

I read that article in the NYTime and while I agree in some respects, in crappy economic times such as these any restriction on unpaid internships will only hurt kids looking for jobs. If you are working at a firm trying to get experience and they have you cleaning toilets you need to be an adult and quit or talk to your boss. Could government please not get involved in someone trying to add to their resume and get a job. Talk about being counter productive.

 

I agree; restricting unpaid internships is silly. You're an adult, you can make your own choices.

That said, the real problem with unpaid internships is that they increase social stratification - while rich white kids can work for free and have mom and dad pay for their place in New York for the summer, but poorer kids have to actually work for the summer, and thus don't get the same chances, which limits intergenerational mobility.

 

Here's the big question, if you've already got a job and already graduated, what are you expecting an unpaid internship with a small IB boutique to do and why are they looking to hire you? It's not an insult by any means, I am only asking because unpaid internships are great for students trying to break in from a non-target background, but someone that graduated already with a FT job will not benefit from pursuing an unpaid internship for a few months. Your better bet will be to advance at your job and make a push to get into a top 15 MBA program - you don't need top 5 or even 10 to break into IB - top 15 will put you in a solid position to break in and if you don't care about BB IB, then you can get away with top 20 as well (especially for regional shops).

For the most part, unpaid internships are nice ways to make the move into a better paid internship ahead of FT IB recruiting, but going from a non-target school to a non-finance position to a short unpaid IB internship with a boutique is not going open a ton of doors for you and might pose several risks in terms of next steps (unless the boutique was interested in providing a FT opportunity).

 

Good question, well first my reasoning is that based on the interview and conversation I had with the MD there they bring their interns on with the intent of hiring them FT (so this may have a high possibility) and I have already expressed myself as far as getting a FT position there.

Second I want to break into IB at the analyst level because for exit opps. I would like to get into PE someday and I feel that if I went the Analyst---> Associate route it would be better for P/E recruiting (compared to breaking into IB at the post-MBA associate level)

Third, I am applying to a MSc Finance type program and I know that to be competitive for an analyst job after graduation I need some kind of internship under my belt. So if this internship doesn't materialize into a FT offer, then i have the "internship experience" to make myself more marketable for FT gigs upon graduation of the MSc program.

Fourth- I hate what i'm doing now, and I dont see myself doing this for four more years and it provides no valuable skill sets for IB.

I don't mean to come off as being rude, but those are my honest answers. Thanks for your help!

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis - when I was dead broke man I couldn't picture this
 

Now it makes a bit more sense to me. Although still a very non-traditional path, I understand your rationale, although you might want to get into the MSc program first before accepting the position - for the same reason as listed above - if you don't get in and don't get the FT offer, you will have a difficult situation on your hands in terms of next steps to both keep your head above water and position yourself to eventually break into FT IB.

You also have to remember that for analyst roles, you will have a more difficult time breaking in at this stage - a few years post graduation with work experience. Even though you are planning to pursue the MSc, at that stage, IB will be looking for the associate move, rather than the analyst (military experience is the exception to this). For smaller shops, this would not be as big of a deal, although smaller boutiques won't open nearly as many doors for PE.

Moving past all of this, to tackle your initial question, I would suggest you go to your parents, and if they can't help, then you'll have to file for a private loan online to hold you up and then it will be on your to pick up side jobs to cover the minimum payment for a few short months until the FT offer comes through. It won't be easy, but if you break in and get what you're after, it's worth it. Good luck.

 

Why is getting a 5-10K loan from your parents a big risk? I don't see it... Even if you don't end up with a FT offer, at some point in your life you will be able to pay them back... I would make sure you pursue this, and if your parents don't give you the loan, do whatever it takes (including credit cards if you can't get money any other way). Many who want to break into the industry would PAY to do such an internship (on top of opp. cost) - assuming the shop is legit.

 

Well, he doesn't want to go the MBA route, which is not typical, but sounds feasible, especially with this internship. Also, his job isn't finance related, so it won't be as good of a pre-MSc/MSF role as NY IB experience, no? I'm just thinking out loud and playing devil's advocate b/c I'm trying to do something similar and would love to hear more input. What's the feasibility of working weekend jobs as an intern - impossible? Possible on weekend nights?

 

It is possible and I know plenty of people who have done this (including myself)

Key is you want to make them pay you.

Work hard, do a good job, be someone they can rely on, and be an asset.

They know you are not getting paid and if you find a similar opportunity that is paid you will leave. If you are doing a good job and they need the help they will offer you a stipend or pay hourly. It is much easier for them to keep you then to bring in another kid and teach them the basics all over.

 
YMCM-IB:
It is possible and I know plenty of people who have done this (including myself)

Key is you want to make them pay you.

Work hard, do a good job, be someone they can rely on, and be an asset.

This seems to be true based on many posts, but also when you're unpaid, you're probably not putting in 90-100 hours a week. I feel like it'd be really disappointing to get to your SA position that's unpaid, have them expect you to work like 65 hours, you put in 90 so you have a shot at getting paid, and then they just say "thanks have a nice day".
 

Usually unpaid internships are not taken seriously because employers know the job responsibilities you have are usually a joke (getting coffee, shadowing someone all day, making copies, etc.). Hence, this is why the job was unpaid to begin with. Usually employers know that if you were doing REAL work then you would have deserved to have been paid. I would honestly look for something else. This is just my two cents. Please make your own decision, however, and not let someone on an anonymous message board make it for you.

Now if you can find a way to twist the usual perception around and make this unpaid internship work for you in your favor, despite the aforementioned drawbacks, then by all means go right ahead. At least you will be putting a good name on your resume. Hell, who even says you have to tell future interviewers/employers that it was unpaid?

 

in my experiences i've rarely been asked whether my internships have been paid/unpaid. even if it does come up, you can always put a positive spin on it by saying you were doing it for the learning experience, not for money.

 

i'm sure you can find something at a boutique.

I am actually starting a boutique internship in 2 weeks, and I think two other kids are also starting this week.

Just network and look into smaller 5-10 man shops.

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis - when I was dead broke man I couldn't picture this
 
wsib1:
Thanks. Do they take juniors or international students with no prior experience in finance?

Honestly, if I do it, it's gonna cost a few k, how helpful is it going to be long term?

It can be extremely helpful. I know a few guys that have turned unpaid internships into both jobs and paid internships.
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
wsib1:
Thanks. Do they take juniors or international students with no prior experience in finance?

Honestly, if I do it, it's gonna cost a few k, how helpful is it going to be long term?

Absolutely worth it. Learn the skill you need to during the internship and with a little networking after it isn't unfathomable at all that you get BB interviews for FT.

 

You use the fact that you are an intern at your noname boutique to build a networking story around it. That will help you talking with bankers, because you can say that you did this or that, and been around actual bankers. It's an advantage versus "how it is like to be a banker?" crowd trying to network. It makes you look somewhat legit.

However, you still have to go out where the bankers are, and network with them.

 

I have a question about this. I am set for a first round of interviews at a boutique firm. This firm to my knowledge is not a great firm, but I have noticed on LinkedIn several profiles of people starting at this particular firm as an Intern or maybe analyst, and going right to buldge brackets and other prestigious firms, I thought this was not probable at all and it surprised me.

Is this a good firm to go to? I have a feeling I might get the job here.

 

A firm that I thought was better had virtually nobody transferring to prestigous firms afterwards, and their careers took strange turns, but this boutique firm must have a decent reputation, because I have seen a lot of good careers following internship.

 

Have you had previous modelling experience? Also, how did you get the interview, cold-calling? Last, how technical was this interview??

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.
 

mhurricane: No previous modeling experience. I got the interview through randomly emailing alumni at boutiques. The interview was not that technical. Walk me through a DCF, What is WACC, etc.

helpmepleasethx: I tried. Nothing like that at my school.

Anyone know what I should do?

 

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