UT v. SMU Honors
I've been accepted to both McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas and Cox School of Business for the BBA Scholars and University Honors programs at Southern Methodist University. I get the idea that I'll be a mediocre student at UT and get recruited by a decent firm after graduating; at SMU, I'd have all the privileges and resources that BBA Scholars and Honors students enjoy, not to mention an incredible networking opportunity and individual attention. I know that UT is better known on Wall Street, which is where I'm hoping to make it after undergrad. I would like to start out in investment banking. Any thoughts? Pros/cons of each school, aside from cost?
I am in the BBA scholars program at SMU and can answer questions if you PM me.
Admittedly a little biased here... But Dallas is a great city with all the big name banking firms present within 15m of campus. If you do SMU right, aka Cox (You're pre accepted as Honors)=> Declare finance, kill grades=> apply and get into Alternative Asset school within Cox=> finish out with above a 3.5 with internships every summer progressively more ibanking specific, there is a very very good chance you will have an offer before you graduate. Easier said than done of course especially with a very lively social scene on campus.
Like which firms. JPM consumer and retail, HLHZ, and mccoll partners and a some boutiques. thats pretty much it.
Thanks for the input. How does that compare to Texas? I've heard UT is more national and international, while SMU is strong regionally. I know banking is great in Dallas, but post-graduate, I'll be looking toward New York. How does a BBA Scholar compare to a McCombs student on paper?
SMU is strong regionally, but UT's presence is known throughout the country. I am based out of Houston and UT students are look at much more favorably. It really depends on you though, SMU will be good if you plan on staying in Dallas, but UT's brand is national and it can take you anywhere. I would personally go with UT. Just clarifying, its UT-Austin, right?
Of course it's UT Austin...I don't plan on staying in Dallas after undergraduate.
Regarding banking in Dallas.. I've heard that there isn't too much of your traditional IBD over there. Most investment banks are in Houston. I could be wrong, and would love to hear others chime in on this. I've heard it's more private banking, corporate banking, commercial banking, and asset management. Again, I could very well be wrong, I've never lived or worked in Dallas. Thoughts?
Yea go to UT-Austin, even here in Houston, SMU is kind of like a bleh school. You don't hear about it and I have yet to meet anyone from SMU, but I have met several from UT.
SMU actually has a relatively strong presence in Houston despite it's location. To the OP: the Alternative Asset Management Program at SMU will take you places. While it is a relatively new program (I think 6-7 years old), it already has a great reputation - something that being "just another UT grad" can't give you.
McCombs is a great business school. They have a large amount of prominent alumni and connections with great firms on Wall Street and Houston (Oil & Gas).
Banking in NY will be a tough shot from both schools, but you'll have a better chance coming from UT.
It will take work from either school to get out of Texas. SMU places some kids down in Houston and UT places quite a few. As for New York firms recruiting UT, Greenhill and Evercore (restructuring and M&A) do OCR at UT. For other banks, you will have to network your way out of the state. But, most NY offices are receptive if you are an excellent student. A couple kids place there each year.
It will be slightly easier to land on the street from UT. But, you will need to be a standout to get there from either school.
As for IB in Dallas, there really isn't much. The only major groups I know of are JPM Consumer Retail and JPM Middle Market.
Does WF have any IB functions in Dallas? Leveraged Finance maybe? Coverage groups?
I will tell you that the alt asset program just from the seniors and juniors I have talked to who already have offers has insane placement. They only accept about 25 students. We have OCR for almost all Houston BB banks and boutiques. Some MM banks recruit for Midwest positions and NY you have to get through connections or networking. However, like repthybananas said if you follow the route he said and have a 3.5 or higher your chances for an offer are very high. Get some relevant internships your freshman and sophomore year (I will be going to do PE in NY this summer) and it well set you up nicely. The BBA scholar program is also well regarded as they only take 100 students and have one of the highest average SAT scores in the nation for undergrad business schools who accept freshman into their program (look up stats). As far as Dallas, it is not huge for banking (although they have the JPM MM group which is very competitive take about 2 SMU kids each year) but is filled with huge hedge funds, asset management firms, and PE firms. (HBK, Q, Highland, Maverick just to name a few) And these places provide great opportunities for internships in your early years and some recruit off of the SMU job site. The last thing I will say is you will make some insane connections just by going to school here you will meet daughters and sons who are CFO/CEO of F100 companies and a bunch of hedge fund and PE managers who send their kids here. So if you do it right you can get your resume in front of some pretty impressive people. Not to mention the social scene is amazing,
I was a transient student at UT-Austin last summer and the postitions posted on their job board by their alumni is insane. Goldman, deutsche bank, jpm, credit Suisse and many other non-banking opportunities.
If you've already gotten into McCombs, I'd go there, and that's coming from an SMU grad.
Definitely will agree with going to UT Austin. If you don't plan on staying in Dallas after you graduate you are definitely better off with the UT brand than any other.
You will have a strong name nationally/internationally but will have a great reach in Houston/Southern Cities and have a greater possibility of NYC positions. SMU has great connections, but the connections are different than UT Austin. The majority of SMU's rich alumni are not directly IB but rather professionals, executives (corp finance) and stuff like real estate.
Not saying they don't have IB alumni, but saying the majority don't go that route. UT Austin all the way.
Would a degree (BS or MSF) from SMU help in placement into IBD/CapitalMarkets in Texas?
Note: Big fan of Dallas, would not mind staying in Dallas at all.
Anyone?
Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry for being so specific, but the last thing I want to do is end up in Houston. I would be in the BBA Scholars program and I would work my tail off. Also note that UT Austin has 38,000 undergrads while SMU has only 6,000. I always hear about kids who get recruited out of McCombs and make impressive starting salaries, but I also occasionally hear about SMU kids. For example, my friend's brother graduated from SMU, was recruited by UBS, and was recently accepted to Stanford for an MBA. I feel I'd do better as a big fish in the smaller pond...
Anyways, it seems like you know the answer to your own question. Work you butt off and you should be fine. SMU is a great school.
I don't understand why Houston IB doesn't get enough credit. I understand its mainly Oil&Gas but couldn't that be good exposure to have before making a move up north? Like, hey this guy knows energy markets well. It's valuable isn't it? Or am I thinking about it different.
17 years of 100 degree wet heat might change your opinion, debito. For some reason I always held the notion that Dallas is more finance-oriented than is Houston.
http://www.cox.smu.edu/web/alternative-asset-management/aamc-overview
Here's a link about SMU's AAMC program. The placement is decent, but the locations aren't mentioned. I wonder if they're all Texas cities. I also read the median starting salary out of this program is $70k. Not bad considering I'd be "just another UT grad" from McCombs, where the median starting salary is $50k. I have some tough decisions ahead of me, but I think I'm leaning towards SMU again at this point.
Haha I live 6 hours SOUTH of Houston. Yes, the heat is brutal down in Texas!
I don't understand this "just another UT grad" line. If you are a star, you will stick out and people will realize that you're just not some "UT grad." There are plenty of opportunities to differentiate yourself at UT. People don't view every UT student as one homogeneous group. Going to SMU over UT because it is different than the norm is like naming your child some wild ass name because you think it will make you different.
I hope you realize the flaw in comparing those two salary numbers. You can't compare an elite program at one school that graduates 25 top undergraduates a year to the general population at another school. That's like comparing two banks bonuses, but comparing the top bucket at one bank to the average of all buckets at another. Further, this $50k number is not even correct. The average for Finance is 58k (which still presents the issue I noted above). A slightly better comparison would be BHP, which is an average of $63,000. But, this is still a much larger cohort of students than the Cox program and is an average of students across many disciplines, where as the Cox Program is finance-focused and finance pays more than Marketing.
Looking at the placement for that group, it is apparent that is is a good program and if you feel like you will excel at Cox more than McCombs, go for it. But, let's not let shoddy logic and comparisons into the decision.
To the weather point, I agree, the heat down here blows. Luckily, as an IB analyst you will be in the AC of your officer 100 hrs a week and downtown Houston is tunneled so you can get food without melting.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, these are the cities of the listed groups. I hope this helps
2011 Internships: • JP Morgan Chase - Fixed Income Department
• Citi -Global Energy Investment Banking Group -HOUSTON • Goldman Sachs - Specialty Lending -DALLAS • Barclays - Fixed Income & Trading
• Raymond James - Energy Investment Banking -HOUSTON • UBS - Investment Banking
• JP Morgan Chase - Mid-Market Investment Banking Group -DALLAS • EnCap Investments - Oil & Gas Intern -HOUSTON • BofA Merrill Lynch -Energy Investment Banking -HOUSTON • HBK Capital Management - Risk Management Analyst Intern
2011 & 2012 job placement • UBS Investment Bank - Consumer Products and Retail Group -(NY most likely) • Citi - Global Energy Investment Banking Group -HOUSTON • BofA Merrill Lynch - Energy Investment Banking -HOUSTON • MHT Partners - Middle-Market Investment Banking -DALLAS • RBC Capital Market - Energy, Oil and Gas Investment Banking -HOUSTON • JP Morgan Chase - Mid-Market Investment Banking Group -DALLAS • Evercore Partners - Middle Market Investment Banking • Houlihan Lokey - Investment Banking Financial Analyst • Deloitte Consulting - Valuation • Credit Suisse - Oil & Gas Investment Banking -HOUSTON • Goldman Sachs - Specialty Lending -DALLAS • Invesco - Quantitative Research Analyst • Westwood Holdings Group - Institutional and Mutual Fund Investing
If it sounds like I'm trying to persuade to choose McCombs over Cox, I apologize. Those are not my intentions. If I were in your shoes, I would choose McCombs. But, not everyone is the same and the schools are different and cater to different people. You seem to be very interested in Cox. It is by no means a bad program. Run with it. The only reason I feel it necessary to refute some of your claims is that other students in your position will inevitably search for this information and I feel it important that there is an accurate picture of each program painted.
I like being one of about 100 or so finance majors in Cox who actually try really hard to keep a 3.8+ rather than being one of like 1000+ like I would be at UT. UT is a great school but a different social scene for those not from TEXAS. Not to mention SMU is stepping it up big lately with a brand new general education curriculum and next year they are planning on raising the GPA to get into cox to a 3.5 if you are not a BBA scholar. Also adding about 5 new dorms and the George W Bush library will be open. They are trimming down Cox for the best students. I have had significant interaction with cox career management in classes and outside of classes and you can tell they are really trying to get big IB's to consistently recruit here and send kids to NY. They host SMU networking meet-ups in NY over the summer for people interning there. They also host resume reviews with actual employers almost bi-monthly. They also are offering free finance/IB interview prep sessions 1 on 1 with counselors (professors). I am biased because I go to SMU but that is my 0.02.
As a Texas A&M undergrad, I can honestly say McCombs is a superior business school. I have many friends who have graduated and gone on to big things in IB and PE. Not only is McCombs more of a "brand name", their alumni are a huge help and there are many of them.
You wouldn't be just another McCombs graduate student. I am not taking anything away from Cox either. They have some great programs and they do place students well also, but if I were you, McCombs is the way to go.
Plus, downtown Austin is a great place. The music and food is unbeatable in Texas in my opinion.
I think UT hands down.
I appreciate the objectivity, Dan. What I meant by the "just another UT grad" is that I would be 3rd or 4th quarter at McCombs, as I barely was accepted. I would be far from a star. I do believe I have a very reasonable chance of making it to the AAMC program, and thats why I used those stats. The only reason I would choose McCombs over Cox is the recruiting opportunities and nothing more. I don't like Austin, don't like the University, don't like the size, prefer not to spend another four years with my high school classmates (and that's what I would be doing, inevitably; same dorm, same fraternity, same social circles, vacations, etc.) I could, however, put up with it for four years if that means BB New York recruiting.
If anyone has data on recruiting from McCombs, that would be invaluable to this post. It would be helpful know how the less-than-stellar McCombs students fair in the New York finance scene.
If you barely got into McCombs, you probably won't be a superstar at SMU. Avg McCombs student > superstar at SMU Both places will have slim chances at nyc. There is also FAP at UT. Same thing as AAMC it looks like
Do you even lift bro? First off you should look up The Crescent for the local swag. Second I personally attended on campus interviews with RBC, Evercore, Lazard, GS and others all for placement out of Dallas. Lastly there are plenty of NY job listings on the SMU career placement site mustangtrak. I think youre straight mirin SMU physique...
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=smu+harlem+shake&mid=3EAC23AC9ED8ED…
Do what you want, but your best chance is at UT statistically speaking.
Pm me I can give you a look into UT placement this year. Also, look into FAP at UT
Business Honors + FAP at UT Austin makes you the most competitive for best opportunities out of UT-Austin.
Normal finance majors with mediocre GPAs do not have stellar opportunities.
UT. Why? More fun, better name recognition, better career placement and on campus recruiting.
Both are good business schools and both would give you opportunities to break in IB. Remember being in the right place at the right time and right environment play a big role too. UT is the clear winner when it comes to rankings, but your intuition knows best.
Here's a link to UT graduates' salary statistic: It's interesting that only 6% of them ended up in the Northeast. I imagine only the cream of the crop of Business Honors students are recruited straight to Wall Street.
http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/Career/Salary-Statistics.aspx
These are probably mostly Texans responding to the OP. SMU gets more than half of its students from out of state. UT is about 90% in state. I met about as many IBD folks in NYC from SMU as UT, despite the big size differences. Either way, it comes down to high grades, test scores and connections. BBA Scholars is fantastic. I know that program and they get excellent access to cool stuff.
Dallas MBA - SMU vs UTD (Originally Posted: 05/03/2011)
Hoping there are folks out there with some objective opinions about an SMU Cox MBA vs a UT Dallas MBA. I recently left the military and have a degree from a small liberal arts college in the NE. Dallas is my home now. Great city and hope to stay here for a long time. I would like to do consulting or perhaps supply chain management. Both schools have well-regarded MBA programs. SMU perhaps longer-standing reputation and UTD is a new up-and-comer. Any thoughts on how the programs compare or how a premier consulting firm might view the two programs? Thanks.
No top tier or even 2nd tier consulting firms recruit from UT Dallas. Bain, McKinsey, and Booz all come to SMU.
For supply chain, UTD might be better, but there is a big discrepancy between supply chain and consulting.
Bain, McKinsey, and Booz at Cox MBA? That would be surprising. But regardless, SMU is the better choice and it isn't close. Even if all they taught was finger painting and UTD flew down Michael Porter and the corpse of Milton Friedman (weekend at bernie's style), SMU would win. It's simply a much stronger brand in the area with a much stronger alumni base. You don't go to business school to learn.
http://www.cox.smu.edu/web/recruiters-mba/by-job-function
My knowledge may only speak from undergrad consulting recruting, but I imagine the MBA is competitive as well.
I figured that. Like my undergrad, SMU bba's do far better than their MBA's. I considered the program due to proximity and free $, but ultimately the things I heard about OCI turned me off.
Last summer Bain held an event for incoming MBA's and it happened to be in their Dallas office (for all of the US). The announcement was not even provided to Cox (I inquired).
Regardless, I stand by SMU in the situation posed by the OP. The program just places a greater emphasis on networking v. OCI.
Thanks. That is consistent with all I have heard thus far. UTD climbed to #40 in the latest US News & World Report rankings. SMU fell to #57. SMU clearly retains the networking and alumni edge. As a newcomer to Dallas it is hard for me to ignore UTD's climb. Makes me wonder about the rankings altogether (or at least in the instance of those two schools). Appreciate the thoughts.
the rankings mean very little outside the top 10 or so.... and even then they're just an approximation. Booth is consistently ranked above Harvard and Stanford on those things these days, for example, which is just silly.
You should go with general brand reputation vs rankings, because even grad/professional program reputations are strongly affected by undergraduate perception (look at Rice vs Jones, Yale vs SOM, Duke vs Fuqua). I'm surprised UTD's MBA is ranked higher than Cox.
Also agree that Booth being #1 over H/S/W is odd. And SMU's rank on the recent BW (I believe in the top 10) is even more reason not to put too much stock in rankings.
interested in UTD replies, having just moved to the area for Capital One management program MBA is my next step
SMU's price tag: #57 Southern Methodist University (Cox) Dallas, TX
Full-time: $43,990 per year Vs. #40 University of Texas--Dallas Richardson, TX
In-state, full-time: $11,000 per year
Is SMU really 4x better than UTD?
Depends on the alumni and network. People from SMU go into banking and finance year after year, can't say the same for UTD. Then again, I really don't know much about UTD.
^^^speaking mainly for U/G. Not much experience with their MBA.
Thoughts on MBA from: UTD / SMU / UT Austin (Originally Posted: 03/05/2016)
I've seen some old comparisons on here between UTD and SMU, but they were several years old and the MBA program seems to have grown some in that time. I'm evaluating a decision between full-ride+ ~$10k to UTD Jindal and $50k out-of-pocket for SMU Cox. Also, the UTD program ends in three semesters as opposed to SMU which ends in 4 (about 4-5 months earlier).
I am definitely going to live long-term in Dallas post-MBA. My main interest is MBB, or possibly something in Big 4, but at this point I want to pursue management consulting versus supply chain or something else. I am pretty confident in my ability to network here in Dallas. I'm also waiting to hear from UT McCombs, which would be about $70k out-of-pocket, without any money thrown my way.
From a cash flow perspective, it seems like an obvious choice, but my main concerns are that SMU has a more developed brand name and business network despite UTD's continued rise in the "rankings". I've read complaints about OCR at SMU, but on the surface it doesn't seem any worse than at UTD.
I know this community places a lot of emphasis on going to target schools, which makes UT McCombs the best choice, but living in Austin vs. Dallas would be a decent addition to cost-of-living expenses. Also, considering I know I'm going to Dallas, the prestige of McCombs might (depending on who you ask) not have as much of an impact.
My biggest motivator is ROI, and I am not certain to what extent the lifetime earnings post-MBA (unknown) will outweigh the initial out-of-pocket costs (known and substantial). That's my general dilemma. I am just looking for opinions from the peanut gallery.
Also, even though the type of work does seem very appealing, I'm not 100% set on consulting. The work/life balance might be hard for the significant other, so that will be a consideration, and I am open to alternative paths post-MBA - something along the lines of corporate development, general management.
If it were me, I would go McCombs, SMU, UTD in that order. Yes, you're paying more for the first 2, and while it's possible to get the same jobs out of UTD, it's much more likely from McCombs/SMU due to established OCR (McCombs) or Dallas based network (SMU). And in the context of a 40 year career where you'll cumulatively earn ~$4MM (conservatively), what's $60K?
Also you have to factor risk into your ROI. There is much more risk in securing a job you want at UTD than McCombs/SMU. IF you're able to secure that job, then your ROI is better there (like a junk bond). The ROI is lower at the other 2 schools because the risk is lower (like a treasury).
If you honestly think you have a shot at MBB, the order is UT>>>>>>>SMU, full stop. The recruiting and career opportunities at UT are light years ahead of the other two. There's no reason to go to SMU over UT, ESPECIALLY because you are at a similar amount out of pocket for each.
If you are more open to career paths, the conversation shifts between paying for your MBA and getting paid to go. Obviously less debt is better, but you need to honestly assess your career prospects. UTD average salary is between 80-90K, while it's 100K at SMU and 113K at UT (also UT median). Also, UTD is a bit less forthcoming about its salary statistics, which is always a red flag for me when comparing school programs.
More importantly (potentially), mean consulting salary at SMU is only 104K, while it's 130K at UT, a clear signal about which school has people going to MBB/Big 4. Didn't see it at all for UTD.
The feedback I've heard from UTD regarding their salary is that their MBA student body has a much broader range of experience which skews the data. Also, they state in some areas they have few students, and because of certain guidelines/rules within the reporting industry, you have to have at least 4 students in a category to report high/median/low to avoid divulging personally identifiable data.
I did notice the difference in mean consulting salaries for SMU vs. UT, and found it to be quite illuminating.
If you are 100% locked in to Dallas then SMU is your best bet in my opinion. Don't listen to the people that say its McCombs or bust for MBB. If you're at SMU and are decent at networking you will have the same opportunities as those from McCombs given that you're only recruiting in Dallas. Now if you were trying to recruit for Houston, New York, or LA, my answer would be different. This is coming from a McCombs grad.
Only go to UTD if you want to work for F500's in the Dallas area. And I mean that with all my life. DO NOT GO TO UTDALLAS thinking you'll get into MBB, IB or anything overly awesome. I mean its possible and they place in BB IBD the occasional student and MBB the occasional student, but don't get your MBA there. Go to SMU, but only if you can't get into McCombs.
SMU has a solid reputation within Dallas, but outside the metro area, it doesn't stand out as much. UT on the other hand has great national recognition. Your plans may be to stay in DFW now, but 10 years from now, things could change. I'd go for UT if you can get in.
Just curious, how do people view Baylor University (MBA) among the other MBA programs in DFW? (TCU, SMU, UTD, etc.) Even though Baylor is outside of the DFW.
Somewhere between SMU and UTD, probably closer to UTD. While Baylor has a decent brand in Texas, the MBA program isn't really that well known. It would have zero recognition outside of Texas.
Everyone's said it before in this thread, but UT Austin > SMU > UTD. If your goal is 100% management consulting, I can guarantee you that you won't get looks from MBB if you attend UTD. SMU is a step up, but a lot of the OCR that they do is specifically for undergraduates, as far as I know.
For example, on the recruiting section of Bain's website, they do have a page for SMU students with contact info of alumni, but they have completely separate pages for UT undergraduates and McCombs MBA students. A quick LinkedIn search of DFW MBB employees shows only SMU undergraduates versus MBA students elsewhere (UT Austin, Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford, Columbia).
In short, given the three choices (even factoring in cost), McCombs all the way. Disclaimer: I'm a grad student at SMU finishing up my MS in Finance that did my undergraduate at UTD, so I believe I have a pretty good feel for the opportunities available to you. SMU will take a lot more networking for MBB, but McCombs gives you the greatest shot and flexibility in case you don't end up in Dallas. But if we're talking about Big 4 or smaller firms like Sendero (based in Dallas), then SMU has plenty of opportunities for you.
Not much else to add to what has already been said. McCombs all the way, if you can get in.
I have never understood why prospective MBA students are so concerned about insignificant (in the long run) differences in the cost of attendance between disparate schools. There's really no comparing McCombs and UTD. Coming out of McCombs, there's a chance you'll be earning $80k/year more than you would have if you attended UTD. The difference is average base salary is over $30k between the two schools...so, on average, you'll make the difference back in under 3 years. Pretty good payback there. I'd invest in an asset that provided that level of return.
UTD MBA (Originally Posted: 03/20/2012)
I am looking into UTD and SMU graduate school. I understand UTD is becoming a more recognized school in the area, but I still feel SMU gives you a better entry into the global workforce (opposed to UTD which might just be for local firms). Does anyone have any experience in what kind of position you can be expecting graduating from UTD with an MBA with focus on Finance?
Also would it make sense to work for a while and then look into the SMU Executive MBA instead? What kind of work experience is necessary to be accepted into that program?
Any advice would be appreciated.
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