Suicide on The Street
The pressure to succeed in life is hard to measure. The one thing we know about Wall Street is that there are no crevices to hide from it. Hundred hour work weeks, pipsqueak VPs sending you for coffee and a life in a cage while your compatriots party their twenties away are enough to chisel frown lines on anyone's forehead. This is a life choice that I certainly can't hate, as I do believe in a correlation between suffering and success. Any pursuit is admirable if it is genuine and causes no harm to anyone but you and those you love the most.
This is why today I am bringing up a subject that nobody likes to talk or think about. Suicide. This is a very high stress game folks. Some of you are currently learning the hard way what many before you did in the same fashion. That is why the subject of mental health is one worth bringing up and mulling over seriously. The story of Jared Dillian, former trader at Lehman Brothers is a fine example. Things can spin out of control quickly, the only prevention is preparation.
With all of our talk about ambition and goals, we easily forget what it takes to get there. Investment banking today resembles a great many career paths from America's recent past. What I mean to say is that it is dwindling. There are less jobs, less opportunity, less deals out there and just as many (if not more)monkeys dreaming about ivory towers and bezel encrusted watches. The pressure and the stress levels are higher and will only continue to rise. Things are going to be this way for quite a while, if not permanently into the future.
Without giving you the routine about talking to people, eating right and sleeping well (not possible), I am just reminding you to keep track of your own pulse. The bad vibes can build up quickly and many of you will at some point find yourself face-to-face with the bottle, your jaw supported by the bar and a miserable fucker looking back at you in the mirror. Consciously focus on never letting it get to that point.
Even back in the 90's when a real live chimpanzee could pull deals out of his ass, I had buddies Wall Street over who were killing themselves over the stress, pressure and bad vibes that often come with the territory. The only real defense is realizing that none of this is all that serious. The world will keep turning and so will the money. You don't have to become the next power broker today. Sometimes, you are better off not being that rock star with endless exit ops.
Think about it. Think about Dillian. Think about all the guys whose names are not mentioned but who have been through it. Think about the future...and actually making it there.
Great post.
simple solution: you dont like the stress, get out.
Slightly off topic, but I flipped through the book at the store today and it's not half bad. It's something like the modern day version of Liar's Poker from a trader's perspective. Something that really stuck out was the part where he mentioned everyone goes into this thinking they'll be the next BSD like Soros or Moore or Dalio, but most of the people who are even fortunate enough to get their foot in the door wind up as bottom-feeding snails.
Great post Midas.
Midas, I think this ties well with your post on Murphy's law. Always have a contingency plan at hand when shit hits the fan.
Anytime the topic of Wall St suicide comes up I am compelled to mention Phillip Heymeyer, a cotton trader who was a contemporary of many of the early macro traders. I believe he was actually Louis Bacon's boss when, in 1979, he blew his brains out after a string of losing trades. Below is an article about him from NY Mag....hope the link works...
http://books.google.com/books?id=lecCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA46&dq=hehmeyer&hl=en…
hahaha great photo midas
Its important to keep perspective of what is really important, and save for rainy days, which might become years. A lot of us wrap our identities in being successful and having a big salary, a title, and the status that go along with it. It's all rather silly really- in most areas, the rug can be pulled out from under you in a second, and these days there is little to no guarantee that you will be able to just pick up and move to another bank in a similar role.
Live way below your means and you won't have a hard fall when sour times come. Take that money, bank it, avoid debt at all costs, and then you can walk away from the street at any time without resorting to a bottle of pills. You know what's more balling than a benz in the driveway? Still getting a good night's sleep when you lose your job or get a donut for a bonus because some douchebag a row over from you skirted risk controls and blew up your division.
Ex-Lehman Banker Commits Suicide (Originally Posted: 11/08/2008)
Hi, everyone, just found out from a friend that a former aquaintance, former classmate, ex-lehman banker commited suicide yesterday. This guy was in his thirties, lost everything as many have on wall street.
My point of this posting is to say that no job loss or financial loss is worth killing yourself for. At the end of the day its only a job and its only money. As long as one has his/her health, everything else can eventually take care of itself.
worst case scenario, I'd probably take a one way ticket to hawaii or europe, and live as a bartender for a few years.
wow, im sorry to hear that. There was an article in the wsj the other day about a BS banker who committed suicide by over dosing and jumping out of his window...this is just crazy.
my best wishes to him and his family.
if by banker you mean a BS employee in equity research compliance (i.e. back office), then you're right on the money. in addition, the man had serious, recurring psychological problems. i'm sick and tired of the media sensationalizing things. what happened to him could have happened to any unstable person who happened to lose his/her job.
compblue, I dont think it really matters what ur position in life is, when tragedy strikes, it can take anyone. Many things have to occur b4 one loses it but it shouldnt lead to killing urself. BTW, this lehman guy was a senior VP or something in lehmans M&A division. Heard his "trophy" wife left him for greener pastures as soon as he lost his job, but who knows
i would say this. investment banking really needs to have more seminars on the treatment of analysts. The ones that were analyst promotes really do understand the grind and are more understanding. The associate promotes or laterals from corporate development may not really understand or care what goes on at the analyst or intern level. When your interning, clearly your goal is to get the offer and you do think it's the end of the world if you don't get it. We've all been there and it doesn't matter that you may not want to work there in the future, but if you can secure the offer, you can go through full time recruiting with a breeze, dangling the offer.
On another note, I don't think everyone is cut out for investment banking. That's why there is the internship. I mean I've seen interns wanting the job so bad they pull all nighters fixing stupid shit.
dude, you bumped a 5 year old thread with a response that isn't really related to the post. You started bringing up analyst treatment when the post is about a guy in his thirties, way past analyst age.
I think it might be troll?
way to revive a 5 year old thread
my bad this was related to the wrong thread lol
Adolf Merckle Suicide (Originally Posted: 01/07/2009)
By now everyone has heard that Adolf Merckle committed suicide yesterday, so this current bear market has claimed another high-profile victim. He didn't just quietly take his own life, locked in his office like de la Villehuchet, escaping with some dignity. This 74-year old guy threw himself in front of a train.
This is an existential question I've struggled with my whole career. Maybe you guys can help me out. How much is enough?
If I found myself on a planet with 6.7 billion of my closest friends, and I was ranked in the Top 100 of them in terms of wealth (he was ranked #94 in the world in 2008), I'm pretty sure not much could get me down. But, obviously, that was not the case.
I know that the guy making $15,000 a year thinks all of his problems would be solved if he only made $30,000, but anyone making $30,000 a year would tell you that's not the case. And your average peasant would be tickled pink if he hit a scratch-off lottery ticket for $50,000, so I'm definitely not interested in his opinion. But what do you guys think? Do you get this guy killing himself?
After I read the explanation offered by de la Villehuchet's brother, I kinda get that one. He was just an old-school dude who felt suicide was his duty for letting his clients down. I certainly don't agree, but at least I can get my head around his way of thinking. But Merckle has me stumped.
I'd really like to hear some opinions from people that have been in the business a while and those just getting started. How far are you willing to reach for the brass ring? Any thoughts?
Perhaps he was mentally instable, and the guy is old. Finding yourself a part of a $50 billion Ponzi scheme is pretty mind numbing. He simply may have gone insane.
I dunno I am just as baffled by Steven Good, CEO of a Chicago real-estate auction firm. The guy had plenty of cash, a wife and kids and people who admired and respected him. Its funny that you raise this issue as I have been contemplating similar issues lately (sans suicide) as I begin to come into some legitimate sums of money. Is money the root of all evil? Is man inherently evil? Is it worth chasing paper at the expense of enjoying life? Shits deep
I can sort of understand.
Everything Merckle created for himself was falling apart. Volkswagen got swept by Porsche, and Ratiopharm, the pride of his family for forty years, would likely have to be sold off. Whether or not the guy is still rich, and definitely can survive, he's lost everything he's worked so long at.
Plus, with speculation in Volkswagen stock being the main reason for losing money, he lost it all in one go. He's powerless, and has no control over losing control. Everything is meaningless.
His son was also the head of Ratiopharm, and Merckle would've had to give the company up -he let down his family, too.
He didn't need money for anything anymore, and he already had luxury goods. Feeling good for him meant looking good to the family and running his company. He invested his entire life in it. It's like building a family with six kids, then suddenly five of them die in 9/11 or something you didn't know about/couldn't influence.
Sure, you have one left, but almost everything you've tried to build falls apart. The companies weren't just a financial investment for him, it was pretty personal.
Not to say I would've killed myself, I'm just speculating where he's coming from. I'm one of the $30,000 family income peasants.
comparing $ to losing kids in 9/11 is quite a stretch...you should probably look for a better analogy there man
Word.
I don't have an excuse, my bad. But Merckle's spent his entire life in there, yeah? For him, being happy is running the business. He doesn't need money anymore, but if he beats earnings estimates -it's validation. He's comfortable with himself, he can brag to his kids.
Maybe a better comparison is coming home to your family you not only just got laid off, but they'll have to give up their jobs, too. How are you going to feel?
Better comparison would be to those Japanese Businessmen who are the only providers in their families who get laid off. A lot of them hide it from their families and will just put on a suit everyday and go to a park. The suicide rate among that demographic is actually unusually high I think. It's mainly an issue of pride and sense of their purpose and who they are in the world. If they lose that, to them it's the same as losing everything.
People need to remember that.
I wonder what John Paulson would do if one of his balls-out bets suddenly turned sour. I really can't understand why he's still working after last year's killing.
people like paulson is not working for making the extra bucks but rather for pride...
interesting topic...
Sorry if this sounds crass, but it sounds like Merckle didn't properly hedge against his pride getting wounded.
I kind of understand too, being on the verge of liquidation of something you spent your whole life building is quite scary, and at his age he couldn't start over! This shows that doing a business is tough, it requires balls, to get through a downturn when there is no income, no salary, just stress and lots of hope that things will work out.
Hope the next billionaire who is thrown into this mess deals with it more positively.
What is going on at JP Morgan? What is up with all the suicides in 2014? (Originally Posted: 02/22/2014)
I'm not sure if it's just the media sensationalizing this stuff now or there have been a string of suicides (at Upenn and now JPM) resulting from people following the lead of the first victims, but this is disturbing to say the least.
Jan. 26: London police found William Broeksmit, a 58-year-old former senior executive at Deutsche Bank AG, dead in his home after an apparent suicide.
Jan. 27: Tata Motors managing director Karl Slym died after falling from a hotel room in Bangkok in what police said could be possible suicide. Slym, 51, had attended a board meeting of Tata Motors’ Thailand unit in the Thai capital and was staying with his wife in a room on the 22nd floor of the Shangri-La hotel. Hotel staff found his body on Sunday on the fourth floor, which juts out above lower floors. Jan. 28: a 39-year-old JPMorgan employee died after falling from the roof of the European headquarters of JPMorgan in London. The man, Gabriel Magee, was a vice president in the investment bank’s technology department, a source told WSJ.
January 29: Russell Investments’ Chief Economist Mike Dueker was found dead in an apparent suicide. Police said it appears Dueker took his own life by jumping from a ramp near the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Tacoma, Wash., AP reported. According to Bloomberg, Dueker, 50, had been missing since Jan. 29, and friends and law enforcement had been searching for him.
The week before, a U.K.-based communications director at Swiss Re AG died. The cause of death has not been made public.
February 3: 37-year-old JPMorgan Chase & Co executive director who died from unknown causes Feb. 3 appears to be the latest in a series of untimely deaths among finance workers and business leaders around the world in the past three weeks. Ryan Crane, a JPMorgan Chase & Co. employee who in a 14-year career at the New York-based bank rose to executive director of a unit that trades blocks of stocks for clients, died in his Stamford, Connecticut, home.
February 18: 33-year old JPMorgan forex trader is the latest in a string of suicides to take his life in Hong Kong.
Is it just a sad coincidence that all of these tragedies are happening so close together or does one suicide in an organization make a 2nd and 3rd more likely? I don't know much about mental illness, but it would seem to me that they are not isolated incidents.
scary stuff - my prayers go out to all the families.
Seems like something big is coming up.
I'd agree with you if it was something more centralized, but what is odd is that the tragedies are all across different divisions, countries, etc... maybe these just been hidden in the past?
I posted a thread about this and got called a zero hedge conspiracy theorist.
Something big is going to be happening soon...like another 2008 but probably worse. Not sure if it will be this spring or summer but things are definitely brewing.
I feel sorry for you.
JP Morgan has something like a quarter million people that work there. For a fair comparison, you'd probably need to compare it to a town of the same size. Not trying to downplay this, but suicides happen everywhere and it is extraordinarily unlikely that the employer/school are what's causing this. When you have a huge pool of people, you are more likely to find examples of things like suicide.
Just as a point of reference, the suicide rate in the US is 12 per every 100,000 people. So, you would expect something like 30 suicides per year at a place the size of JP Morgan.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
JPM has a large amount of employees. Several hundred thousand. This is about the size of a mid size city. Now imagine everyone in this city was constantly stressed about work. They were constantly stressed about performance and making money. Imagine every single resident was under pressure. All of these people are in positions where there is a considerable amount of stress. I am not surprised this is happening. As for UPenn, its a school with a rigorous course load. Just like finance, students are expected to perform and have a ton of stress on them.
be careful what you prioritize. you don't want to be 50 and realize you had it wrong.
Couldn't have said it better. SB to you. No matter the reason, it is terribly sad to hear of one ending their own life. The thing that brought most of us to this forum, you can't take it with you in the end.
You're right. I don't want to be 50.
This sounds like it's leading up to something, but I wouldn't call it unless I saw the suicides for 2013 and 2012.
The constant bashing of their place of employment by the gov. and the media probably isn't good for their self esteem.
Had no idea about all these. To everyone saying that statistically you should see about 30/100,00 according to US measures...yeah, maybe. But taking your sample size as all JPM employees...they aren't really your typical citizens of wherever they happen to be. So, among all JPM employees, I feel your expected rate per 100k would be much lower than 30. Just an opinion. I have a feeling that the majority of suicides in the US are among very low income segments of the population, unemployed, low education, etc.
Given the amount of stress, I'd actually guess it would be higher. Money isn't everything.
Total employees according to wikipedia:
Goldman Sachs: 32,600 Morgan Stanley: 56,500 JP Morgan: 255,000
The US suicide rate is on average 12 per 100,000 annually. Rather than JP Morgan doing badly, GS and MS are doing really well. No word of suicides in recent memory. A good place to work if you don't want to kill yourself.
The lesson is to stay on the ground floor.
That's why I work for building security..
That 255,000 includes JP Morgan CHASE retail and commercial banking employees. In terms of their i-banking division, the amount of employees they have should be well within the GS to MS range. What makes these suicides unique, is that they are all from the JP Morgan investment banking division, and are mid tier employees who look like they would have otherwise promising careers. We're not talking about random retail bank tellers from idaho at chase offing themselves now.
There have been no suicides at JT Marlin this year. Just sayin'.
On a serious note, prayers to the families. Suicide is certainly difficult to make sense of.
What a shame. Seems like the finance stress-related death/suicide bug is throughout all ages (Moritz Erhardt -> these middle-aged guys -> Zurich CFO). I am hesitant to say that they are all 100% linked to stress/greed/over-ambition/etc, but they all had the chance to get out of the kitchen.. More to life than the green faces.
.
This is called selection bias, people commit suicides every day. Nothing is going to happen.
for someone who may want to be open about these being isolated cases to a specific workplace or industry or any community or group or whatever perhaps it could be "social proof" ..that guy did xyz so i will do xyz. that guy believes xyz i will believe xyz. etc
So difficult to indicate true reasons of such cases.
I think that even if there is nothing ordinary in it (as Arti says 'people commit suicides every day') still there IS some reason these cases are so highlighted in media recently
If I were to guess I would say it's just the stress that comes with the job that can lead to depression. Working those 80-100 hour workweeks week after week for years - only to realize what? You've given up your 20's for a fat paycheck and some nice suits. You've gained weight from the stress, balding, no romantic prospects, no much to talk to others about except topics that relate to your job.
That lifestyle isn't for everyone - it can really suck.
JPM employees are not very clever with taking their exit opportunities.
normally i enjoy jking but...this isn't an issue to joke about - all it takes is a 100hr work week and a negative personal event to push you over the edge
http://intellihub.com/8th-international-banker-die-month-jumps-building…
There is no 'conspiracy'...I don't see how the actions of a tech VP in London could be related to a forex trader in Hong Kong nor would they be privy to some secret info that others wouldn't.
I like how 95% of these comments are copy and paste of all the top comments on reddit including OP
One night in Bangkok and the world's your oyster The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free You'll find a God in every golden cloister.
One night in Bangkok makes a hard man humble Not much between despair and ecstasy One night in Bangkok and the tough guys tumble Can't be too careful with your company I can feel the Devil walking next to me
Read more: Murray Head - One Night In Bangkok Lyrics | MetroLyrics
links wont work, http://www.businessinsider.com/why-wall-street-bankers-committ-suicide-…]
Scary
The Buddhist got it right, except they were wrong about the reincarnation thing. Death is the abolition of the self, which means abolition of want/need. You are freed from wants/needs as you don't exist. As for those left behind - they'll get over it when they die, because they'll cease to exist at that point too.
Why don't I commit suicide then? I had an Irish Catholic upbringing and I get off on my own suffering and self-flagellation.
Poor understanding of statistics is poor.
If your in the industry, going to school or whatever you should consider learning the signs of suicide and suicide prevention if you haven't already. Most of the time there are signs and he/she could be reaching out to you and you wouldn't even know. In the beginning of my military enlistment I never used to pay attention to suicide prevention classes till it was a well known military problem. I, along with many of my colleagues had the mentality that it'll never be an issue for me so who cares, It might not be for you, but you never know about the people that surround you on a daily basis. Take it for whatever it's worth, but you could possibly save a life. Very sad stories nonetheless.
The Suicide Trend Unfortunately Continues (Originally Posted: 03/12/2014)
http://nypost.com/2014/03/12/trader-throws-self-in-front-of-train-in-fi…
The trend of reporting suicides continues.
Suicide rates, murder rates, school shooting rates: these things are relatively constant over time. The reporting of these things changes. Look at who's doing the reporting, ask yourself what their overall focus/agenda is, and then you see things more clearly. It doesn't mean these things aren't horrible: they are.
But ask yourself why Malaysia fishing boat slaves and the 25 million human slaves around the world get no coverage.
Then, ask yourself if the news really is out to make the world a better place or report actual news....or if they're making a buck running with a story.
This.
And posting a link on a site with like a million members isn't helping the cause, chief.
That's a valid point, and I know the economics of news stations and how they turn profit. That is by selling fear and articles or news coverage that will generate revenue through advertisements by making things suspenseful.
News stories about Malaysia fishing boat slaves or even african genecide doesn't get us to tune in or listen long enough for the ads to generate enough revenue, that is why they get "no coverage".
Human gullibility never ceases to amaze me.
They shared trading space with us -- small niche pink sheet trading shop, maybe ten fifteen guys tops. Not sure how the profits had been and how the divorce affected the guy but I wouldn't be surprised if those just drilled him down. Hoping it wasn't the guy I'd talk to everyday on the elevator, age seems appropriate for him. RIP.
What I find interesting is the difference in the method of choice between men and women. Men seem to have a vague or very clear idea that if they blow their head off with a shotgun or jump out of a window of a tall building or a bridge it will create all sorts of extra chaos and exposure. While women prefer to chug down a bottle of wine filled with sleeping pills.
any evidence of this ?
Sorry, comment got screwed up because the "add comment" feature isn't fully supported by my workstation.
Decades of sociology/psych research have shown that the majority of people attempting suicide are women. The majority that pull it off are men. Why? Women take pills and cut themselves. Guys use much more lethal means, like guns and explosives. Google it. While some overarching theory in social sciences is hard to quantify, the data sources that modern theory pulls off of are very detailed.
ahhh interesting makes sense - will take ur word for it
deleted
I think the bottom line here is that the media is making a buck on painting a grim picture of the state of morale in the finance industry. They're late to the party, people were way more bummed out four years ago. I don't have verification yet, but I'd venture that suicide rates within finance workers are not much different than the general population in a statistically significant amount. If I find a good study, I'll post here.
Another banker suicide (Originally Posted: 07/16/2009)
Before Anjool the suicide of the ABN Amro CFO went largely unoticed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6600606.ece
There was also the Adolf Merckle suicide around the end of 2008 - he hitched a ride on the front of a locomotive. The sad thing is with his suicide is that although he lost EUR 500m shorting VW shares, his son seems to have succesfully refinanced both HeidelbergCement and its holding company VEM so all was not lost. Probably would have still been a billionaire.
People like that with their inside circle of connections should readily be able to make most that money back. It seems that Wall Street Execs become all to familiar with laziness and forget what got them to the top in the first place: hard work...
True, and even take a look at some posts here circa 2007. There was a mentality that if you went to an Ivy, then your dues were already paid and doors should just open themselves for you and never shut.
Mark Madoff Suicide (Originally Posted: 12/11/2010)
Looks like Madoff's son decided to check out on the two-year anniversary of his dad's downfall. Hung himself with a dog leash from a pipe in his apartment:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/bernie_madoff_son_andrew_f…
The whole scheme was awful, but I don't know if I'd actually wish death upon this guy. In any case, I guess some people are happy to see Madoff spend the rest of his life in prison and lose a son.
Crazy.
If the sons actually did not have knowledge of their father's scheme, this is a sad sad story.
I wonder how Bernie's feeling now that not only did he defraud investors but killed his own son in the process.
I do not have any remorse. Suicide should never become an option in ones mind. He should of thought about the ramifications before he decided to snitch on his father to the FBI. Its a mans world and pressure bust pipes. How selfish, now his 2 year old will have this hanging over his head as he grows up.
Yeah said it.... fuck it, you can call me an asshole for my opinion.
Wall St. Suicide: Comment on society (Originally Posted: 07/12/2012)
Recently, a man committed suicide and it appears the primary reason is that he lost a significant amount of wealth (maybe everything?) during the financial crisis, at least according to the article. This is disturbing that he would feel that was necessary.
The comments posted by people celebrating his death because he worked on Wall Street is disturbing beyond belief. If you aren't working here yet, this is what you have to look forward to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/19/charles-hopper-lehman-brothers…
Thoughts?
EDIT: I thought I would provide you with some of the comments on his suicide:
"I hope it hurt."
"Good riddance!"
"The rich call the poor people losers.That's why they commit suicide when they lose their money."
"Finally, for once, someone on Wall Street did the right thing."
"It's a good start..."
Obama's fault?
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