Andy note: This comment was originally posted in
Your "Target Schools" lists are outdated and off-base and wanted to open this topic up for debate again. Below are Blackhat's thoughts, which he later added "Obviously it's exaggerated as most of my comments on banking are, given my bias, but still think there is some sort of effect there." Also see Bankerella's post What banker careers REALLY look like: The DATA for some actual #'s related to this theory.
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.
That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)
Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.
Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.
Go Aggies!
When will MY alma mater have good banking representation? 'Sniff
Not sure about this, I think a Tufts grad would still prefer a HYP grad over a Tufts grad. This probably applies to most state schools as well. I totally agree with you about ND and Georgetown, they aren't that prestigious but they think that their on top of the world due to religious affiliation and businessweek ranking in the case of ND and due to GTown's advantages when it comes to location, Private status and Top 25 ranking (overrated factors IMO). I wouldn't want to work at a bank overweight ND/Georgetown either..
OOO!! That's why banks have done so poorly since 2006, because there are less Penn grads and more ND/Georgetown grads... And nothing to do the poor economy or other externalities..
So, assuming this trend even exists, you're arguing that BBs are becoming mediocre (the post title) because the educational demographic of the senior bankers is becoming less "prestigious" than it once was? I find it hard to believe that the absence of these top target kids is actually hurting the IB business. bankers aren't curing AIDS - they're either selling their services (senior) or they're crunching numbers using 4th grade math (junior.) Two big reasons targets are even targets are 1) there's a more concentrated pool of talent for recruiting and 2) nepotism. This business doesn't need Harvard to survive.
How much do you think quality of output differs between Gtown and ND vs. Harvard and Princeton, etc.? Doubt it is really that substantial
I know kids who go to HYPS and kids who go to ND/Georgetown type schools and for the "middle class" white/asian public school kids the difference is unreal in terms of intelligence and competence. It is even noticeable among the people I know who were admitted to Harvard Econ versus the "lower ivies" like dartmouth, columbia and brown. I'm not trying to put down either school, because the top 10% of them are likely equivalent or better than HYP, but on average in terms of # of kids who are smart and competent (2400 SAT) and the # of kids with musical, mathematical and artistic talent (Julliard caliber, National Olympiad finalists, astute painters) to go along with their grades test scores murders what the typical non HYP admit-tee has done or can do (obviously with exceptions and obviously accounting for the kids who luckily manage to slip through the cracks of admission). In terms of # of upper class/famous unqualified students, its pretty similar between all of these top schools so I think that factor is a wash.
but I do agree a bit with your theory, and it does make sense - I just don't think it's a dominant factor
All this coming from a former drug addict. LMAO.
I'll excuse the kid for acting like a 4 year old if he goes to GTown or ND and was dumb enough to somehow take this seriously. But let's not say he won't amount to anything, I'm sure he'll have lots of fantastic opportunities in the future once people see what a great person he is. And it's nice to see that he didn't hesitate to ask me questions and for advice in the past despite what a burnout druggy I am. I'm glad he still gave me a shot.
My thoughts exactly
and your counterarguments are fucking great. really, good job. I was unaware that people that used to be addicted to drugs can no longer make valid points ever again.
I don't know his story, but you guys sound like grade-A tools
The best students from the top colleges are now opting for tech, startups, MBB consulting, high-frequency trading, quant hedge funds, certain grad programs such as yale law and HBS 2+2, over banking jobs. I guess this has been true for a while, but at least back in 2005-2007 banking was seen as glorious, so there were students turning down MBB or deferring entrance to yale or harvard law to do a 2-year banking stint. Finance has definitely lost its luster since 2008.
I never did banking, so forgive me if this question seems dumb. Can you really tell which analysts are superstars and which ones are mediocre? Aren't the analysts all doing grunt work on excel? What sets them apart?
This is off topic, but for some reason notre dame and duke produce the dochiest alums I have ever met. Don't know what it is about those schools, but they are infected with the douche virus.
The HFT bubble will pop soon too.
I agree with this. I think HFT is sort of a joke, but it has attracted some insanely smart math/CS guys from the top colleges since like 2005 or so. And they have made tons of money at a very young age, numbers that put banking or consulting to shame.
HFT is a single one of many strategies in the quant trading spectrum. May I ask if by HFT you refer to just HFT or to quant trading? 'Cause I can tell you, it's not a bubble (that's already popped IMO) and it's here to stay.
Just checked out that thread. Other than the "medicore" schools like ND/GTown, the other top represented schools are Penn, Cambridge, Cornell, Duke, MIT, Dartmouth. Those aren't mediocre schools...
I'll quickly address this before it gets too much monkey shit and Bankerella-esque blowback...
I said this on some thread where someone was trying to argue that Notre Dame and Georgetown had overtaken all the Ivies in banking, and my argument was that I agree that over time that will be the case in terms of numbers, but it's because those schools are getting targeted more and more thanks to their alumni staying in banking longer and longer, not that they're consistently showing more success than others. On average, a Harvard kid will probably be smarter, more capable, productive, etc. than a Notre Dame grad or whatever... and if anyone wants to dispute that, there's no way to present evidence for either side so I don't blame you.
But I'm still not seeing that kind of numbers increase from these guys in related industries like HF, PE, etc. so don't run out saying it's the end of the world for the current "targets" and that these guys are the new #1's.
So which schools do you most often see in HF/PE/etc, based on your experience?
Undergrad: harvard, penn, princeton, columbia, dartmouth, duke, nyu stern MBA: harvard, wharton, booth, columbia, stanford
I agree with this. Since the top talent from the ivies are not going into banking in large numbers as they used to, banks have to dig into schools like notre dame/georgetown/ut austin/michigan, etc. Of course those are all fine schools, nothing wrong with them. But in general, it's foolish to say that notre dame students in general are as talented as harvard students. Notre dame alums, in their state of delusion, believe otherwise.
One of the most talented young people at Blackstone private equity, is a notre dame undergrad alum, however.
I think within 5 years banks will have to resort to recruiting from violent street gangs. Banks will be lucky to get any kid with no felonies and a GED.
Banking in the 80's, everything comes full circle.
I'll say - Blackhat was right about one thing . This is the most douchebaggy and pompous way of making his point
i don't think it's because the top talent all went to the buyside and the mediocre ones stayed at banks and are now in positions to recruit. a lot of people i've run into who are still at banks seem to have very strong school pedigree. they will be trying to recruit students from the good schools they went to. it's probably the students that aren't as keen to join.
i'm at a "target" that got a lot stronger for recruiting post-crisis, an effect that i believe is unwarranted given the level of talent that goes here. we are now one of the best represented schools at one or more of GS/MS/JPM. my guess is that the high-caliber candidates from H/P/S that would take those spots in years past have recognized that there are better opportunities out there for them, and consequently the spots they left are now open to students at schools that used to play second fiddle in recruiting.
Did someone say something about blackhat is an asswipe loser who thinks hes da shit because he has built models and made slides for a living for a couple of years?
No? Ok, my bad
It makes sense that students from the top schools are looking elsewhere given that the analyst role continues to require 100 hour weeks, but now for less pay and arguably less prestige than in the past. GS's announcement that it's not providing bonuses will probably make some of the top students consider other jobs in consulting or industry. Let's face it, banking is brutal in terms of hours, lost friendships and personal relationships. If the pay is not there, it's completely not worth it to give up one's early 20s so the banks are having to look at a larger pool for candidates.
Pardon my ignorance, but can someone please explain to me in what way, shape, or form "talent" is required in banking. Talent is painting. Talent is playing the piano. Talent is memorizing the first 200 numbers of pi. Falling asleep on the shitter in between moving paper from one side of the desk to the other, and working backwards to build fantasy financial models is NOT talent. Say the whoremongering from top school's is because people want to help their alma maters, etc., but please, for the love of God let's not play this "talent" game. Everyone here is far too smart to ACTUALLY believe that shit. Kinda funny how the financial field prides itself on allocation of capital, while simultaneously being responsible for the biggest mis-allocation of intellectual capital ever. Btw, this isn't directed at any1- just a rant.
"former" ?????
Blackhat your such a fucking moron.
The only reason why 2006 was good was due to the housing bubble, idiot. Wasn't good because some English Major from Harvard whose dad happend to be VP was an IB analyst.
OP what was the point of this thread? Trolling for comments? Bored at work and have the desire to see if your WSO reputation has given you the ability to post useless content (read: crap) that people will see as profound insight all the while satisfying their need to be a part of an on-line "community"? Be better than this.
It's generated a lot of heat Andy. Light - err not so much
I'll give my opinion on this matter. I think there's talent in any university of the US, heck, the world. This thinking that students of the Ivies are superior is false in a sense. I think the Ivies have a higher concentration of bright students. After all, they only accept the best candidates. Whereas colleges like mine in Puerto Rico have more relaxed admissions. So in that sense, yes. But I know for a fact that my friend was more intelligent than his girlfriend that studied engineering in MIT. He went to Boston almost every month to see her. He was crazy in love with her. Now they are married. He told me how she helped her out in classes and stuff. So my school probably have far less talent in each graduating class, but if you select the best of my college and the best of the Ivies, they go toe to toe.
Not everyone grows wanting to go to an Ivy school. I did not know anything about it. I just wanted to go to a university close enough to home that I could afford. Once I moved to the states for work, I could see how my peers are obsessed about the school their 5 year old go. They say such and such school has good admissions to Harvard, etc. And I understand why it is. It is because of HR in those companies thinking that Harvard is the best of the best. And I think it is wrong that some companies don't even consider candidates from other schools. I am pretty sure they have passed over candidates that would have been superior to the ones they accepted. There is intelligent people in all parts of the world and over all the classes, poor and rich. I guess it is easier for HR to have the admissions office of universities do their job.
BlackHat -- I think Brady just posted from your account. Hahahahaha
forget it
The OP is only 100% right. Bear Stearns learned their lesson that "not very smart, but very hungry" doesn't cut it in the 21st century environment. Not today.
Yeah, yeah, yeah- there are some Villanova grads or Penn State grads that are alright. Sure. But on average- the average HYPS student (who typically won't be able to get an IBD job due to intense competition from their school) is about equivalent in raw ability to the 95th percentile at Texas A&M.
Any way, Bears Stearns fell because some one had to be made an example of, also summed(this means in addition to you non target ****) not having any friends at the table.
You're the only person I've ever encountered that's actually thought this enough to react to "HYPS" like that... I hope you're just joking, but I'm not good at picking things like that up on the internet.
I'd rather go to Stanford over HYP.
If you cut through the 100 foot layer of trolling , Blastoise has a point - Stanford's undergraduate student body cares very little about Investment Banking. Thus IB kids from Stanford will know less about and be less passionate about it than Harvard , Yale or Princeton. Most of the BB's there recruit either for S&T or for quantitative strategies.
That would be true if Bear & Stearns was the only Wall Street bank to fail during the crisis. It was not the only one. What about Lehman Brothers. What about Merryl Lynch (had to be bought by BoA to be saved). AIG was also saved. So no correlation here with the practice of Bear of hiring hungry and smart candidates from different backgrounds.
The only thing with Bear that I can't understand is how can you have a guy at the helm that periodically leaves to play in Bridge tournaments. Goes to show that if you leave the ship unattended, bad things can happen.
this is one of the most idiotic posts i've read in a long time
This is just the same argument that's been had many times on here, can't get mad at BH. Arbitrage1980 did you get corn holed by an ND grad or something? Feel free to respond with a lame Catholic joke.
Not at all. I'm just amused at notre dame alums' delusions given that you guys have not had a relevant football team since 1988, and academically it's horribly overrated. And yet, notre dame alums think their school is just as good as harvard. Lol.
Go Irish football (yeah, I'm another default-to-Notre-Dame kid from the Northeast who never had a local team to root for).
Notre Dame is not overrated academically. It's solidly in the top 25 and is one of the Midwest's relatively few impressive private schools.
Notre Dame is not even close to HYP academically, however. I don't know a single person (even among diehard alums) who would seriously make this claim.
EDIT: I went to neither ND nor Georgetown.
Long time , no see
Did someone just claim a correlation between Bear Stearns' failure and it's hiring of "non-targets"? lmao. Now we're just being silly.
Yup. It was me. And the same for Lehman and to a lesser extent Merrill. A correlation is easy to prove. A causation is possible- though debatable. A significant portion of people at BS would never have been hired at GS- or likely even MS or JPM.
OP lays down the stone cold truth; preftige matters
TTT non-target strivers get mad as fuck
Sorry, truth hurts brothers. The preftigious buyside pool isn't getting tainted by you TTT folks anytime soon.
if i could capture all the living monkeys on this planet and collect their shit i would throw it at you blackhat because this post is trash.
Oh WallStreetOasis....only on this site would I spend 15 minutes reading through a thread like this. Not saying that's good or bad -- just observing.
Still an open offer here (just to clarify I'm refering to analyst and less so, associate levels. Even I'll agree some "talent" is required beyond there). Not even trying to be an ass, I truly am genuinely curious. You see, to have access to opportunities that other's do not makes you lucky. I have ZERO problem with that. However, to think you have some sort of unique and "rare" ability... that's what I have a problem with. Again, I'm not arguing for some sort of "communism of opportunity"- I'm simply requesting you guys to pull your heads out of your asses and realize how lucky you are. Any1 can take a TTS course and be popping out DCFs and spreading comps the next day. To say you are easily replaceable would be an immense understatement (I think the very issue lies in the fact that that's NOT how most of you feel... truly mind boggling).
P.S. I'd be lying if I said some of these comments didn't piss me off. BH is one of the coolest and most helpful users here. If you're gonna disagree with someone that's fine, but there's no need to go there. Grow the fuck up, srsly.
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