Your "Target Schools" lists are outdated and off-base

Obviously a huge topic of interest on WSO is that of the "target school," especially when those who are in high school ask for advice regarding which school they should go to to maximize recruiting. I'm starting at a large BB this summer, and I think that the numbers of how many students from each school we have (at all locations, not just New York, although the rankings are nearly identical just for NYC) is very interesting and completely contrasts the reality of this last year's recruiting with what we expected.

Now yes, I know that one year at one BB may not be indicative of a larger trend or trends at other banks, but it's still very interesting and useful information. Here are the undergrad results. I'm only listing the schools that most would call targets; there were some smaller schools that carried 3 or 4 students (like Bucknell) that I didn't write down.

Notre Dame, Georgetown - 10
Cambridge, UPenn, Vandy, Cornell - 9
Dartmouth, Duke, MIT, UT Austin - 8
University of Chicago, Brown, Columbia, Stanford - 6
UC Berkeley, NYU, USC, Northwestern - 5
Yale - 4
Harvard, LSE, Wake Forest - 3
Princeton - 2

As you can see, this should serve as a wake-up call that attending HYSW isn't the end-all. In fact, I was utterly shocked that Princeton and Harvard didn't fare better (only two graduates going to this bank from Princeton, really??). This should also serve as a reminder that going to a top 25 or so school (based on U.S. News/World Report) will most likely set you up in a good spot for recruiting regardless of what you choose. Finally, this should remind you that most people on WSO have no idea what they're talking about. Georgetown and ND fared better than any other school this year here and yet I constantly see people degrading schools in that vein stating that recruiting "doesn't even come close" to an Ivy. Well, clearly, that's not the case, at least not anymore or this past year. It does matter a great deal if you go to a good school - I was surprised that certain large state schools literally weren't able to get one person into the firm that year via networking, but it's important to remember that your (or U.S. News and World Report's) "ranking" of which school is best doesn't necessarily jibe with what your employer thinks. Except for Wharton, the "Top Ivies" are clearly struggling or not doing as well as they had in years past. Maybe this is due to all the liberal arts majors we see now at Ivies, maybe it's due to affirmative action, etc. But what's clear is that people should pay a little less attention to where others are telling them to study because "it's more prestigious, it's ranked three spots higher" and pay a little more attention to where they feel they'd fit in and thrive.

Comments (106)

May 28, 2012 - 3:59pm
futurectdoc:
I think you discount size and the fact that n=1, Princeton has a graduating class of approximately 1200, UT Austin may have ten times that and not all people at HYPWS plan to go into IBD.

You're right, I didn't specifically list this in the post, obviously the fact that UT is on there is a testament to McCombs honors and the size of the school. However, schools like ND and Georgetown are 2,000 graduating, not much different than Princeton. Yes, the students may have different plans, but I don't think that they'd be that entirely different, especially at Catholic schools that pride themselves on students going into "service" and what not. I just thought the statistics were very interesting and I just get annoyed when WSO mocks those who would "even consider" picking a school like Vandy over an Ivy.

May 29, 2012 - 3:15pm
bulge_bracket:
futurectdoc:
I think you discount size and the fact that n=1, Princeton has a graduating class of approximately 1200, UT Austin may have ten times that and not all people at HYPWS plan to go into IBD.

You're right, I didn't specifically list this in the post, obviously the fact that UT is on there is a testament to McCombs honors and the size of the school. However, schools like ND and Georgetown are 2,000 graduating, not much different than Princeton. Yes, the students may have different plans, but I don't think that they'd be that entirely different, especially at Catholic schools that pride themselves on students going into "service" and what not. I just thought the statistics were very interesting and I just get annoyed when WSO mocks those who would "even consider" picking a school like Vandy over an Ivy.

But the graduating BBA class of McCombs is about 1000, and among them the honor class is about 100.

May 28, 2012 - 3:52pm

Do we have to argue about this every day? Why don't people go to the school they like the most and just try their hardest to get good grades and see where it takes them?

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May 28, 2012 - 4:13pm

Good post, OP.

Like I said before on this forum, based on my personal experiences (visiting & networking), the most common Ivies I've encountered at top banks are Penn, Cornell and Columbia. Your list seems to parallel my own findings.

Best Response
May 28, 2012 - 4:39pm

Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

I hate victims who respect their executioners
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May 28, 2012 - 5:23pm
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

The level of conjecture in that post is both disturbing and hilarious.

Reminds me of this commercial.

May 28, 2012 - 5:49pm
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

Yeah, except there's one problem. You haven't demonstrated how students from Princeton necessarily are more talented than those who go to a school like Georgetown/ND. Especially in today's day and age when affirmative action stops some of the brightest from going to top Ivies, I don't think most employers place the premium on HYP Ivy educations that they used to. And again, for some of these schools banking is the least-represented job, most of them are in fact S&T with some capital markets as well.
Also, I agree in that some of the higher-up people in IBD are mediocre, but these aren't necessarily alumni hiring their own, I'm sure you know how complex the superday process works and how many people have input. What are the rest of the HYP grads doing then, going straight to PE? I don't think so - even if the Wall Street professions are filled with mediocrity, you'd still see many coming from HYP in order to some day lateral.

May 28, 2012 - 5:54pm
bulge_bracket:
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

Yeah, except there's one problem. You haven't demonstrated how students from Princeton necessarily are more talented than those who go to a school like Georgetown/ND. Especially in today's day and age when affirmative action stops some of the brightest from going to top Ivies, I don't think most employers place the premium on HYPSW Ivy educations that they used to. And again, for some of these schools banking is the least-represented job, most of them are in fact S&T with some capital markets as well.

we have a lot of undeserving affirmative action cases at HYP but those guys end up fucking up the interview process anyways so that hardly dilutes the actual pool of real entrants. and i've seen the quality of some of the schools you're talking about. i'll give you an example. the junior EM course at P physics covers 16 chapters out of a standard text in 14 weeks over a semester whereas at a flagship state school the same material is covered in 32 weeks over a year. the bar is set higher and the curve is far more brilliant than even S and W which i place in a lower category. it is not uncommon for our sophomores take grad quantum field theory, kill it at putnam, come in with IMO/IPO golds, etc. you think you'd find that at ND or georgie? yeah fucking right.

May 28, 2012 - 7:41pm
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

For those who don't know, every summer at the end of FT training, TTS does a modeling challenge: a candidate must format nicely a simple income statement. Those who do it under 60 seconds get on a special list. As of July 2011, there were ~100 analysts from all types of banks (Lazard, Wells Fargo, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Greenhill, Jefferies, Moelis, CS, BoA, etc.). Although this is just a formatting test, those who make it under 60 are generally well-prepared Analysts who are ready for work. Here is the breakdown by school (again, as of July 2011):
Yale 2
Wake Forest 2
Vandy 2
UVA 4
Penn 18
Michigan 6
UoFlorida 2
UoChicago 2
Cal Berkeley 2
UT Austin 1
UNC 2
UCLA 2
Dartmouth 5
Rice 2
Princeton 2
NYU 4
Miami 2
Harvard 3
Georgetown 3
Emory 3
Cornell 2
Case Western 2
Brigham Young 3
Boston 3

1 from each: Wilfrid, Washington, UoFlorida, UoWisconsin, UoSaoPaulo, UoRichmond, UoPittsburgh, UoIllinois, Tokyo U, Stanford, Richard Ivey School of Biz, Ohio U, Oxford, Dickinson, Kalamazoo, William & Mary, Colgate, CalTech, Bucknell, BITS Pilani, Arizona State

Top-10 are from NYU, UoFlorida, Penn, Richard Ivery School of Biz, Brigham, Michigan, Cal Berkeley, Dartmouth.

I'll let you all make your own conclusions.

May 28, 2012 - 7:54pm
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!

This is not true at all lol.

If you look through my older posts, I mentioned the importance of studying Business/Finance in undergrad. Well, this is because several alums have mentioned to me and other students at my past school that Econ/Math majors even from top schools just don't interview as well as Finance/Accounting majors. Columbia has more interview slots in OCR for pretty much every BB than Stern, yet Stern ends up placing more. Same goes for Yalies who have 3.9's in Physics, but just interview horribly. Most of them go into Summer Analyst recruiting without any IB experience expecting their school and GPA to make ups for everything. And then they learn it isn't 2006 anymore the hard way.

A couple banks that have some what of an affinity for Columbia (CS, BarCap, MS) even requested the Career Services to petition Columbia College for an undergraduate business major. We didn't quite get an undergraduate business major but a Financial Economics major and Business concentration.

There is one thing that is right in your post though. Penn is by far the most represented across Wall Street and it will take sometime before ND eclipses it. It will be a dark, dark day when that happens. :p

May 28, 2012 - 7:59pm
seedy underbelly:

This is not true at all lol.

If you look through my older posts, I mentioned the importance of studying Business/Finance in undergrad. Well, this is because several alums have mentioned to me and other students at my past school that Econ/Math majors even from top schools just don't interview as well as Finance/Accounting majors. Columbia has more interview slots in OCR for pretty much every BB than Stern, yet Stern ends up placing more. Same goes for Yalies who have 3.9's in Physics, but just interview horribly. Most of them go into Summer Analyst recruiting without any IB experience expecting their school and GPA to make ups for everything. And then they learn it isn't 2006 anymore the hard way.

A couple banks that have some what of an affinity for Columbia (CS, BarCap, MS) even requested the Career Services to petition Columbia College for an undergraduate business major. We didn't quite get an undergraduate business major but a Financial Economics major and Business concentration.

There is one thing that is right in your post though. Penn is by far the most represented across Wall Street and it will take sometime before ND eclipses it. It will be a dark, dark day when that happens. :p

So you're going for the "non-Ivy schools interview better" argument? Seriously? And how hard is it to train someone to be an investment banker? A lack of business school is not the reason certain schools aren't coming out ahead. Having one helps in certain circumstances (Wharton, Stern, etc) but not so much for others (Harvard seems to do okay without one, so does Yale). I'm sure if Indiana didn't have one we wouldn't see them on the street at all, so it helps too. But come on with that interview argument.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
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May 28, 2012 - 8:09pm
BlackHat:
Penn is the most represented on the street bar none.

That said, I don't think I'd wanna work at a bank that was overweight ND and Georgetown. By the way, just throwing this out there - but if you haven't noticed lately there's been a decline in the level of "talent" in IBD these days. And I'll tell you, in the most douchebaggy and pompous way possible, why I think it is... (it's gonna sound bad, but just go with me on this one)

Banking was on top of the world in what, '06? People were scrambling to get into banking from every top school in the country. Kids did their 2 year stint as analysts and then the 'up, over, or out' effect took place. Top talent moved over to the buy-side. Shitty candidates were let go and started doing accounting. Mediocre talent was promoted to associate, VP, etc. A few years later, these guys that were once mediocre IBD analysts are now making hiring decisions at their respective banks. So who do they hire? Kids from their alma maters. Anyone wanna guess where the mediocre guys went? Yeah.

Walk into your megafunds, top HFs, and what not and the distribution is probably the one banking used to have in 2006. And if this "new distribution" keeps up then the biggest class in IBD will end up being Texas A&M.

Go Aggies!


this.

not sure why ppl want to argue about banking targets anyway, fuck banking its shit and can be done by just about anyone.

May 28, 2012 - 5:36pm

This most likely reflects the fact that ibanking is losing its luster - the smarter kids are recognizing that Wall Street returns and pay structure are screwed for a long time to come and are looking elsewhere for their future.

Look, the leverage is gone from the bank's balance sheets so the returns are plumetting, the equity markets going nowhere and the equity culture is slowly dying. Big corporate clients have figured out that they can source and process their own deals. Mutual funds and hedge funds are losing assets and can't afford to pay the commissions like they used to also they have tremendous pressure from their boards to do electronic trading, depriving the banks of high margin high touch business.

Maybe fixed income and derivatives are still making money but you actually need quant skills to do that so your little "business" degree won't matter - they want physics PhDs from MIT.

HYPS see that the banking job is a dead end and go and do something else. Realistically, making much over $1mn working traditional investment banking jobs is now much harder even if you make it to the MD level and you destroy your health and personal life in the process.

May 28, 2012 - 5:54pm
ILOVENYGUY:

HYPS see that the banking job is a dead end and go and do something else.

Evidence? Yes, making it in financial services isn't like it once was, but what are all of these would-be wall street professionals doing, going to med school, TFA, etc? It sounds like you're looking at the effect and making up an excuse - I seriously doubt that droves of HYP students have suddenly been convinced that wall street jobs aren't worth it. Even at other schools (let's take USC as an example), if 5 or so go on to FT at these banks, there were 20 or more who would have done just as well and didn't get as lucky, they didn't get to the superday for whatever reason. The reality is that the same situation exists at HYP and that there were almost certainly dozens of students from HYP who applied to each BB. Why they didn't end up closing the deal is most definitely more complicated than "they're too smart for wall street so they don't even try anymore." I can guarantee you that more than two students from Princeton and three from Harvard applied to each BB bank.

May 28, 2012 - 5:42pm

I was depressed nobody was in the chatroom right after I made that post, because I pointed it out as my most dick-ish, hilarious, yet accurate post on this site so far. Personal favorite though.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
May 28, 2012 - 5:42pm

This isn't just for banking, these are numbers across banking, S&T, etc. Yes, wall street in general may have lost prestige for those coming out of school, but just for everyone's information it's not just banking. @hopesanddreams, this is for all locations, mostly New York but some Chicago as well and some other cities occasionally.

May 28, 2012 - 5:48pm

Very informative post OP. You mentioned that the top ivies may be struggling due to the large number of liberal arts majors. What type of majors do you see at the bank your working in? Are students picking more "quant" majors such as comp sci and math?

Array

May 28, 2012 - 6:00pm

Normally I'm here to provide legitimate information to the youngins, but take that post with a (rather large) grain of salt, I was having fun because this is arguably a "prefteej" thread and they are virtually useless. Though I think there's a decent amount of truth to the post, too. On average I'd guess the intelligence/competency level of a Harvard graduate exceeds that of a Vanderbilt graduate. So there's that.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
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May 29, 2012 - 11:21am
BlackHat:
On average I'd guess the intelligence/competency level of a Harvard graduate exceeds that of a Vanderbilt graduate. So there's that.

This is likely true, but IB isn't targeting students in the 50th percentile. If you compare the top 25 students at each of these schools, you probably won't see much of a difference.

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May 29, 2012 - 12:58pm
TechBanking:
BlackHat:
On average I'd guess the intelligence/competency level of a Harvard graduate exceeds that of a Vanderbilt graduate. So there's that.

This is likely true, but IB isn't targeting students in the 50th percentile. If you compare the top 25 students at each of these schools, you probably won't see much of a difference.

I beg to differ... I think the biggest difference between top Ivys and other schools is the talent at the top. The smartest 10 people at Vanderbilt would not come close to the smartest 10 at Harvard.

May 29, 2012 - 3:28pm
TechBanking:
BlackHat:
On average I'd guess the intelligence/competency level of a Harvard graduate exceeds that of a Vanderbilt graduate. So there's that.

This is likely true, but IB isn't targeting students in the 50th percentile. If you compare the top 25 students at each of these schools, you probably won't see much of a difference.

Absolutely retardedly wrong.

What you mean to say that BB targets the 50th percentile at Harvard which is comparable to the 90th percentile at Vandy.

May 28, 2012 - 6:01pm

The reality is that rewards of working for an investment bank are not what they used to be so the quality of the applicant pool is not what it used to be - don't delude yourself - an average HYP kid is doing just fine but he/she is now working for blackstone or google or clerking in DC

May 28, 2012 - 6:08pm
ILOVENYGUY:
The reality is that rewards of working for an investment bank are not what they used to be so the quality of the applicant pool is not what it used to be - don't delude yourself - an average HYP kid is doing just fine but he/she is now working for blackstone or google or clerking in DC

I'd say you're deluding yourself... I know a bunch of HYW grads from my high school. Yale still has no idea what she's doing next year (wanted to go to med school but nothing's happening), Penn JUST got a job at a law firm (doesn't want to go to law school though), and Harvard graduated last year just to tutor kids here in his hometown for the SAT. Oh, but apparently he "makes bank."

I'm seeing it more an more lately - the top Ivy grads I've encountered are unfocused in their careers. Is this maybe a product of those who make it to HYP maybe trying too hard in high school and then burning out in college?

May 28, 2012 - 6:09pm

So.... if a rising senior in hs wanted to go into ibanking (or S&T, consulting, whatever), you would tell them to go with Georgetown or ND and not HYPSW? I'm sorry man but that's just crazy talk.

May 28, 2012 - 6:11pm
sdxdtx:
So.... if a rising senior in hs wanted to go into ibanking (or S&T, consulting, whatever), you would tell them to go with Georgetown or ND and not HYPSW? I'm sorry man but that's just crazy talk.

That's not what I'm saying necessarily, I'd suggest that he or she visit and make a choice based on how he or she fits in to the campus, social life, location, etc. I just think that the schools in this range are pretty close and that making a decision based on "Well Yale > Dartmouth, therefore I go to Yale" is not only the bad way to go about making the choice but also possibly factually wrong.

May 28, 2012 - 6:22pm
bulge_bracket:
sdxdtx:
So.... if a rising senior in hs wanted to go into ibanking (or S&T, consulting, whatever), you would tell them to go with Georgetown or ND and not HYPSW? I'm sorry man but that's just crazy talk.

That's not what I'm saying necessarily, I'd suggest that he or she visit and make a choice based on how he or she fits in to the campus, social life, location, etc. I just think that the schools in this range are pretty close and that making a decision based on "Well Yale > Dartmouth, therefore I go to Yale" is not only the bad way to go about making the choice but also possibly factually wrong.

I understand and I think that's a reasonable way to go about it. But picking between Dartmouth and Yale is different than picking between Georgetown and Princeton. If someone interested in finance is picking between those two, it would be a bit foolish to go with Georgetown. Not saying you can't make it to GS or MS or whatever from Georgetown, because gtown is a fine school and obviously its been done, but it's more difficult. You get a lot more leeway with grades, major, activities, etc. if you're at a top target. A mediocre student at Princeton could get into banking as long as their GPA is >3.0 and they're not retarded. I don't think a mediocre student at gtown or nd has a shot at banking.

May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:20pm

Is this all front-office work? If its not its largely meaningless, because certain schools are targets for certain types of positions. If they cut back on FO (which ivies are targets for), but still needed for BO (other schools may be target for this), that could account for most of the trend.

I have no stake in this either way jus' sayin

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May 28, 2012 - 6:37pm

I didn't say that we want ANYONE from from HYP ( it is HYP by the way, maybe HYPS and NOT HPW - haha) but the competition for the top candidates has intensified and we do find that our offer yield is lower than it used to be. I define a top candidate as someone with 3.5 GPA or better, a varsity sport, real extracurricular activities, proper command of English, and an outgoing personality.

And yes, noticeably more of those kids end up NOT going to Wall Street anymore (which is probably not a bad thing as far as the broader society is concerned).

BTW most of my favorite analysts have come from Wharton :)

May 28, 2012 - 7:44pm

Shouldn't be too surprising. By the way Phantom has my new favorite avatar on WSO.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
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May 28, 2012 - 9:03pm

I don't know if this adds any value but alot of the kids from my IVY who ended up at BB were not the most qualified candidates. They were usually the ones who networked through their business frats and got interviews that way.

One of the kids who ended up at Morgan Stanley almost failed the excel class I was taking because he didn't understand anything and couldn't do anything. Recruiting has become a joke, such a huge popularity contest.

May 28, 2012 - 11:48pm
ginNtonic:
Touche. Yeah and I noticed Northwestern isn't on the list either.

Hm. Initially I thought it was JPM because of the number of people I know going from Columbia. But a couple other schools don't match at all.

May 29, 2012 - 12:53am

I go to one of the HYPS, and I'm going to venture and say that if this list is indeed BAML, I'm not surprised at all. There's only so many students in my class who are interested in finance. Those who are fall into two categories: prepared to interview (via guides, etc.) or not prepared to interview. Being an econ major does NOT prepare you to interview for finance jobs. It might give you a big picture of the economy, but everyone prepares by reading the same guides. The number of people who are interested in finance, are active enough to get interviews, and who are prepared to interview is actually not that high. Top candidates definitely go to megafunds and "top" BBs. Those who aren't prepared to interview end up interning at boutiques near their hometowns or doing something completely unrelated.

I'm interning at one of the bigger-name BBs, and we have 14 people interning in FO positions. Penn, including Wharton and CAS, topped the list at 16. Cornell had 15.

May 29, 2012 - 1:24am

Man, when I was recruiting I always wished someone would post this kind of information. Since I have nothing better to do and am going to be going into a non-IB group anyways, I wanted to contribute from another BB's analyst book. I think this is more accurate than OP's post since he states that his isn't filtered for I-banking.

This list is only first-year ANALYSTS that are going to be doing the INVESTMENT BANKING program (so this includes products and coverage groups but does not include S&T) in NORTH AMERICA.

> Indiana, Vanderbilt - 8
> Dartmouth - 7
> Georgetown, UPenn - 6
> Duke, Michigan, Notre Dame, UT Austin - 5
> Brown, Chicago, UNC, USC, Wellesley - 4
> Cornell, Harvard - 3
> Amherst, Bucknell, Columbia, Davidson, FGV, Fordham, MIT, Southern Methodist, Stanford, UCBerkeley, W&L, Yale - 2
> NYU, Oxford, Princeton, Villanova, and 22 other schools - 1

Highlights:
> Total - 131 Analysts
> 54 schools represented
> Ivy league - 28 (21%)
> "Targets" (based on what you find on this forum) - 82 (63%)

Just wanted to post the objective data and am not trying to imply any generalizations... I'm sure the rest of you will take care of that in the coming posts.

May 29, 2012 - 9:13am
fakebook:
Man, when I was recruiting I always wished someone would post this kind of information. Since I have nothing better to do and am going to be going into a non-IB group anyways, I wanted to contribute from another BB's analyst book. I think this is more accurate than OP's post since he states that his isn't filtered for I-banking.

This list is only first-year ANALYSTS that are going to be doing the INVESTMENT BANKING program (so this includes products and coverage groups but does not include S&T) in NORTH AMERICA.

> Indiana, Vanderbilt - 8
> Dartmouth - 7
> Georgetown, UPenn - 6
> Duke, Michigan, Notre Dame, UT Austin - 5
> Brown, Chicago, UNC, USC, Wellesley - 4
> Cornell, Harvard - 3
> Amherst, Bucknell, Columbia, Davidson, FGV, Fordham, MIT, Southern Methodist, Stanford, UCBerkeley, W&L, Yale - 2
> NYU, Oxford, Princeton, Villanova, and 22 other schools - 1

Highlights:
> Total - 131 Analysts
> 54 schools represented
> Ivy league - 28 (21%)
> "Targets" (based on what you find on this forum) - 82 (63%)

Just wanted to post the objective data and am not trying to imply any generalizations... I'm sure the rest of you will take care of that in the coming posts.

best guess: DB

May 29, 2012 - 9:12am
fakebook:
Man, when I was recruiting I always wished someone would post this kind of information. Since I have nothing better to do and am going to be going into a non-IB group anyways, I wanted to contribute from another BB's analyst book. I think this is more accurate than OP's post since he states that his isn't filtered for I-banking.

This list is only first-year ANALYSTS that are going to be doing the INVESTMENT BANKING program (so this includes products and coverage groups but does not include S&T) in NORTH AMERICA.

> Indiana, Vanderbilt - 8
> Dartmouth - 7
> Georgetown, UPenn - 6
> Duke, Michigan, Notre Dame, UT Austin - 5
> Brown, Chicago, UNC, USC, Wellesley - 4
> Cornell, Harvard - 3
> Amherst, Bucknell, Columbia, Davidson, FGV, Fordham, MIT, Southern Methodist, Stanford, UCBerkeley, W&L, Yale - 2
> NYU, Oxford, Princeton, Villanova, and 22 other schools - 1

Highlights:
> Total - 131 Analysts
> 54 schools represented
> Ivy league - 28 (21%)
> "Targets" (based on what you find on this forum) - 82 (63%)

Just wanted to post the objective data and am not trying to imply any generalizations... I'm sure the rest of you will take care of that in the coming posts.

Can't tell if you're legit or not. 1 post and you had to comment on this post one with detailed information.

May 29, 2012 - 10:38am

Target students on this site beat their meat too often thinking about prestige. To say that students from schools like Notre Dame or Georgetown are barely-literate retards is really pathetic and horrendously arrogant.

  • 1
May 29, 2012 - 10:43am

how does a school like penn state compare to the ones already listed?

"I will tell you how to become rich. Close the doors. Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful." -- Warren Buffett
May 29, 2012 - 2:50pm

Personally I don't feel this data changes anything about the target system other than the fact that maybe banks are targeting undergraduate business programs a little more heavily then in the past.

But this is data for ONE bank and the OP hasn't even said whether they are FO or not. The only way to really objectively look at the benefits of a target is if there was data across all the BBs and elite boutiques. Otherwise this could be a bank that just happened to favor some ND and GT grads this year. I'd be shocked if they had anywhere near that type of placement across the street.

Also it only covers North America, meaning a lot of the ND, UT-A, Vanderbilt, Indiana, USC people could be working in the mid-west, south, or west at the regional offices which Ivy league grads generally don't target in the first place.

Just empirical evidence from my classmates starting this summer at some BB's seems to indicate that schools such as HYPW do tend to have a significant percentage still.

May 29, 2012 - 4:35pm
Quaneaser:
Personally I don't feel this data changes anything about the target system other than the fact that maybe banks are targeting undergraduate business programs a little more heavily then in the past.

But this is data for ONE bank and the OP hasn't even said whether they are FO or not. The only way to really objectively look at the benefits of a target is if there was data across all the BBs and elite boutiques. Otherwise this could be a bank that just happened to favor some ND and GT grads this year. I'd be shocked if they had anywhere near that type of placement across the street.

Also it only covers North America, meaning a lot of the ND, UT-A, Vanderbilt, Indiana, USC people could be working in the mid-west, south, or west at the regional offices which Ivy league grads generally don't target in the first place.

Just empirical evidence from my classmates starting this summer at some BB's seems to indicate that schools such as HYPW do tend to have a significant percentage still.

This was all FO. Either IBD, S&T, or capital markets. And you're absolutely right, this could be a fluke or I'm definitely not saying that HYP don't still have significant percentages, but I do think that undergrad business schools have changed things.

It's been mentioned a few times here but today, if you major in business, you're learning things for the interviews in class, whereas the Econ student at HYP has to go out of his way to learn this material. In the past, a 3.8 Econ major would be a shoo-in at HYP, but I think that you've got more students at schools like ND who are engaged in the subject material by virtue of being a business major whom the firm may end up taking. As an undergrad business major myself, I know that even had no clue what I was doing regarding recruiting and only did because of classmates. But the info was plastered everywhere because we were in the business school. I can't even imagine how much more out of the loop I'd have been if I went to a school only with an econ major and without the business courses, "marketing" by the business school, etc. I just think that in the past, whereas BB firms would settle for the out-of-the-loop 3.5 econ major at HYP, now they're going for the 3.8 at a top 25 school who's a business major.

May 29, 2012 - 4:44pm

EDIT:
I see several people who are asking about particular schools. I only listed the 20 or so schools traditionally considered to be target schools (except Northwestern, just forgot that one) and then listed the top standouts. There were lots of schools with 1-3 students but the reason I didn't include all of them is because they were too numerous and my intent was to list recent standouts along with those that may have under-performed. If anyone sees anything else I forgot to add, let me know. I've added Wake and Northwestern above.

May 29, 2012 - 5:35pm

The analyst list that facebook posted is most definitely BAML's if it is indeed a bulge bracket bank. The high Indiana and Vanderbilt numbers are dead giveaways.

This might sound elitist but I guaratee you that the Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and J.P. Morgan analyst book will be a lot more representative of the "prestige levels" everyone here is talking about. The majority of Harvard and Princeton grads going into Finance are going into those three bulge brackets-not BAML (no offense).

Remember, Harvard students have access to buyside opportunities that no other school besides Wharton can have access to. There are only 1600 kids at Harvard per year and assuming that most H students are interested in other things besides finance, its not shocking that a lower tier bulge bracket bank will be sparsely populated by Harvard students who can choose to work at the top 3 investment banks or the 5-6 elite botiques.

May 29, 2012 - 8:28pm
eldiablo4857:
The analyst list that facebook posted is most definitely BAML's if it is indeed a bulge bracket bank. The high Indiana and Vanderbilt numbers are dead giveaways.

This might sound elitist but I guaratee you that the Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and J.P. Morgan analyst book will be a lot more representative of the "prestige levels" everyone here is talking about. The majority of Harvard and Princeton grads going into Finance are going into those three bulge brackets-not BAML (no offense).

Remember, Harvard students have access to buyside opportunities that no other school besides Wharton can have access to. There are only 1600 kids at Harvard per year and assuming that most H students are interested in other things besides finance, its not shocking that a lower tier bulge bracket bank will be sparsely populated by Harvard students who can choose to work at the top 3 investment banks or the 5-6 elite botiques.

What the fuck are you talking about? Harvard and Wharton kids have access to buyside opportunities that no other schools have access to? Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe learn how to spell boutique before spouting complete nonsense like that. I know numerous kids from schools you would perceive to be lesser schools than Harvard and Wharton who got jobs at Megafunds over kids from HYPSW. I beat out plenty of kids from Harvard and Wharton to get my buyside gig. You just make yourself sound like an idiot when you make ridiculous comments like the above. Pretty obvious that you don't do the work that we do, because anyone who works in the industry can point to brilliant kids from all universities and you find very quickly that the Wharton, Princeton, Harvard kids that you drool over aren't that much better (if at all) of analysts than kids from any other school. Some of the absolute best analysts I know went to state schools and are every bit as good as kids from Harvard. Also, you don't seem to have a very good grasp on how the buyside recruiting process works either. Headhunters interview EVERYONE... they are the biggest whores out there because they know that talent isn't indicative of where you went to school. Sure they target certain groups and backgrounds, but if it was just a fact that the best analysts came from certain schools and groups then you wouldn't see kids from all different schools getting jobs at all types of buyside shops.

Oct 13, 2012 - 2:26am
eldiablo4857:
The analyst list that facebook posted is most definitely BAML's if it is indeed a bulge bracket bank. The high Indiana and Vanderbilt numbers are dead giveaways.

This might sound elitist but I guaratee you that the Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and J.P. Morgan analyst book will be a lot more representative of the "prestige levels" everyone here is talking about. The majority of Harvard and Princeton grads going into Finance are going into those three bulge brackets-not BAML (no offense).

Remember, Harvard students have access to buyside opportunities that no other school besides Wharton can have access to. There are only 1600 kids at Harvard per year and assuming that most H students are interested in other things besides finance, its not shocking that a lower tier bulge bracket bank will be sparsely populated by Harvard students who can choose to work at the top 3 investment banks or the 5-6 elite botiques.

While some may be offended by your comments, I can speak to their truth. I didn't go to Indiana or Vanderbuilt, but I did go to a large state school that is very similar to Indiana and you are 100% correct. BAML and similar BB's hire many more students than GS, MS, or JPM. I'm also pretty sure that they interview less though so % wise it may be similar, hard to say for sure. Regardless, I personally believe going where I did was a great choice (amazing people, sports teams, and solid academics) and that as long as the majority of banks come to campus, the opportunity is there and that it's much more about personality and social skills at the interview stage than prestige, gpa, and other interview screening criteria. A common theme I have noticed when people talk about recruiting is that they equate the traits needed to secure an interview as the same ones needed to secure a job.

May 29, 2012 - 10:02pm
revoad:
I think eldiablo was referring to megafund recruitment straight from undergrad. Megafunds tend to recruit through only a handful of school's OCRs.

Second this. I think he meant many high level buy-side firms recruit exclusively from Harvard and Wharton for SA and FT positions. Obviously once you're out in the working world, where you went to school becomes much less important than the work you do and what your co-workers think about you.

I hate victims who respect their executioners
  • 1
May 29, 2012 - 11:42pm

target schools will get you more interviews but you still have to prove yourself in said interview and on the job. time to end this penis measuring contest.

/thread

May 30, 2012 - 7:07pm

Using an anonymous account since I would not like this traced back to me.

Another point of reference. This was Deutsche Bank's summer analyst list from last year (~75 class size) in their U.S. offices. DB includes capital markets (ECM, DCM, LevFin) in their IBD class.

Please do not quote this in case I have to remove it. Ranked numerically first and then alphabetically.

Dartmouth

Boston College
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown
Michigan
UVA

UPenn (Wharton?)

Harvard
Notre Dame
Princeton
Smith
Stanford
UC Berkeley
Washington & Lee
William & Mary
Wisconsin

Yale

Amherst
Brown
Clemson
Illinois
Kansas
Maryland
Middlebury
Morehouse
Mount Holyoke
NYU (Stern?)
Rice
Santa Clara
Spelman
TCU
UC Irvine
UCLA
Wheaton
Williams

May 31, 2012 - 1:40am

Here's JPM's IBD, capital markets, and public finance numbers from this year. Like "hopefully anonymous", I'm hoping to stay anonymous and please don't quote these in any posts in case I need to delete it.

10
UChicago
9
Cornell
Princeton
8
Harvard
Yale
7
UPenn
Washington & Lee
5
Brown
USC
UVA
4
Amherst
Columbia
Miami of Ohio
MIT
UC Berkeley
3
Baruch
Duke
Georgetown
Morehouse
Rice
Williams

May 31, 2012 - 2:02am
eponymous anonymous:
Here's JPM's IBD, capital markets, and public finance numbers from this year. Like "hopefully anonymous", I'm hoping to stay anonymous and please don't quote these in any posts in case I need to delete it.

10
UChicago
9
Cornell
Princeton
8
Harvard
Yale
7
UPenn
Washington & Lee
5
Brown
USC
UVA
4
Amherst
Columbia
Miami of Ohio
MIT
UC Berkeley
3
Baruch
Duke
Georgetown
Morehouse
Rice
Williams

woah. go uchicago

May 31, 2012 - 2:45am

"I think we should all be more concerned about the environment and the effects of global warming. It will be pointless to talk about all the issues that divide us when it's 300 degrees outside." Don Cheadle

GBS
  • 1
Jun 1, 2012 - 8:54pm

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I hate victims who respect their executioners
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:25pm

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