Choosing HF over PE?

Will likely receive an offer at a MM HF soon but also in several PE processes.

In short, am worried that HF compensation is significantly below PE and also more risky (with benefit being you do not have deferred carry so you earn money earlier). So if I choose the HF route do I really need to believe that 1) Job is more interesting, 2) I am better at HF than PE, 3) I might not get a PE offer

Would really appreciate some perspective and apologies, if this has been discussed previously. Thanks. Below some of my detailed thoughts.

+++

Understand Pod PMs probably make about 4m in a normal year (1bn book / 4% return / 20% of P&L to team / 50% to PM)

Obviously HF is a risky career and there doesn’t seem to be that much upside from there given raising money yourself and competing without the infrastructure is very difficult. 

PE on the other hand seems to have partners earning 10m+ a year (even at smaller funds). On top of that you can coinvest in the fund which may have 20%+ returns. Of course not everyone makes partner but equally difficult to become HF PM and the median PE outcome is higher. Flipside is that you need to wait longer for carry to materialise but you reach the HF PM earnings level fairly soon.

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Take PE. Just from the way you speak on here its pretty apparent you're not well suited to a risk-taking role or comfortable with a wide selection of outcomes if you go down MMHF.

If you do MMHF it should be because you're optimising for:

1) A career in publics - becoming a PM surviving 5+ years necessarily means you have a type of talent, and hunger to be plugged into the markets beyond it just being "a job".

2) Your own skill/ability. MMHF isn't PE. There's no hiding behind bureaucracy or "structure" in the organisation which will naturally progress you upwards while you learn the trade. Thinking about "how many people make PM vs Partner" is the wrong way of framing it. You'll either be a rockstar PM (take HF) or you won't be...

 

I would disagree a bit with the above poster, it's a lot more than purely a question of risk tolerance. This is going to be a bit simplistic, but I think it'll catch the major points someone at your age/level should be thinking about.

  • As a general rule, don't focus on the long tail outcomes you see/hear about PMs/partners having and use that as a basis for decision-making. Getting to either position takes a long time (less so for HFs if you're a true breakout talent, which is only becoming rarer). You will likely spend a decade+ before you're even scraping at the opportunity to get promoted to that level so what's more important now is figuring out which path is more optimal for you given your interests & competencies.  
  • Early and mid career HF comp is far more tied to performance than PE and has considerably less job security. If you crush it at a big platform and are a top performer, you'll make multiples of the cash comp you would at the same level in PE. If you underperform, you'll either get shit out and have to find a new job or at best make less in cash comp + you won't have the long tale of carry. It's all about looking at short term performance OVER the long term vs taking the long term view from the get go because of how funds inherently work. If you're the former, you'll rise up and could opportunistically become a PM much earlier than you would a partner at most PEs. HF is the UFC with constant title fights vs PE's a marathon of compounding . If you make it to the final stretch you could have tens of millions in carry headed your way with the caveat you chose a good fund that makes performing investments and has capacity to scale. And that's not even getting into internal politics, carry economics (and the "golden handcuffs"), and the sheer difficulty of exiting an non-liquid asset vs for a HF you're generally dealing with much easier liquidity and profit realization. Contrast to the HF where you have magnitudes more ways to make (and lose) money and where you're more heavily rewarded (or canned) the faster you can get those dollars through the door. 
  • The work itself at a HF is going to be more interesting in that you'll be spending more time on actual idea generation i.e. figuring out how to get said money through said door. This is why many folks find it the more intellectually stimulating job, because you're not the one managing the day-to-day of anything you're investing in (we're of course excluding the complex private deals some HFs get involved in or deeply involved activist investors, but those are more akin to PE anyway). It's the "purest" form of investing if your definition of investing is purely based around the exercise of security selection and structuring transactions. PE is a LOT of process work i.e. paper pushing. There's a reason it's considered banking 2.0. You'll be managing bankers, lawyers, and sometimes internal/external consultants or subject matter experts. You're overseeing portfolio company work i.e. helping management teams directly with 1-off asks or getting directly involved in canvassing the market for add-on opportunities, helping with things like recruiting, and making introductions to high value customer prospects depending on the value-prop your fund's LPs/network bring to the table. The bright side of PE, depending on how you look at it, is there's a much longer feedback cycle because of the nature of the asset class so you won't really know if you're "good" until a decade+ into your career vs HF is mark-to-market and you're being judged every quarter by LPs/every day by your PM.
  • Where/who you work matters, more so for PE I'd argue because of the network and prestige effect vs a HF. HF if you're a performer with a track record that speaks for itself that was meaningfully value-add to your PM or have gotten to manage meaningful P&L (at least 8 moving up as high as 9 digits) then you'll be respected and can be competitive anywhere with a comparable strategy (excluding the big name SMs who tend to fall a bit more into the PE trope of requiring prestigious backgrounds in most cases to even get an interview). UMM/MF PE a lot more emphasis is put on background and who you worked under. You could be a junior that worked on some of the biggest 0s at the big name MFs but that won't tarnish you nearly in the same way a bad track record will in the HF world because you would still have a name like KKR on your resume - look what happened to Primedia, Sungard, RJR Nabisco, Envision, etc. - I know guys who were ASOs/Sr ASOs on some of those deals who still went on to have massive careers. Now granted, in a HF one could argue that the ultimate decision and risk management falls to the PM so it shouldn't matter (and you'll see plenty of junior folks whose funds/pods get blown out still get jobs afterward), but if your PM can't/won't vouch for your ability to provide good analysis & support you'll be a dead horse all the same.   

Hope this helps!

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hi...a couple things...

1. don't worry about $ early on and leave ego at door...I started in this biz 20 yrs ago from i-banking...i was paid less as a junior than my friends that went to PE and i got 0 bonus y2...was pretty depressed and thought about quitting. my advice is don't pay attention to $ for the first 2-3 years...your job is to learn...the $ will come if you're good

2. the ones who crush it in this model don't make $4m...there are people making $50m and being guaranteed 9 figures from other firms. lots of my friends stayed in pe and did well/made it to partner...and big firms...KKR helman friedman...they've done well...yes...but the best HF PMs are a lot richer than them lol. there are pm's with hundreds of millions or lsd billions of lifetime pnl that have taken 15%+ of that. 

3. much of the appeal of this biz is having an outlier yr. try $2.5bn book / 10% return / 20% pnl / 60% to PM = 30m bonus. yes...you'd be overearning on 4x sharpe and that will compress but it happens every year. i've seen guys up 15% on big $gmv in equities...can take a tilt yes...but we're paid on accounting pnl...i'd encourage you to not aim for 4m outcome. i've paid snr analysts 4m. the big platforms want you to run billions of gross (not $1bn) which means you can run a team with multiple sleeves under you and generate 9 figure pnl. do the math on a $3-5bn book

4. you can co-invest in your fund, depends shop to shop but often fee free

5. the big platforms take the top pms and make them partner, which alone (depending on your seniority and what platform we're talking about) can eclipse the PE comp you laid out

6. if you do well in this model, you will be successful...it's not easy. i took punch in face first year years but you need to stick it out

again...it's not easy...not easy at all...know what you're signing up for...

 

A very simple and short answer is what is your risk-tolerance and time horizon. Both are actually quite different in roles. HF is way more risk-taking. You can definitely earn more money early on if you are good but the flip side is you can be gone fast. I know people who went to top funds and lasted 6 months. Luckily they went to other funds and are doing well. HF is fast paced and you need to be sharp minded.

PE on the other hand is long term focused and more risk-averse. You are not just making quick trades and on to the next. You are going to be living and breathing your investments for a long time. Comp is long term as a result and you don’t start making real money until carry at most funds. The work is quite different too since you will be building more complex models and IC decks. Also due diligence will be significantly more extensive. Admin as well given all the portco work (I know people at funds where the majority of their work is boring portfolio mgmt work).

 

Forgive me for being short and blunt with this post but I've been in the game for +7 years now on the sell side and buyside working in a hf for the latter five years. I caveat that I haven't worked with a MM but HF none the less.
1) Stop planning what money you can make - everything that exists is guidance based on performance that's already happened if you want a real bench-mark look at base and assume a measly bonus unless you really can add value.

2) Even if you can add value - there are people who have been in the waiting list for a payday longer than you so expect it to take a while and excuses to come in heavy.

3) Focus on what wakes you up and what you want to do and your speciality - PE / HF isn't just about what makes more cash with exit ops, it's about how much you actually care to keep grinding when your theoretical payday doesn't happen and you still have to grind on.

My advice is this - focus on what you want and what drives you and then think about what fits you best, because at the end of the day you're just a number and a severance package away from being without a job. 

 

I've done both MF PE and MM L/S. Did a PE -> HF move so it will be biased. But offering my two cents on how to approach this assuming you have no preference (which in reality means you don't know enough about the jobs if you don't).

Let's break down the NPV of these career paths:
 

PE career = high Sharpe ratio, bond-like career.

  • You can reasonably predict your earnings trajectory (co-invest/fund exposure, deployment, return bands) if you climb to partner level.
  • Being a stellar investor helps, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Your personal asset selection prowess isn't necessarily the driver of your success.
  • You operate well in high pressure / tight deadline team environments (fertile ground for interpersonal friction)
  • What matters is being able to attach your name to the deals that drive fund returns (which may or may not be within your control or due to your deal-making finesse).
  • The crucial factor is internal backing to avoid being marginalised by the relentless influx of fresh talent from IB and consulting (which in means dealing with people who ended up in in PE by "default" career choices).
  • Success hinges on having the firm's power players in your corner (yes, office politics and favoritism play a role), grinding it out for 20+ years, and cultivating a network of allies (office heads, portfolio company C-suites, advisors - it's all about mutual back-scratching).
  • Be selective with sharing your true opinions and know your place in the IC pecking order.

L/S career = high beta, equity-like career.

  • The outcome distribution is wide, with the bell curve skewed towards the middle/slightly below average.
  • You might earn like a typical professional services in a big city or make bank early on. Investment acumen is paramount - asset selection is everything!
  • You work well individually
  • You have more control to dictate your track  as you'll formulate and express investment views on day 1.
  • It's nice if people like you, but not essential.
  • Expressing your views is key, and articulating them well even more so. You need to be incredibly self aware of what you're good at and not, and act on what you know and what you know that you don't know.
  • There's no real "off" switch. MM L/S investing isn't just a job; it's a lifestyle. You're mark-to-market as long as the markets are open, whether you're tying the knot with your better half or visiting a sick relative in the hospital. It's a grueling way to build wealth, and generational wealth is rare. Few make it to multi-billion dollar books at top MMs.

The commonalities?

  • Staying power is key, but the skillset to achieve it varies wildly.
  • PE is generally a safer bet, with a narrower bell curve as even mid-tier firms turn can provide good income.
  • L/S is a more exhilarating ride, but it's tough to land on the right side of the tail.

So, why switch if PE is a safer career and better NPV on a risk adjusted basis?
I was willing to trade job security for job satisfaction. I knew the risks. I wanted to wake up every morning feeling like what I do matters and I can measure my impact and contribution. Either I'm proven right, or the market will keep me honest.

My success or failure will largely be dictated by myself based on how good I actually am, whereas in PE some of that will be me, but a healthy chunk by others perception of how good I am. When I was in PE, if I worked with someone I didn't respect or who made the wrong decision, I couldn't keep my mouth shut. But I have to endure working intimately w that person for the next 3-9 months closing a deal I know we won't win or get through IC.

Sounds cliche but picking careers for potential dollar earnings is dumb. If you focus on where you're best able to capitalise on what you're good at and minimise what you such at, the money will follow naturally. For some it's playing the game, and there's no better business school in corporate finance then PE. But I knew I wouldn't last. I couldn't keep my loud mouth shut or be diplomatic enough to express my view in a "soft" enough way to not imply to the below average senior guy that they were stupid for spending DD budget and firm resources on the wrong DD items or just brush off confirmation biases in IC. And that's without mentioning the greed on bps in MIPs and spending sunday nights with lawyers discussing EV-to-equity bridge mechanisms. 

For my mindset, L/S equity is perfect.

I'll either make it or break it due to my own abilities, but I can't fake it.

 

Hey, really appreciate this sharing. Would you say being in a MFPE helped build some of the investor acumen that helped you out with MMHF? Of course sell-side ER or buy-side ER is definitely the most applicable, but how about private investments?

Interned at a MMHF before, as well as a PE (not MF, but def a heavyweight in a particular asset class). Generally definitely agree with what you say and it is something I come into contact with even as an intern hearing from the Principals/MDs at the PE too. Also had a senior exit from MFPE to MMHF, and their rationale was the investments at PE come to the firm due to its brand name, whereas at an HF, you are building your own skills and investor ability.

Same point on earnings, like how PE is a safe way to make millions, whereas an HF is about betting on yourself. Now, what I struggle with is reconciling the fact that people always say public markets require the experience/tiding it out over many business cycles and consistently getting better. As an undergrad/freshgrad, it's not exactly possible. I know talent is a huge part and there's definitely a lot of people who do MMHF as their first job and crush it. While I did have that internship experience, I am definitely far from those kinds of generational talent - Will building up sector experience first in another finance role before going back to MMHF be a better move than just forcing my way to public markets (and perhaps end up with no job after a year)?  

 

The business cycle point is more important for the "investing" biz, trading positioning data and earnings probably don't require the same foresight.

I hope anyway, reneged BB for MMHF FT

 

Hey, really appreciate this sharing. Would you say being in a MFPE helped build some of the investor acumen that helped you out with MMHF? Of course sell-side ER or buy-side ER is definitely the most applicable, but how about private investments?

Interned at a MMHF before, as well as a PE (not MF, but def a heavyweight in a particular asset class). Generally definitely agree with what you say and it is something I come into contact with even as an intern hearing from the Principals/MDs at the PE too. Also had a senior exit from MFPE to MMHF, and their rationale was the investments at PE come to the firm due to its brand name, whereas at an HF, you are building your own skills and investor ability.

Same point on earnings, like how PE is a safe way to make millions, whereas an HF is about betting on yourself. Now, what I struggle with is reconciling the fact that people always say public markets require the experience/tiding it out over many business cycles and consistently getting better. As an undergrad/freshgrad, it's not exactly possible. I know talent is a huge part and there's definitely a lot of people who do MMHF as their first job and crush it. While I did have that internship experience, I am definitely far from those kinds of generational talent - Will building up sector experience first in another finance role before going back to MMHF be a better move than just forcing my way to public markets (and perhaps end up with no job after a year)?  

I think having invested over cycles definitely helps but won't be the reason why one makes/breaks it. Experience can be mitigated through analyzing history and/or working with PMs who are willing to teach their craft. There's tons of data and anecdotes being presented at the slightest inkling of a new cycle, so I don't agree with the notion that you have to physically have lived through or invested multiple cycles to trade it well. Having seen previous cycles could also make you prone to various biases which may or may not aid you. No one cycle is the same. "History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes".
I don't have the data to back this up, but if you were to regress investing tenure versus PNL/alpha I don't think there would be a strong correlation. I see both young and old investors fail and succeed, and rarely is "experience" the edge. It becomes more of a hygiene factor when you become a risk taker, but as we all know; "past performance is not an indicator of future returns". 

Yeah for sure, PE definitely helped me personally. I started at a directional place so they were actively recruiting out of PE for the DD skillset. It's become an increasingly sought after skill in platform hiring. You work very intimately with dynamic businesses, know how to navigate the C-suites and emphasize proprietary research rather then having just graded businesses from the outside.

It'll give you an appreciation of the commercial realities behind some strategic initiatives you observe in a public markets setting. With that said, there were things I had to "unlearn" from PE to be an efficient L/S equity investor. A good PE associate doesn't automatically lend itself to becoming a good L/S equity analyst or PM.

We're all the product of our experiences and biases. We all think our own experience is the best path forward because it's what has worked for us. I was at a consulting heavy PE shop which prob impacted my approach to how I view businesses. I don't think it gives me a sustainable edge in a public market setting as such. But I do view things from a different lens at times then my ER trained peers. E.g. I do find myself thinking more about cap structures, the "true/underlying" feasibility of LBO risks in public names rather then just taking betaville headlines at face value. I feel like I have a better process for discriminating the quality of growth and quality of earnings of businesses. I've seen specs and research guys on the sellside push a name to investors because "low leverage facilities buyout optionality" which is just plain wrong.

I also see plenty of mis-modelling on margin flow throughs for businesses undergoing synergy realizations because they haven't seen from the inside how SG&A inflates due to all the cost centers you're forced to setup because you're chasing growth.

The starkest contrast however is this unprofound fear of high gearing in many public companies despite excellent interest coverage ratios. The public market investor doesn't solve for the optimal cap structure, they run screens on high leverage relative to industry peers and for that reason it falls in to a high gearing basket and trades down when rates were going up regardless if Levered FCF yield > Unlevered FCF yield which implies you should increase gearing and you're blessed with +10 yr maturity TLBs. That's an extreme example but you get my point. 

With that said, all these nuances averages out. Skillsets converge over time. 

The best platform PMs I've seen haven't really had PE experience, so end of the day is all about how your process enables you to make $$. The rest is just how you market yourself.

 

My success or failure will largely be dictated by myself based on how good I actually am, whereas in PE some of that will be me, but a healthy chunk by others perception of how good I am. When I was in PE, if I worked with someone I didn't respect or who made the wrong decision, I couldn't keep my mouth shut. 

I couldn't keep my loud mouth shut or be diplomatic enough to express my view in a "soft" enough way to not imply to the below average senior guy that they were stupid for spending DD budget and firm resources on the wrong DD items or just brush off confirmation biases in IC.

Ugh this sounds too familiar. Not to mention how in PE, it's too easy for fingers to be pointed downwards despite clear evidence

 

I would say HF if you really have a passion for public equities, and generally enjoy doing stock research, etc. If you don't have a genuine interest, however, you won't become that rockstar PM. 

Pick what you enjoy doing, and make sure that the ceiling of potential earning is high enough for your liking. I see that generally it's higher on average in PE, but of course there are exceptions. You can always try it out for a few years and boomerang back to PE if you hate it.

 

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