Choosing HF over PE?
Will likely receive an offer at a MM HF soon but also in several PE processes.
In short, am worried that HF compensation is significantly below PE and also more risky (with benefit being you do not have deferred carry so you earn money earlier). So if I choose the HF route do I really need to believe that 1) Job is more interesting, 2) I am better at HF than PE, 3) I might not get a PE offer
Would really appreciate some perspective and apologies, if this has been discussed previously. Thanks. Below some of my detailed thoughts.
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Understand Pod PMs probably make about 4m in a normal year (1bn book / 4% return / 20% of P&L to team / 50% to PM)
Obviously HF is a risky career and there doesn’t seem to be that much upside from there given raising money yourself and competing without the infrastructure is very difficult.
PE on the other hand seems to have partners earning 10m+ a year (even at smaller funds). On top of that you can coinvest in the fund which may have 20%+ returns. Of course not everyone makes partner but equally difficult to become HF PM and the median PE outcome is higher. Flipside is that you need to wait longer for carry to materialise but you reach the HF PM earnings level fairly soon.
how can one confidently say equally difficult to become HF PM and PE PM?
if you really believe anything you're writing, then this is strictly a question on risk tolerance. and if this is how you break down risk, go with PE, as you're not cut for HF
Thank you - so would you say a higher percentage of people who start at a HF make it to PM and stay in a PM seat for 5+ years vs people starting in PE who make it to partner?
Agree that risk tolerance is important but making some “expected value calculations” seems appropriate for this type of decisions.
Take PE. Just from the way you speak on here its pretty apparent you're not well suited to a risk-taking role or comfortable with a wide selection of outcomes if you go down MMHF.
If you do MMHF it should be because you're optimising for:
1) A career in publics - becoming a PM surviving 5+ years necessarily means you have a type of talent, and hunger to be plugged into the markets beyond it just being "a job".
2) Your own skill/ability. MMHF isn't PE. There's no hiding behind bureaucracy or "structure" in the organisation which will naturally progress you upwards while you learn the trade. Thinking about "how many people make PM vs Partner" is the wrong way of framing it. You'll either be a rockstar PM (take HF) or you won't be...
Your logic has serious holes. Even if there are more people making PM per HF than partner per PE firm, the caliber of talent and business models are different. There are also more PE firms in the world than HFs. The best kids out of PE go to HFs and not the other way around.
You would get killed in publics with your deduction skills. Stay in privates.
Great answer as I'm reading OPs post and slowly going "yeah...this guy just belongs in PE."
I would disagree a bit with the above poster, it's a lot more than purely a question of risk tolerance. This is going to be a bit simplistic, but I think it'll catch the major points someone at your age/level should be thinking about.
Hope this helps!
hi...a couple things...
1. don't worry about $ early on and leave ego at door...I started in this biz 20 yrs ago from i-banking...i was paid less as a junior than my friends that went to PE and i got 0 bonus y2...was pretty depressed and thought about quitting. my advice is don't pay attention to $ for the first 2-3 years...your job is to learn...the $ will come if you're good
2. the ones who crush it in this model don't make $4m...there are people making $50m and being guaranteed 9 figures from other firms. lots of my friends stayed in pe and did well/made it to partner...and big firms...KKR helman friedman...they've done well...yes...but the best HF PMs are a lot richer than them lol. there are pm's with hundreds of millions or lsd billions of lifetime pnl that have taken 15%+ of that.
3. much of the appeal of this biz is having an outlier yr. try $2.5bn book / 10% return / 20% pnl / 60% to PM = 30m bonus. yes...you'd be overearning on 4x sharpe and that will compress but it happens every year. i've seen guys up 15% on big $gmv in equities...can take a tilt yes...but we're paid on accounting pnl...i'd encourage you to not aim for 4m outcome. i've paid snr analysts 4m. the big platforms want you to run billions of gross (not $1bn) which means you can run a team with multiple sleeves under you and generate 9 figure pnl. do the math on a $3-5bn book
4. you can co-invest in your fund, depends shop to shop but often fee free
5. the big platforms take the top pms and make them partner, which alone (depending on your seniority and what platform we're talking about) can eclipse the PE comp you laid out
6. if you do well in this model, you will be successful...it's not easy. i took punch in face first year years but you need to stick it out
again...it's not easy...not easy at all...know what you're signing up for...
always dropping the heat!
Not the original poster, but was wondering how you turned things around from those first few years? Any advice on how to learn effectively / how to identify the right people and habits to learn?
I figure you have only a handful of years where you can show 'promise' before you have to show the results.
My PM is a partner at C/M. He's never told us how that works/factors into his comp, all I know is he's obviously done extremely well. Can you share how the partnership works (what it takes to get there, what it entails, how many partners there are, are you a partner in the firm or just your specific business unit)?
Wow
4X sharpe wow
A very simple and short answer is what is your risk-tolerance and time horizon. Both are actually quite different in roles. HF is way more risk-taking. You can definitely earn more money early on if you are good but the flip side is you can be gone fast. I know people who went to top funds and lasted 6 months. Luckily they went to other funds and are doing well. HF is fast paced and you need to be sharp minded.
PE on the other hand is long term focused and more risk-averse. You are not just making quick trades and on to the next. You are going to be living and breathing your investments for a long time. Comp is long term as a result and you don’t start making real money until carry at most funds. The work is quite different too since you will be building more complex models and IC decks. Also due diligence will be significantly more extensive. Admin as well given all the portco work (I know people at funds where the majority of their work is boring portfolio mgmt work).
Second this
Forgive me for being short and blunt with this post but I've been in the game for +7 years now on the sell side and buyside working in a hf for the latter five years. I caveat that I haven't worked with a MM but HF none the less.
1) Stop planning what money you can make - everything that exists is guidance based on performance that's already happened if you want a real bench-mark look at base and assume a measly bonus unless you really can add value.
2) Even if you can add value - there are people who have been in the waiting list for a payday longer than you so expect it to take a while and excuses to come in heavy.
3) Focus on what wakes you up and what you want to do and your speciality - PE / HF isn't just about what makes more cash with exit ops, it's about how much you actually care to keep grinding when your theoretical payday doesn't happen and you still have to grind on.
My advice is this - focus on what you want and what drives you and then think about what fits you best, because at the end of the day you're just a number and a severance package away from being without a job.
Don’t.
Since you're asking this question, don't go to a MM
I've done both MF PE and MM L/S. Did a PE -> HF move so it will be biased. But offering my two cents on how to approach this assuming you have no preference (which in reality means you don't know enough about the jobs if you don't).
Let's break down the NPV of these career paths:
PE career = high Sharpe ratio, bond-like career.
L/S career = high beta, equity-like career.
The commonalities?
So, why switch if PE is a safer career and better NPV on a risk adjusted basis?
I was willing to trade job security for job satisfaction. I knew the risks. I wanted to wake up every morning feeling like what I do matters and I can measure my impact and contribution. Either I'm proven right, or the market will keep me honest.
My success or failure will largely be dictated by myself based on how good I actually am, whereas in PE some of that will be me, but a healthy chunk by others perception of how good I am. When I was in PE, if I worked with someone I didn't respect or who made the wrong decision, I couldn't keep my mouth shut. But I have to endure working intimately w that person for the next 3-9 months closing a deal I know we won't win or get through IC.
Sounds cliche but picking careers for potential dollar earnings is dumb. If you focus on where you're best able to capitalise on what you're good at and minimise what you such at, the money will follow naturally. For some it's playing the game, and there's no better business school in corporate finance then PE. But I knew I wouldn't last. I couldn't keep my loud mouth shut or be diplomatic enough to express my view in a "soft" enough way to not imply to the below average senior guy that they were stupid for spending DD budget and firm resources on the wrong DD items or just brush off confirmation biases in IC. And that's without mentioning the greed on bps in MIPs and spending sunday nights with lawyers discussing EV-to-equity bridge mechanisms.
For my mindset, L/S equity is perfect.
I'll either make it or break it due to my own abilities, but I can't fake it.
Hey, really appreciate this sharing. Would you say being in a MFPE helped build some of the investor acumen that helped you out with MMHF? Of course sell-side ER or buy-side ER is definitely the most applicable, but how about private investments?
Interned at a MMHF before, as well as a PE (not MF, but def a heavyweight in a particular asset class). Generally definitely agree with what you say and it is something I come into contact with even as an intern hearing from the Principals/MDs at the PE too. Also had a senior exit from MFPE to MMHF, and their rationale was the investments at PE come to the firm due to its brand name, whereas at an HF, you are building your own skills and investor ability.
Same point on earnings, like how PE is a safe way to make millions, whereas an HF is about betting on yourself. Now, what I struggle with is reconciling the fact that people always say public markets require the experience/tiding it out over many business cycles and consistently getting better. As an undergrad/freshgrad, it's not exactly possible. I know talent is a huge part and there's definitely a lot of people who do MMHF as their first job and crush it. While I did have that internship experience, I am definitely far from those kinds of generational talent - Will building up sector experience first in another finance role before going back to MMHF be a better move than just forcing my way to public markets (and perhaps end up with no job after a year)?
The business cycle point is more important for the "investing" biz, trading positioning data and earnings probably don't require the same foresight.
I hope anyway, reneged BB for MMHF FT
I think having invested over cycles definitely helps but won't be the reason why one makes/breaks it. Experience can be mitigated through analyzing history and/or working with PMs who are willing to teach their craft. There's tons of data and anecdotes being presented at the slightest inkling of a new cycle, so I don't agree with the notion that you have to physically have lived through or invested multiple cycles to trade it well. Having seen previous cycles could also make you prone to various biases which may or may not aid you. No one cycle is the same. "History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes".
I don't have the data to back this up, but if you were to regress investing tenure versus PNL/alpha I don't think there would be a strong correlation. I see both young and old investors fail and succeed, and rarely is "experience" the edge. It becomes more of a hygiene factor when you become a risk taker, but as we all know; "past performance is not an indicator of future returns".
Yeah for sure, PE definitely helped me personally. I started at a directional place so they were actively recruiting out of PE for the DD skillset. It's become an increasingly sought after skill in platform hiring. You work very intimately with dynamic businesses, know how to navigate the C-suites and emphasize proprietary research rather then having just graded businesses from the outside.
It'll give you an appreciation of the commercial realities behind some strategic initiatives you observe in a public markets setting. With that said, there were things I had to "unlearn" from PE to be an efficient L/S equity investor. A good PE associate doesn't automatically lend itself to becoming a good L/S equity analyst or PM.
We're all the product of our experiences and biases. We all think our own experience is the best path forward because it's what has worked for us. I was at a consulting heavy PE shop which prob impacted my approach to how I view businesses. I don't think it gives me a sustainable edge in a public market setting as such. But I do view things from a different lens at times then my ER trained peers. E.g. I do find myself thinking more about cap structures, the "true/underlying" feasibility of LBO risks in public names rather then just taking betaville headlines at face value. I feel like I have a better process for discriminating the quality of growth and quality of earnings of businesses. I've seen specs and research guys on the sellside push a name to investors because "low leverage facilities buyout optionality" which is just plain wrong.
I also see plenty of mis-modelling on margin flow throughs for businesses undergoing synergy realizations because they haven't seen from the inside how SG&A inflates due to all the cost centers you're forced to setup because you're chasing growth.
The starkest contrast however is this unprofound fear of high gearing in many public companies despite excellent interest coverage ratios. The public market investor doesn't solve for the optimal cap structure, they run screens on high leverage relative to industry peers and for that reason it falls in to a high gearing basket and trades down when rates were going up regardless if Levered FCF yield > Unlevered FCF yield which implies you should increase gearing and you're blessed with +10 yr maturity TLBs. That's an extreme example but you get my point.
With that said, all these nuances averages out. Skillsets converge over time.
The best platform PMs I've seen haven't really had PE experience, so end of the day is all about how your process enables you to make $$. The rest is just how you market yourself.
Ugh this sounds too familiar. Not to mention how in PE, it's too easy for fingers to be pointed downwards despite clear evidence
I would say HF if you really have a passion for public equities, and generally enjoy doing stock research, etc. If you don't have a genuine interest, however, you won't become that rockstar PM.
Pick what you enjoy doing, and make sure that the ceiling of potential earning is high enough for your liking. I see that generally it's higher on average in PE, but of course there are exceptions. You can always try it out for a few years and boomerang back to PE if you hate it.
friend was at a really good quant HF shop. He noted that people tended to retire before 40.
Last I heard, making partner at 40 in PE is still considered young?
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