P72 Academy vs Citadel CAP vs Weiss vs DE Shaw
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If you’re a risk taker want to make “it” quick and fast do P72, if not do Weiss. Citadel program sucks and DE Shaw is overhyped weird place for a fundamental l/s + ft conversion very low.
interesting, thank you. also how much should i consider strategy cause it def seems like a weiss is much more quantiative driven than like a cit/p72.
I don’t know how quantitative they are but knowing their interview process is quite rigorous and really test your raw intelligence vs something “preppable”, you should be fine so just go with what interest you the most.
Pretty sure they’re good at what they’re doing but I’m not a big fan of doing semi-quant at a non-quant focus place knowing how much $$ competitors spent on infra/talent.
Del
What? If you want to be a risk taker, definitionally go to a seat that puts you in a risk taking seat and pays you as such. Citadel analysts manage sleeves (and the analysts I know there run sleeves much larger than the other pods) and get paid formulaically on that.
If you want to be a risk taker, I’d argue Citadel is a much better seat. If you’re newer and could benefit from a longer training academy, then P72 or BAM Bridger could be better.
Bruh, are you even in the industry? You join citadel as “program” associate. After the training, you do associate years, senior associate’s, then analyst to manage your own sleeve. That’s like at fastest pace, takes 3-4 years. It sounds like you’re thinking you get to manage sleeve out of these program, which is not true.
ive heard a case where a first year out of P72 academy manages tiny sleeve, probably an exceptional case, team by team, but given how structured Citadel hierarchy is, this won’t likely happen there.
Not saying Citadel is a bad firm, that’s a dead wrong statement. But, their program is not as established as P72 is, and has had numerous turnovers of those managing that
From what my HF buddies have said 72's academy program is lights out the best public markets buyside training for someone fresh out of school. Weiss is an amazing fund and Citadel also great + a better name in the MM space, but I would think in terms of a from 0 start trying to learn and get in the flow with a supportive program that P72 is the probably best option here. I know if I'd known more about it when I graduated I would've gone after it harder than I did IB/PE by several orders of magnitude.
helpful, thanks!
You’re a moron if you think Citadel is worse than DE Shaw or P72. Any real person in this industry can answer the question for you.
You guys have no idea what you’re talking about that’s a pretty insane claim.
thinking in terms of CAP program, curious about your thoughts
Look at the end of the day Citadel is the best platform (for equities) there’s no doubting that. Doesn’t mean the others aren’t good, just that citadel is the best - that’s pretty well understood by most in this business. They pay up for talent and therefore have the biggest clusters of the best PMs and analysts, they’re the best at tracking and measuring everything those PMs and analysts do into one giant feedback loop where the IPs continuously get better at sizing and risk mgmt, they run the biggest books, and perhaps it’s a function of my coverage specifically but they have a lot of guys who just know how to make money and have mastered their coverage.
I don’t know all the intricacies of all these undergrad programs, but my observations are citadel’s program is fewer people and probably more selective. P72’s curriculum is probably a lot more structured, but I’m sure there’s quite a bit of fluff with the basics that you’d probably learn in IBD/corporate finance etc. The job is learned on the desk, not in a classroom. So I’m not sure how incremental all the extra months of training are. At the end of the day, the goal is to land on the best team possible, learn how to become a good analyst, and eventually become a risk taker. Think one clearly stands out among the ones you asked about. They’re both great firms, just saying one is better than the other (putting the training programs aside, since that doesn’t really matter…this is your career, not a college class). You should be looking at this as “which would be better for me to pursue a career”, not “which would be better for me to learn in the first 6 months”. Even then, the answer totally depends on how much knowledge you’re coming in with.
Only 1 person said Citadel's program sucks (and is wrong) and no one said DE Shaw is good, but I don't think the general sentiment most folks are sharing that the P72 Academy program is a more proven starting block than CAP is incorrect. A quick glance at LinkedIn shows 40+ ex-P72ers work at Citadel including 7-8 PMs, their EU and Global heads of equities, and head of trading. So clearly their training environment produces good outcomes and won't cause anything as egregious as preventing a person from moving to Citadel after they've actually gotten good experience. Citadel as a firm is without question the best of the bunch but it's the big boy table and not nearly as forgiving to someone just starting out.
Point72 objectively the best training program — which gives you most career upside going into FT. Don’t think the sleeve stuff / quality of platform matters as much as the training platform you get.
Are the top kids today able to have multiple offers? (Back in the day, at least at my school, that wasn’t the case).
If so, you’re really telling me if a kid had an offer from Point72 and Citadel that they’d take the Point72 offer? I highly doubt it.
I’ve heard of it. I think it depends what you want. Academy you get 6 months of full training and they have infrastructure to pair you with new teams if your pod blows up / if they don’t like you. CAP is how do we get you to the desk asap.
Preference at that point
I think majority of people in this situation lean toward p72 due to the more fleshed out program, higher conversion rates, and career longevity statistics. I don’t get what Citadel offers besides maybe a stronger name? But in reality the decision is on the program not just the firm
But in reality the situation where someone has both is incredibly uncommon and mainly would be because of timing lining up perfectly. The firms are gunning for the same candidates, after all
I agree Citadel as a firm is better than P72, in fact, Kenny G seems to have too much dollars to send his BD minions even to this thread, but no doubt the program itself is a different story.
Citadel
P72
DE Shaw
Weiss
Is the only answer. Though Weiss pays a lot earlier on.
how much does weiss pay? and why do they pay higher?
Curious about the Citadel CAP 26 SA timeline. Have yet to receive anything since submitting the application. At a top target.
Also want to hear more about D. E. Shaw's fundamental, have seen contradictory content on this site. From LinkedIn, there were people completed D. E. Shaw's fundamental summer then went to MF PE full-time.
It’s half full, they are doing hr and Ip interview rounds right now.
Thank you! It's weird that I did not even receive the wonscore test.
MF PE is a meh result who wants to be poor and overworked
Did FE SA at DE Shaw. Will comment that FE is not their bread and butter, unlike C/P72. Doesn't seem like they invest much into training, other than standard 1 week onboarding with external vendor. Also want to comment that DE Shaw's return rates are very low and not the most ideal if you are a penultimate student looking for a FT role
Chances are the interns who went on to MF PE didn't manage to get returns.
Dm me
del
Not saying this is the right choice, but feels like people are undervaluing the EV of a career-track seat at a place like Weiss compared to a pod program that, although undeniably attractive, carries some uncertainty in how the risk model and PM selection shakes out for you.
I might be a bit biased here, but P72 Academy is the best way to start your career if you want to do long/short equity. If you are unlucky with your team placement, you can easily join Citadel. Just do quick search on how many academy people have moved over to citadel.
Also slightly biased here, but had 3 out of the 4 offers and chose to go with the Academy. Honestly didn't really consider DESCO (low returns + not really a MM model) so this is more so my logic between choosing between Citadel and P72. Disagree with the above that CAP is more competitive, personally felt that the P72 process was more rigorous given the case study + my coach round was very technical. My CAP interviews were more vibe checks with the analysts + a couple of high level pitches.
In regards to some factors I considered, 1) Pod placements after the training program mattered the most for me and you have a 80-20 chance of matching with a respectable PM at P72 compared to mediocre placements / getting siloed into Ashler for CAP. 2) Citadel still leans heavily into recruiting from ER, PE, and IB vs the P72 has a more direct pipeline from the academy graduates to top pod seats. 3) Larger P72 Academy class means larger HF network
This is obviously from a training perspective / where to best start your career after grad (analyst experience is a diff debate). Most people I know with both P72 and CAP offers have chose the former as well. I do agree with the above that you should choose a program that is best tailored to how much knowledge you're coming in with. However, for 99% of undergrads, it is safer for the longevity of your career to go through with the Academy. Classroom training is not just academic prep / things they teach you in IB. Instead, you're turning over at least 1 pitch / week and receiving feedback from PMs and coaches — basically learning to pattern match different scenarios that could play out and building a solid foundational base. Again, I am biased but wanted to put my thoughts out there for those who are debating between multiple offers.
thanks for the thoughts. I assume that you had C,P72,DESCO? if not would also like your perspective on weiss. My knowledge of P72 is that they have overly hired in the past 2 years - seems like a rough 40-50 intern class which maybe converts 30/35 ft. And then the number of teams that hire is much less than that. Was told that for previous cohorts of like 20 kids that most people got a match but can't image how it changes with 30 for example. Any thoughts on how that might shake out?
also regarding the P72 interview, that's funny that yours was very technical. Mine was very high level business oriented questions that was much more of a test of how you thought rather than a right answer. No technicals (as in like PE/banking technicals) whatsoever. Would assume that there's implicit bias also based on backgrounds i assume
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