Any other ASOs out there not getting the VP promote due to lack of deal reps?
Ignore title - I'm currently a ASO3 at an EB, I was informed recently that I will not be promoted to VP at year end. My reviews were all decent, no real flags or anything. I've unfortunately only been on one closed sell side, with the rest having been either hung deals or BD. My group hasn't had a ton of deal activity since I joined, and I know other associates in my year group must be in a relatively similar spot. I was told I can repeat my ASO3 year to gain more reps, but I'm not sure what I want to do at this point. Anyone else in a similar spot?
Not in this boat but know others who are — think they’ve been seeking lateral opportunities
This has been a worrisome trend at my bank post-covid. More than half of the analysts and associates who started post 2021 have zero M&A reps. And I’m not even in a bad bank or slow group.
Not sure what could be driving this, other than bloated headcount.
I’ve seen some people (usually in the slower groups) get promoted with very little deal experience. But a lot of them don’t, and some of these people weren’t particularly bad. No choice but to lateral, and try to find a group that is known for getting deal reps
what sector?
This is bs because it’s not their fault they haven’t been staffed on deals that have converted. In reality, ASOs are going to have little to no impact on transactions actually getting done.
The unfortunate reality is that it can both be true it’s not your fault you lack experience, while also not being qualified for the next level as a result of this. Now if these pulled deals all went the distance and it was just the seller who decided to not transact, or minor legal issues etc. then fair enough - this should be written up as fully fledged experience. On the other hand, if the deals barely got past LOI stage then you’ve unfortunately missed a large part of the job (albeit to no fault of your own), and you can’t be trusted to execute end-to-end until you gain additional reps.
Careers aren’t linear and sometimes you get unlucky, how unfair that may be. I think many current Associates haven’t seen this before, but it also happened in 2018/19 when things were temporarily looking softer - and it’ll undoubtedly happen again.
The difference is this has been over a span of 3+ years, not just a one year blip. There must be something structural going on in IB where they are hiring way more people nowadays.
Which bank was this? Red flag IMO
Moelis?
Take the additional year and also simultaneously try to lateral to VP. AND also think about an MBA app
This sounds like some bs . However how are you going to be a. Banker if you don’t do deals?
I am a tech bro and was ina. Small Corp dev team for 2 years and did like 3 deals . By that measure I have more banking experience? How would you be a trusted advisor?
Sorry but this is bad advice. If they are ASO3 with a lack of reps, it’s likely they are an MBA associate. Even if they were not, an MBA would not make sense unless they are trying to lateral out of IB.
Also you would be surprised that the way corp dev teams operate is not the same as being a banker. It can be more, it can be less. On average, it is less rigorous analysis and breadth.
Really sorry to hear that man. Which sector do you cover?
Selfish to say this here, but sometimes I daydream about working on megadeals with sophisticated clients instead of here in the MM with owners who don’t know their financials, P&Ls pulled from QuickBooks, JAMMBOs with unintegrated rollups, etc
But obviously the benefit of dealing with all that is you get a ton of deal reps. If you’re interested at all in MM IB, there’s always a ton of activity here.
Having started my career in MM and moving up to BB as an associate, I don't miss the days of building consolidated P&Ls from fractured QuickBooks outputs... Have definitely seen associates at my firm struggle to land closed deals on their resume, but overall have enjoyed the higher quality and larger transactions. Would tell OP I would probably grind out the third year, but echo others to keep an ear to the ground for VP laterals.
I don’t understand all the negativity or anger here.
They’re basically saying you’re not ready to be a VP but think you can get there with more time, so they’re giving you more time instead of firing you.
You can lateral, but you’ll still have the same issue of not being ready to be a VP and you won’t have 4 years of goodwill built up at the new firm.
Separately, I would also bet that there are others who are getting promoted on time. Instead of getting angry at the firm, look to what your peers who are getting promoted did or are doing that you did not.
Am I missing something here? OP literally said they are letting him repeat a year. What is all this commotion about? 99% of places would have just booted him out, they’re letting him clip another year and make 400K or whatever, OP don’t be delusional.
I wouldn't be so sure their bonus will be very good this year
I don't buy the "not enough deal reps" explanation. What probably happened is they weren't allowed enough promotions to promote everyone who deserved it. And that forced them to have some way of choosing the best performers to promote, which can be hard when the junior IB skill distribution is pretty binary: you're either good or you're not for the most part, so its hard to choose the best among the good.
So being forced to make tough choices, they did the two things people do in that situation: (i) they still made the close call and (ii) they found something objective they can point to, to de-personalize the explanation for those who got the short end. So then they can say its about your reps and not that the other guy is a bit ahead of you on whatever criteria.
Clearly they think you're pretty good, they wouldn't keep you around if they didn't think that. So don't take the non-promote as a negative mark on you. Just don't go too far in the other direction either and tell yourself it's all luck and who got the right deals. There was probably some small performance gap.
As for what to do next, you can go either or both ways. Your standing is probably good enough to make another run at VP. But if there's a good opportunity elsewhere, take it. I'd be testing the market and pursuing opportunities that don't suck up too much time & energy, because you still have a job you can keep.
Does this happen when going from VP to Director too? I assume it's much more common from D to MD but curious about that other layer and what one can do to make sure they aren't held a year back. I would think it's more about commercial potential and relationships than executing deals but who knows.
For VP to Director it's generally a better process. At that point a few things have changed (i) they know you a lot better so there's more faith in their subjective opinions of who you are, (ii) all the VP3s have a critical mass of experience so there's no room for bullshit like "not enough deal reps", (iii) to your point, there's a lot of emphasis on who has shown potential to one day be an MD. You haven't built your own book of clients but you usually have clients throwing in comments on your performance by then.
Agreed, very high chance this was the case. Personally went through this few years ago but managed to bounce back.
OP - most likely VPs above you didn’t get promoted and the turnover is low, plus business management wants the team to limit the promotions due to cost and/or lack of deal flow. You are lucky they are letting you stick around, and I would use that year to lateral to a better shop with promise of a VP promo or just transfer internally. In my case, I was laid off, still paid my full target bonus as they admitted no performance issues. That’s another story that few seniors called me up months later that my MD was forced to make a tough choice to leave a promotion spot open for a DEI Becky. Guess what that Becky bailed on them months later. Anyways, I ended up at another EB and still killing it. Don’t give up, it is all BS politics to appease certain stakeholders. In the long term, if you are committed and competent, you will laugh back at this situation.
I would take this as an indication to start interviewing, whether as intended feedback or not. The VP promotion is as close to a rubber stamp as can be offered. If you're getting held back then I would think that any future progress is in question. Lack of deal experience is grasping at straws for a knock. Easy to rectify with a staffing or two or a kind word from those on high. Different banks show varying levels of bad communication skills when relaying candid feedback so perhaps this could just be tough news delivered unclearly, But honestly even ignoring the validity (or not!) of the assessment / objective performance considerations, I'm more just noting that perception and reputation are almost impossible to change/overcome within a group or bank. At best you'll be fighting your way out of a pit. Much easier to start with a clean slate. Ignore everything I've said if you get paid well (but i doubt that will be the case)
VP promo is a rubber stamp if they have tenure in the team, ie, 5+ years. I feel OP is an MBA Associate. Nothing wrong with being MBA Associate either as plenty of top bankers came from that stream.
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