Know this issue has previously been brought up on this forum - but seems like it’s about to get even worse with the current class of A2As that just got promoted? Not sure if anyone’s seen more analysts stay on to associate than this year… C&R seems to have 50+ associates with the way some accounts have 3(!) associates on them. Even FSG has too many… never seen this before.
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Based on the most helpful WSO content, here's what you need to know about the associate bloat at BofA:
This context suggests that the issue of associate bloat at BofA is indeed significant and has been exacerbated by recent A2A promotions.
Sources: Why are post-MBA associates so bad?, Information on BofA FIG, WTF IS GOING ON WITH MBA ASSOCIATES???, Associates who started as analysts: Why did you stay in IB?, Why has the quality of IB analysts declined?
Bump
Yes. But are you accounting for how many have left and how many won’t get promoted this year?
That’s the problem. They promote everyone and the good associates get frustrated and leave so the remaining talent pool is frankly awful.
Are the good associates able to go buyside? To MM or LMM PE
d
To my knowledge, no one that wanted to stay didn’t get promoted - and tons of analysts stayed on. One of the sweatier groups that usually has 95-100% of their analysts leave had nearly 50% stay this year.
BofA seems to really be paradise because of this bloating, especially if you're a chick. Here's why:
1. Guaranteed promotion to ASO after 2 years of analyst instead of 3. VP promotion is easy to come because all the smart ambitious A&As have left, so they have no choice but to promote you.
1a. A male AN2 or ASO3 going from Capital markets to M&A/FSG will have to repeat a year, yet a woman can get promoted immediately to ASO or VP despite having 0 prior experience.
2. Work 9-6 hours, order some dinner at 7, saving tons of money. Weak deal flow so can go on dates with rich, old money PE/PC/HF guys at 8-9pm on weekdays.
2a. On most Thursdays and Valentine’s Days, girls sprint out of the office at 7pm, while dudes reluctantly cancel their dates and stay behind and turn comments past 10pm. Dudes don't go on dates except Saturday night.
3. No weekend work because of no deals. If there is, just punt to the dudes as the dudes are more prone to getting laid off anyway. Not to mention every damn deal team is over staffed.
4. Since teams are so large and bloated, can just show up late (10am), leave early (6:30pm), and coast and no one would know. So easy to hide when your team has 60 people.
5. Decent bonus for amazing WLB (excluding M&A, FIG and REGLL), since Bank of America the bank is doing well.
6. BofA brand name is too strong if you want to exit to non MF, finance adjacent roles that pay astronomical amount of money without doing actual work. Actually why would people even exit BofA when they get paid so much and working so little anyway?
It's definitely a dream to come to Bank of America to get paid as much as possible while minimizing hours clocked in!
Was this from personal experience?
Yes and that’s a trend across the street. The more woke the bank is, the more you can get away with as a chick
The amount of details either means commenter is the girl doing it or commenter got dumped by a fellow asso dating old rich guys. 😂
Delete
Do you see any associates going buyside, if so, what roles?
Pretty sexist comment but there’s some truth in it. This applies to both guys and girls in slow groups at BofA
bump
Bump
I can explain what’s going on. Basically the bank is very disparate in terms of lifestyle depending on what group you are in, and the investment banking arm is heavily mismanaged. Anecdotally, I work in one of the “sweatier” groups at BofA that brings in a disproportionate amount of the deals, and we have ~25 associates in our group. Groups like C&R and TMT easily have 60+ associates and bring in almost no deals. See the problem?
- Group A essentially works “street” hours and closes deals, but gets paid like shit in return in order to subsidize the groups that don’t produce. The top/middle performers leave, due to frustration with comp and the fact they have enough deal reps to leave. Hence, the talent pipeline dries up and the “sewer” of bottom performers gets larger and larger.
-Group B is very slow and bloated. Sure, bonus is terrible but when you work 9-6, get the dinner and Uber, and call it a night for a $200k base… why leave? These people also don’t get deal experience so they can’t leave even if they tried… and BofA won’t fire anyone so the group continues to bloat larger and larger.
I am not convinced this model is good for anyone. It’s bad for the bank because it hollows out the talent pipeline. It’s bad for the competent associates in the sweaty groups because they’re being criminally underpaid and overworked. It’s bad for the associates in the slow groups (in the long term) because they aren’t getting deal experience. And it’s bad for all associates because no one is getting paid even close to street level.
In my opinion, the only solutions are to i) fire poor performers, and/or ii) make the bonus pools for groups that produce significantly higher than the groups that don’t. HR and seniors are aware of this issue, but nothing is done about it. I’m not 100% sure why but I suspect it has something to do with very senior leadership being judged by metrics other than fees & efficiency (ie layoffs would be bad optics and would essentially be an admission that BofA’s growth strategy isn’t materializing). So they decide to push the problem down the road and pay everyone poorly in the hopes people will quit on their own. Or they are just a massive corporation that doesn’t want to deal with conflict.
Interested to hear others” perspectives on this or if other large banks experience this issue as severely. I know for a fact all other BBs at least laid off a handful of associates post-covid, and BofA is the only bank that did not.
Similar story at Wells Fargo. FIG / REGAL / E&P subsidizing many of the groups
Sucks. From what I heard though, WF paid fairly decent? Associates at BofA (not bottom bucket) were getting 40-70k bonuses, including the ones in busy groups.
the subsidizing bad groups at the bank has always been a hot topic. the rebuttal from senior execs is that "all industries are cyclical...so when group A has a bad year you'll appreciate and receive the subsidy at some point"
However, this is not how it works in reality. there are legacy teams that always produce and find a way to bring in revenue. the weak coverage teams historically stay that way....
also really hard for first year AN / AS to see the bum teams leave at 6 PM and get paid the same. I don't think this is a sustainable comp strategy for any bank. the immediate reaction is "im getting screwed and should lateral"
They should start staffing the bums on the busy teams and say they’ll repay the favor later when the bums start bringing in deals… why even divide by industry verticals…
Completely agree. I just left the bank, but half the associates I worked with were less than competent and it was incredibly frustrating to know that there was nothing being done about it. At some point something’s going to have to happen because groups can’t be having 30 VPs at once…
Why aren’t they firing then? What a stupid model.
Bad optics. It’s the right thing to do though
...
Sir, would you your meal to go or have it here?
Said this before and will say it again… if you are a decent senior associate, mid-senior VP - LEAVE NOW while you can unless you are 100% getting promoted.
Your competitors are hiring (while less active, they still are), and the pay is much higher. Comp was shit in 22 and 23, and would not be surprised if it is shit again in 24…
The firm will always feed their MDs and analysts first before the middle. Analyst bonuses are out today and at similar levels (higher in some cases) than what some associates and vps made a few months ago. Happy for the analysts but you are getting fucked. Might as well go somewhere you’ll actually get paid
Yup. I am waiting until the VP promotion and leaving immediately after bonus (even though it’ll be shit). Know a bunch of my peers are doing the same. Assoc 1s and 2s should get out asap
Hmm maybe this is why BofA associates sound so sad whenever I get to speak with them on a networking call. Hey maybe that's a warning sign. I'm lateraling somewhere else then lol. Cool people though.
As you should. VP bonuses weren't much higher than analyst bonuses. If you are a VP at BofA, you should consider going to JPM, MS or GS. They are slowly starting to hire VPs again (and Directors in some cases) and provide fat guarantees - in some cases, larger than your last three years' bonuses combined. If you're going to slave away and pick up after shitty Associates and EGRC all day, may as well get paid for it.
You need Carl Icahn to come in there and just get rid of all the bloat like he did when he fired 12 floors of people for doing nothing all day.
Half the associate 3 class is at risk of getting RIF’d. Especially in groups like TMT and C&R. Cant have these people as VPs, they cant do the job
Agreed… some groups are properly staffed (mainly HC and GIG who brought in all the deals last year and got paid like garbage for it, so everyone quit). But the groups you mentioned are absolutely in trouble. It’s not unusual to see 3rd year associates in those groups who never worked on a CIM.
All women will make VP though don’t worry
Anecdotally, an MBA associate who was fired from my bank for complete nonperformance pivoted to BofA and got a promotion at the same time. So this generally tracks.
That’s insane but also tracks given how terrible some of the 2021/2022 ZIRP laterals are…
Low standards = low pay
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