banker career/lifestyle....not all that great? worth it?
Part of why people go into banking vs. any typical "finance analyst" role is the lifestyle. However realistically, what is the point of having an amazing apartment, if you never spend any time in it. I mean I'm not going to rent a 5000/month penthouse if I come home every night and pass out on my bed. How often do people have time to go to clubs and get tables, when you are working 80-100 hour weeks. From the time I spend as a summer analyst, most departments are not filled with the craziest party animals, many are quite nerdy/shy and/or int'l. (And after working in banking , your only friends will be bankers!). I know that a few groups have a much more "fratty" culture where people tend to be more social after hours, but the majority of groups are rather diverse, in all regards. One fellow intern tried alcohol for the first time at our company party, even after being in college for three years.
As far as I'm concerned, analysts and associates pretty much work the same hours, associates probably have a lighter load on the weekends, but any busy group, will have associates staying till midnight or later on a nightly basis. The only real lifestyle change probably happens at the VP level when your job role shifts towards bringing business in, weekends drop off, but in that case, you start traveling like crazy during the week.
...People talk about doing banking just until going to "buy-side", with less hours and equivalent pay, but unfortunately not everyone gets an opportunity to go to buy-side. For example, out of the twelve analysts in a group I interned with, only four got "legit" exit opps in PE/HF, 2 stayed on for a third year and are incredibly depressed, and the other six picked up general finance roles at typical companies taking a huge paycut, one guy went be a worker at Training the Street. Remind you that these guys had great deal flow and went to top schools! Even when you get to PE/HF, hours may be much less, but stress levels/responsibilities are sky high. Finnaly most places kick you out after two years, until you get an mba. FYI- getting into a top mba school is not easy!! Finally getting a PE/HF job after b-school is even harder because they are making a long term commitment to you, and the competition within each b-school is cut throat.
As far as prestige goes, first lets say that bankers will never have the prestige of doctors, firefighters, scientists, judges (not lawyers lol), and some politicians and other doing-good for humanity professions. Second, I don't think the general public has any idea the difference between banking and general financial analyst roles, girls certainly don't know the difference Most don't understand the difference between retail and investment banks, they think you work the same place where people deposit their weekly paychecks. not to mention the difference between back and front office, operations vs. IB, most think its all the same. ....And if you put prestige aside, then you can earn a great salary running a small business, for example- my 26 year old cousin owns two verizon franchise stores (running a cell phone store isn't rocket science) and makes 350K a year, hired store managers and now is working only 20-30 hours a week, real estate investing on the side just for fun because he doesn't know what else to do with all his extra cash, while his job is not dealmaking, he is happy and living the life, he has time to go out at night, and go out to dinner, have friends, hamptons in the summer, miami breaks in winter, int'l vacations, and when he goes to work everyday he is the boss. nobody to answer to.
My question is now that the "prestige" of banking is no longer there, the bonuses sure ain't what they used to be, and exit opps are harder and harder to get, ibanking decreases your chances at b-school due to the overabundance of ibanking applicants, and the lifestyle kills your social/relationship life.....is banking worth it? 9/10 of people are in it for the money, prestige, and so-called lifestyle, not because they like sitting in a cubicle staring at an excel spreadsheet.
your cousin at verizon has maxed out at 350k. an ibanker can top that easily by 26, if they're good...
bleedblue82, you are comparing apples to oranges. with cell phone stores, its actually its just a matter of opening new franchise stores to earn more money. there are guys older than him that have a mini-empire of stores just like any small franchise. However that will require more work and will make it harder for him to vacation as much as he does, and he happy making 350k working only 20-30 hours a week, rather than opening 15 locations and working 60 hours a week.
Second, remember that bonuses get taxed at different rates than actual income, thus 350k in banking, verses, 350k in actual salary income are far different.
Third, there is a huge difference in hours required. keyword: hours!
Finally, after a certain salary, I would say about 500,000 dollars, your lifestyle doesn't change much, especially if you are single. My cousin realized that there isn't much he would want that you can't afford on 350k salary that you can afford with a 1Mil+ salary. A lot people don't realize this, but after a while, buying more clothes, going out every night, living in a huge apartment which you are never in, it gets old just like everything else. 5000 rolex vs. 50000 rolex, whatever its still a rolex, it still tells time. 1 bedroom apartment vs. 4 bedroom apartment, are you going to that much happier knowing that you live in an apartment that has three bedrooms which you don't use?
What doesn't get old is the freedom of being your own boss, making your own hours, and having good friends to share your money with. Two things banking fails to provide.
Go into IB for the right reasons
Prestige is in the eye of the beholder. You call doctors prestigious, I call them drug dealers/pimps with white coats. Politicians and doing good for humanity?! It took George Bush 5 days to get down to Katrina victims but he could get our troops over to Iraq within 12 hours to fight terrorists (hem hem oil money). Once again in the eye of the beholder. A lawyer and judge let OJ walk...enough said. Bottom line is don't look at the money, look at getting a job first and proving yourself. Wall Street doesn't just hand out 7 figure bonus checks, you have to eat what you kill. As someone mentioned before you cannot compare a franchise owner to an Investment Banker. An I-banker that works on deals and works on getting his bank deals can easily have a million dollar comp package by the time he's 30. Don't start blowing your money on cars, watches, parties and women and you can easily retire at 35. Can your buddy at Verizon say that?
[quote=lg0718 An I-banker that works on deals and works on getting his bank deals can easily have a million dollar comp package by the time he's 30. Don't start blowing your money on cars, watches, parties and women and you can easily retire at 35. Can your buddy at Verizon say that?[/quote]
Speak for yourself bud, the minute I get a million dollar comp package I'm going to take 100k and blow it with reckless abandon.
hellonyc great post, I agree 100%. all these others guys are missing the point and getting hung up on this verizon example, prob b/c it is surprising to hear of average joes earning crazy salaries in simple mom&pop shops, but again verizon just an example.
The bottom line its not about competition or excuses. Its about making sure that you are in this business for the right reason, 95% of guys are in this business for the wrong reason. ...very few will become big deal makers, KKR/blackstone partners, or whomever else is idolized in this industry. many will just make some big bucks for a few years and get burnt out and move on to another "typical" general job. others will stick it out and will put their career before their friends/wives or whatever, and often end up unhappy. Everyone is different. Also, not everyone is willing to sacrifice money to do what they "love", and vice versa. Nobody wants to admit that they are motivated by money or prestige, everyone likes to say this is passion in life or some other b.s. like that. Its hard for someone to attend a school like harvard/wharton, and then open a verizon store, when all their friends are doing big and high profile things. We don't like to admit it, but we care about what others think, what our families, our friends think. its human nature.
Money isn't everything, it just gets the most focus because of its flash and tangibility (ie $5 > $4 by definition). I think most people on these forums would give up half their salary if it meant being guaranteed finding a loving wife to start a great family--in other words a happy family with no divorces, traumas (like none of the kids dying prematurely), etc. It's these uncertain factors like having a great family and being of good health (not getting cancer at a young age) that we would like to ensure but of course can't. As a result, we search for certainty in our lives and find it in the pursuit of wealth, which banking allows us to do at a young age and with a somewhat level degree of certainty. Becoming rich is one of those things in life that practically no one would not want to become. It's the simple fact that (we think) more is greater than less, in this case more wealth > less wealth, so it seems obvious to pursue a high paying job even though this is not what might make us most happy (in the short and long term). At a young age, most bankers just think about getting into IB as a starting point known for its strong exit opportunities. In other words, we put gaining valuable work experience and wealth at the top of our lists, ahead of balanced social lives and sometimes even our health. Eventually though, in our 30s and 40s, we realize that somewhere along our priorities comes finding a wife and starting a family (for most of us, at least) and that simply working long hours, while it can still be our number one priority in order to become rich, is not enough in that now we have to decide which of the remaining parts of our lives are most important relative to our careers and how to rank them accordingly. And in the end, "life is what slips through the cracks as everything else going on in our lives passes by."
As long as there are successful people, there will be fat, bitter and mediocre people resenting them for being everything they're not. They at some point in their lives come to the same realization Henry Hill came to at the end of Goodfellas, which was "I'm an average nobody. I get to live the rest of my life like a schnook." And they need to find someone to blame.
Its my view that banking, or any other ambitious life trajectory, is ESPECIALLY worth it in this environment. Because I look around and see what a fucking schmuck I would be if I were like everyone else.
Here goes a book... and not because I need to defend myself, but because I think I have a perspective a lot of people can relate to but can't necessarily put their finger on.
I don't look down on "ordinary" people. I am an ordinary person. I just have a general distaste for ignorance, laziness and entitlement. The last of which is all too prevalent on Wall Street, as well as other places. And your “average” person is all of the above. They are lazy from adolescence and beyond. They spend their formative years picking their nose and smoking pot. Once they reach a certain age they are forced to do something. Maybe they get a college degree, but most don't. They work in sales at a cable company, as a manager at a warehouse or in corporate offices at an electronics company. It has nothing to do with their job or what they do. In fact, they chose their particular profession because thats what happened to wander in their direction. This is all fine. I have no beef with it, nor should anyone really give a shit if someone does have beef with it. Everyone has their own priorities and makes their choices accordingly. There’s nothing wrong with choosing a less financially lucrative career if that’s just not as important to you as say spending time with your family or reading literature or traveling or even sitting on the couch watching college football. To each his own.
My issue is the lazy useless people -- who are a subset of the population, but are representative of the average person -- who have a feeling of entitlement and a 'what about me' mentality. This is why people are sued over stupid bullshit. This is why when someone wins the lottery or has some other windfall family/friends start coming out of the woodwork with their expectant hands out. Then you come to things like record oil company profits, wall street bonuses etc... the average American has absolutely no understanding of the actual issues and complexity surround them yet has a barrel full of opinions they’re dying to express. Not because they contributed something that isn’t being recognized or acknowledged… but because someone else is doing well and they are there to say “what about me, why am I not doing well? It must be because the system is unfair. I’m being exploited.”
“Main street” as people call it, is still completely clueless to the fact that wall street “Bonuses” are not actual bonuses per se. Its largely a misnomer and what everyone refers to as a bonus is mostly accrued salary. No analyst is going to work 100 hrs a week for 50-70K a year. And no Senior banker is going to work for 300K where they could actually be making a multiple of that if they were working in another capacity, such as a C-level executive of a major corporation. Part of the bonus is in fact a bonus. But to be up in arms because someone made a “Bonus” in a non-profitable year is demonstrative of a lack of understanding of the industry. There has been an uproar about bonuses even before the financial crisis. It made the front cover of the news papers 2 or 3 years ago when GS had record bonuses. Yet I do agree that there are serious flaws in the system and share concern in some of the criticisms going around.
Wall Street compensation is what it is for a few reasons in particular:
1- it’s a very competitive field with only the most accomplished (i.e. best schools, best grades, best experience) being hired 2- you make a significant lifestyle sacrifice, at ALL levels Analyst to MD 3- it’s a high pressure job; most of the people on this forum don’t realize the full magnitude of this because we are tuned to work in this type of field. Most people go through the motions expending minimal effort at work, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that in this field. 4- There is a huge amount of risk to working in this field. There is a huge degree of volatility in hiring/firing, NOTHING is guaranteed. You have the least job security of any other professional field hands down. Even in an ideal economy from the day you start working, its only a 2 year program, then you’re jobless again. Then you land another gig, but guess what thats 2 year program also, then you’re jobless again. At a more senior level, obviously the finite programs aren’t the case, but the lack of job security surely is.The public sees Wall Streeter’s making bank and they don’t want to hear any of the above reasons. They bitch and complain when their boss asks them to stick around past 5:30 but they somehow see big Wall Street bonuses and feel like they’re being had… like someone is taking THEIR piece of the pie.
I don't think I'm gods gift to earth because I work in IBD. I actually don't think there is anything exceptionally difficult about it, nor do I think it alone says anything about you. Anyone with average intelligence and above average ambition can do it. Some of the people I’ve met would even lead one to believe anyone even with below average intelligence, below average ambition and enough social pressure can do it. But regardless of whether I went into IBD, the Peace Corps, BigLaw, entrepreneurship, engineering, philosophy, academia, I would be just as passionate and driven in what I do and I would find it just as rewarding and if one day I woke up I didn’t, I would not look for someone else to point the finger at. There are people who are college professors, grade school teachers, office secretaries, cab drivers, waiters, steel workers, train conductors etc… and they choose this path because they have a different set of priorities. I don’t think I’m better than them because I make more money or because I wear a suit to work. I respect people who have self-respect and are true to themselves and aren’t trying to sell themselves a bill of goods on why the world isn’t a fair place (which its not, but this country is the best you’ll get) and that’s why they’re not happy.
Your average person is unambitious. They spend their lives believing that they ARE different… they ARE smarter than everyone else, there is something special about them that makes them different. They go through the motions in life thinking ‘”I’m smart, I can do whatever I want to do if I really want to do it” then one day, they wake up… they’re married to a spouse they partially resent and they have a job they absolutely despise… its then that they realize they actually CANT, they ARE like everyone else... and not because they were born that way, but because their choices made them who they are today. They are where they are because they spent the better part of their life being lazy and expecting something spectacular to happen to them because they ‘deserve’ it. Rather than embracing reality, they cling to crutches offered to them by politicians who want their vote and convince themselves that they COULD have achieved their dreams, but they were short-changed, they were exploited. It’s a broken system run by corrupt thieves. The rich are getting richer at their expense.
That’s my view. You can think its immature if you like. I have this view, among other reasons, because many of my best friends are of this persuasion, I know them well, I’ve known them well for a long time. We came from the same place, we ended up in largely different places… with the only difference being hard work.
Its "hear hear" u idiot
Sacrificing too much to be a banker? (Originally Posted: 07/30/2015)
Came across an old Reddit TIFU post: An Australian banker was devastated to find out that he had given up his whole life for a "9-7 job" . The fact that his wife had been cheating on him for 10 years was just the tip of the iceberg.
Thoughts monkeys? For the older folks on the forum, do you feel like you are sacrificing too much choosing banking as your career? Any advice on how to manage life and expectations later in life?
Original: http://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/2livoo/tifu_my_whole_life_my_regr…
9-7 job ... Lol
No offense, but this guy seems like a real pussy who likes to lay blame elsewhere. His job did not ruin his life, he did. Plenty of people work more than that and their kids don't hate them.
Gentlemen,
I believe the realization that he was married to a whore who would go live out her anal fantasies with the entire city's baseball team while he was busy building a future for his family is the one and only reason why this man is down. I really am very sorry for him and hope he gets his and his kids' lives turned around. His wife is already in he'll obviously and a childish, evil person he shouldn't even talk to anymore. I hope she dies in a terrible fire.
In my view, this guy would be bitter having found out his wife cheated on him in a lot of other job scenarios. "My wife cheated on me and that made me realise that I squandered my life as a DEVGRU operator" is a thread you may see elsewhere. Again, not all in that guy's life is bad; it's just that the rotten soul of that bitch in heat he opted to marry that ended up doing what was bound to happen in 100% of all scenarios: temporarily upgrade the little self-worth she had left in her, with those fading prom queen looks and nothing else to base her elevated ego on, by humping that personal trainer while hubby was working with "these complicated numbers." She was obviously not loved enough - maybe this was a communication issue in the relationship, maybe hers was a lost case.
Boys, take this as a warning. The decision whom you'll marry will by far be the most important one you will make. Don't just go after the next dumb blonde in the club and end up on reddit 15 years lager. Marry for character. This guy's post would have never occurred with a self-confident, mature, loving wife that is able to express her feelings.
In love, m2
I saw this on FB also. Although I doubt it's real, this guy just needs to grow a sack and get over his mid-life crisis. Plenty of people work a lot, have a wife and kids and still find time for all of them. I know personally. I'd like to see my kids more but que sera.
What this guy really needs to do is go to the gym, buy an exotic sports car and an in-town condo, get scrips for both propecia and and viagra and start nailing as many 25 yr olds as possible. Enough gin and meaningless sex with women whose bodies haven't yet started drooping will get anyone over the hump. And then be the Disneyland dad who takes their kids to all of the cool stuff without being the person who has to discipline them.