Building senior relationships/relationships in general
Hi everyone,
Had my mid year as an AN1 recently, and an informal sitdown with my staffer. There was a comment that I could make more of an effort into building senior relationships/could be more social in general. For context, we do rotations so we will get our permanent desk after the end of our rotations.
Initially I did talk to most people in the team but after there wasn't really much reciprocity and other people just coming in and not really speaking to others apart from a few select people (incl. the Senior Analyst who pretty much only speaks to one person), I felt awkward just going up to people and striking up conversation for no reason because it would so quickly just be like "Hi how are you, how was your weekend? Good thanks, what's up?". Straight to the point, no real interest in having much of a chat. I just felt after a certain point that I'd just give in as much as I got back - but apparently this has been the complete wrong approach. I did raise that I was even told by another Senior Analyst (who's now left) that there is no need to go grab coffees with people all the time and just let these things develop and how he'd basically not gotten coffees with anyone, and I told my staffer this and said that this was "different" because they had permanent seats whilst I, for now, do not, and need to be in "sell mode" - but I don't feel really comfortable in doing that because it feels like I am being inauthentic, and that this would be seen as inauthentic by everyone else too.
For Senior relationships, it feels even more awkward to just walk up to them and strike up a conversation. How do you usually cultivate and maintain relationships with them? My manager apparently thought I was upset or something because I came in on some random Friday during the Holidays half-day and sat down and left after a few hours without saying anything to anyone. But the thing is, it was empty, really quiet, and everyone were just staring at their screens so I thought "ok, I don't want to disturb anyone so I'll just do my work and go".
Appreciate any tips here. I have a few more months left of my rotation and want to hammer down being able to come back here.
Thanks!
Set up time on the seniors calendar to chat about whatever your working on or to ask for career advice. I promise seniors don't bite and 90% of seniors want to give you advice/help you out because A) people for the most part like feeling like they are important, and someone asking for my advice makes me feel important, B) we all had our mentors and those that helped us on our journey upwards, so there's some sense of giving back involved as well.
Thanks for your comment. I guess it feels a bit weird to just set something up in a Director's or so's calendar after having pretty much no conversation with them. Is this not an issue at all?
Not at all, most of us are happy to chat to our juniors. It also is helpful for us to be close to our analysts as we also want to know what those who work with us think. It's a small world; good chance our analysts will be our clients in the semi-long long-run. Generally, though, most seniors want to help. I would suggest doing this with whatever seniors you are staffed with. I sometimes set up junior chats with my analysts and associates that I work with often/more than once, in part because my previous seniors did them, but I am more than happy to have analysts set up similar things with me. I also think it's pretty helpful for me as well; sometimes the juniors have unique angles on how they think and/or things to add to things like comps for example that I might not be as familiar with + again good to connect with the people I depend on to do the analysis and who work long hours in part because of me.
I can't emphasise this enough - it always surprises me how little juniors ever ask for advice either about business or just corporate life (e.g. how review systems work)
Senior people naturally like juniors that are doing a good job/working on a deal with them. The best way to build senior relationships is:
i) Do an incredible job on deals/projects with said senior people
ii) Show that you are very interested in any task given by the senior person
iii) When working on projects deals with said senior person, there will be times when you have time to chat. When there are silences/downtimes, just talk to them the way you would with a normal person. If you show promise as a junior, they will naturally make an effort to speak with you and share things about their lives.
After you have worked on enough projects with said senior person, and follow 1 - 3, you will definitely be liked by said senior person. However, if you make a lot of fuck ups, said senior person may not like you regardless of how personal you are.
Thanks for this. This was also the tip given to me by the Sr Analyst whose left but the problem is that the rotations aren't that long so I don't have too long left in the team so there weren't many chances to work directly with a Senior. Mostly it's been with an ASO or sometimes VP.
I disagree with this. I think the highly upvoted nature of this comment reflects that this server is mostly made up of juniors who are fairly naive/new to the industry. There is a big difference between someone liking you personally vs your work. There's a reason work politics exists and a lot of subpar people end up getting promoted; corporate America is just a likeability game and as long as your work is passable the things that are often used to determine who gets promoted is who's backing you and what people think of you as a person. Corporate America including high finance roles where it's difficult to assess junior value (IB and PE) truly is very much a political game until you either get to the point you start generating business in IB or to the point you are leading your deals in PE (even then it's a politics game as PE investments are fairly longer term).
This guy gets it. "Hey, can I throw some time on your calendar? Looking for some career advice and mentorship." It's really that simple. And if they're a douche about it, you dodged a bullet.
Ken Griffin spoke at Yale. “So much of your career will come down to mentorship and apprenticeship… My sharpest young colleagues gravitate toward those colleagues who invest their time in them… You need to find yourself in relationships where someone takes an interest in you—someone who is going to push you.”
It goes without saying, say hi to everyone, make small talk at events, in the pantry, wherever you can. However, senior people only care about two things,1) their deliverables, 2) their pnl. If as a junior, you are helping them on both of these, they will naturally like you and give you an opportunity to get to know them. This is not a charity, this is a cut-throat industry. You need a combination of being cut-throat and being competent/likeable to get far here.
In Investment Banking, at a decent shop, being liked can only get you so far if you can't do the work. I have many years of experience so that's why I feel so strongly about this, and I have personally made relationships with some of the hardest hardos, and being competent is what gave me the opportunity to form these bonds. If you're an incompetent analyst, even if you butter up to the MD (if they even have time for said analyst, like I said senior people in shops I have worked at are busy and want to get home asap to their families or to do other things), said analyst will get torn apart in reviews by fellow associates/vps.
If you are able to get by in a decent banking group by just being liked, then you have hit the lotto because I don't think it happens. The industry is too competitive and juniors are too replaceable for this.
I echo what some of the other guys said about setting time up in people's calendars. Even if your group isn't "political", this kind of stuff really matters, just working hard and delivering is not enough. A lot of mid level and senior guys would be happy to give you advice if they see initiative, at least in my experience.
My old firm had a rotational program and the people that made good impressions were the ones who did this. They ended up getting to pick seats outside of the regular process because the groups they made the effort with pushed for them.
When I started, a piece of advice I was given was to try and spend time with anyone you've worked with. For example, when I was in coverage, I'd reach out to people in M&A, ECM/DCM, LevFin, any group we transacted with after a deal went through. Those people are now all over and its a really easy reachout to catch up.
I continue to do that now with lawyers, accountants, FDD and other external parties etc. Even buyside parties who don't make the cut on bids. It's a really easy way to widen your network.
What do you discuss when reaching out to counterparts?
I assume trying to get to know one another on a personal level and/or talking about the deal experience.
I feel it's the quality of the conversation that ultimately converts into a meaningful relationship?
Typically connected with the juniors (analysts and associates) I worked with up to the senior guys who I actually interacted / communicated with. Sometimes it went up to VP, other times D or MD. Very situational.
For the juniors, no specific agenda really. Usually flowed from all the funny / shitty things we experienced on the transaction and bitching about senior bankers to "what are you working on". Just casual conversation.
For the senior guys, it was usually just expressing interest in the kind of work they do and asking for advice. Typical coffee chat stuff but with more familiarity. Response rates varied but still not bad.
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