Current IBankers: What would you do if a summer candidate reneged another offer to sign with your firm?
There was an earlier thread that mentioned more and more people felt that it was OK to renege an offer, especially in a recruiting timeline that's so butchered and prolonged (Apparently March - Present). Coming from an undergraduate student's POV, it seems that it would make sense to take an offer at a better firm. That being said, the only thing stopping many students in this position is the fear of losing both offers and the other bank finding out.
I wanted to ask any people in industry if they've ever experienced a situation where a summer analyst, FT analyst, or even associate reneged an offer at another bank to join your firm or vice versa. Were you aware that they had already signed an offer during the interview process? Did you feel that it was wrong of the candidate to do this? Was it the other bank that communicated with you? How did it play out?
Looking back, I can remember one defined situation where I was "that person" who called a colleague at another bank to inform them that a candidate reneged an offer from us to sign with them. Before I get attacked, here are the details: A student was interviewing with us for a summer analyst position in one of the more recent, early timelines, and he did really well through the interview process. After calling him to notify him of his offer, he requested to call numerous times to have any remaining questions answered. It was about 3 hours total in time spent on the phone, and he ended up signing on the last day of the exploding offer.
Three days later, he emailed me "Hello XXXX, I wanted to inform you that I have signed an offer with XXX firm. Due to personal circumstances, I will not be joining your firm next summer." No apology, no explanation, no response to my email when I asked him for more specifics. Even if we "don't care" because analysts are essentially replaceable, it's irking to invest so much time answering questions and even interviewing just for something like this to happen. I was always told to never renege and a contract is a contract, but it seems this has become less meaningful. Thus, I ended up calling a friend, who reported it to their HR, and the candidate was left with no offers on the table from either firm. I'm sure word broke out about this to other firms as I'm in a regional branch where we're all interconnected.
Glad you could get that off your chest. Must have been weighing on you. Still wouldn’t have done that to some kid you barely knew.
I mean are you proud you did this?
I'm not proud of it by any means, but I don't believe I'm in the wrong for it. At the end of the day, I wasn't the first person he reached out to, and in the end, it was only my choice to inform someone else. There had to be a cascade of effects for him to get reneged.
You seem to be trying to distance yourself from this but it’s at least partially on you for screwing over this kid
You sir, are a classic piece of shit.
Oh my goodness you had to spend extra time answering someone's questions while recruiting them. It's not like that's literally your job or anything if you're involved with recruiting. Still sad.
What you did was 1000x worse and more embarrassing than the poor kid who just took the better offer at a better firm. Shameful.
That's quite a dick move (imho).
Before everyone calls the OP a jerk, keep in mind that by allowing that SA to enter the industry you're effectively blocking someone else out. There may have been a very good kid who just missed the cutoff because of this SA who stole his spot initially (before he lost both spots).
I mean do you want this SA working alongside you? I hate the recruitment timeline that's been implemented more than anyone, but this problem of mismatching offer dates has always existed and it didn't make reneging ok five years ago...
Sooo let me get this straight.... beating out another candidate for an offer = stealing their spot and breaking into an industry when others fall short = blocking someone out? Whole rebuttal seems half baked. The kid is obviously good enough to have a spot evidenced by receiving two offers. OP shouldn’t have stabbed a rando in the back for taking an offer at a better firm. OP should also not care so much about career decisions made by 20 y/os they barely know.
Yes, there are a limited number of spots... So if you give to one guy, someone else is effectively blocked out.
The SA was not acting with respect and arguably received what was coming to him.
Think about this in reverse. An MD gives you an offer to work as an analyst for him, then he reneges to offer to someone else with no explanation. That MD acted unethically In the same way that the SA did and I wouldn't hold it against someone for warning others about the MD.
Banks hire SA's to figure out who they want to take on full time. Would you want to take on this SA full time? He sounds disrespectful and deceitful (and dumb) to me. The OP probably helped her friends out by pointing out the flaws of the SA before they wasted a spot on a disrespectful candidate.
And yes, some other kid who was on the cusp probably just got into the industry. I hope it was a good kid.
He didnt really stab him in the back, more of stabbed him im the front
Are you ever involved with recruitment/interview of any members of the management team at Portfolio Cos? Do you feel the same way when hiring for your PortCos?
I have not been involved in hiring for portfolio company management teams. However I think at the management team level, reneging on an offer would be a much more serious thing. Typically those contracts have non-compete provisions in them anyway, which isn't applicable at the Analyst/Associate level. If someone signed to join as CFO of a company I was managing, then cancelled to join a competitor, that would be a pretty major issue.
My comments were more oriented toward keeping everyone's thoughts in perspective about the net effect of what the OP did rather than just thinking about the SA in isolation while ignoring the benefit to the next person in line. I don't think I would interfere with someone who reneged because I'd just be creating an enemy who I couldn't do business with later. I likewise don't think what the OP did was prudent to be honest, but I don't think everyone calling her evil is fair either. At the management level, I'd expect people to be more professional than how the SA acted anyway.
Why do you ask about this in the context of management team hiring?
Whether or not people think OP was in the wrong or not, it's an important reminder about the dangers of reneging and I think people on this board are super quick to recommend 'take the offer, you can always renege later'. I've heard of kids from my school who end up in this situation where they lose both offers, and I know a kid who reneged, and, the first day at his 'better' bank, they informed him that he wouldn't be getting a return offer because he essentially got the SA position under a lie.
No matter who you think is in the wrong or how much you hate the recruiting process and its timeline, be very careful with reneging. You're scorning the bank who you're reneging on and hoping they don't decide to get revenge, and it's very easy for them to throw a wrench into your entire career.
If you do reneg, make sure you don't tell the first bank which bank you did sign with - just say personal reasons and shut the fuck up if they press you for details. Don't update your LinkedIn with "Incoming SA at Better Bank" either. If you're dumb enough to do either of those things you probably deserve to lose your offer.
Don't really have much to say on this topic, but I wanted to let you know that you are such a beach.
Understand it's frustrating to have invested time and effort into hiring an SA and potentially emotionally investing in them as well, but it seems a little vindictive to have subsequently gone out of your way to inform his / her new firm of that they reneged on a contract with your own firm. This is literally just a kid trying to maximise their career opportunities and you've single-handedly imposed a large obstacle in their likely well intentioned path.
Personally, if I was at firm X and knew firm Y had a better rep on the street, and a prospective SA reneged on an offer in order to move up the ladder, I wouldn't hold it against them at all - is exactly what I would do myself.
Maybe you're not as effective as recruiting as you think you are?
I hope what you did makes you feel good about yourself. I doubt you understand how 'at will' employment really works. It's not a binding contract that forces you to work somewhere. One day when you get screwed over by a company and realize that they don't care about you, then maybe you'll start to understand.
So let me get this straight. Banks start doing this retarded acccelerated timeline where some banks wrap up by April and other banks keep recruiting and interviewing into next year January. Then banks complain that students, who are trying to maximize their own self-interest and careers, are reneging?
This is just going to lead to candidates not telling you which firm they've signed with - if this candidate was smart, he/she should have just told you "for personal reasons, I cannot work at your firm. Thanks, XXX." They even had the courtesy of telling you the reason they reneged and which bank they were signing with, and you used that information to potentially ruin his career.
So don't be surprised if your bank ends up getting more renegs with no information.
Damn dude he is a fucking a college student and you got so butthurt about it? You must be quite weak emotionally, like "cry when you get home because someone flipped you off in traffic and it ruined your day" level. Stuff like this happens. I honestly think this was really mean to do. Yeah, he reneged but like you know very little about him or his personal life, where he came from, how hard he worked, etc. You seriously might have just fucked up someones career just so you could feel "powerful" or "in control." Well did it work? He's a fucking kid, homie, no need to do stuff like this to someone.
Edit: From your original post, it seemed more like you really led the charge on this, which as someone in an analyst position, I would see as a bad thing to do. From your follow-up comment below, I see that is clearly not entirely the case, and apologize for calling you out so harshly--having gone through recruiting from a non-target, I always think back to what a struggle it was and if someone went out of their way to fuck me over, I'd hate them for it. However, I still do think you had a role, but not worth how harshly you are attacked for on here (attacks from myself included)--I do get that you were just doing your job. I still see it as a bad thing to have done (any role you play) knowing the consequences on the kid. Idk, don't listen to me, I'm just some dude on a forum. To each their own.
a) it was stupid of this kid to tell you where he was going..hopefully lesson learned b) you are an ass for ruining his career c) you can always goto candidates 3, 4, 5, 6...so no other candidates were "blocked" because this kid found a better offer.
if you don't want people to reneg...then you should try becoming a better firm...where people don't want to reneg...and also, don't give exploding offers that block your candidates from exploring other options...this makes YOU the asshole.
100% agree with this. You and your friend are both an absolute POS for ruining the start of this kids' career. This kid wasn't an idiot... he was being as honest and genuine with you as he could and you went around him to screw him over.
This stuff happens all the time - especially at the higher levels. You just screwed over some naive undergrad because you lack normal social awareness and wanted to feel "powerful".
I hope karma comes back your way, asshole.
Imagine the amount of time and effort it took for him to land a deserving job. You hit him below the belt. I am not judging but this speaks about your personality. If you were in his place, you would have done the same. I hope you sleep well at night.
First of all since I'm getting so much shit for this, let me clear things up:
I think the first thing to note was that I wasn't the first person to take action at my firm. There's no direct cause/effect relationship in what I did, and HR was the first to know and subsequently one of the analysts, and they were the first to reach out to both the student's new firm and the college campus. The university's career center has always wanted to be transparent with us since it's an innate pipeline built into the region, and they always request for any information like this. When I had gone through recruiting myself, the punishments for reneging were always severe to the point of being blocked from OCR.
To address the comment about early recruiting timelines, it was early relative to when we used to recruit. Our area has historically been on the latter half of the timeline, recruiting in the fall. That year, we only accelerated by 1 month or so because we're one of the firms that "If you really want to land a spot with us, you'll wait for us" and were one of the last firms to have recruited. To have an exploding offer at the end doesn't make it much of an exploding offer - there were only so few firms left on the table.
I think people don't understand the nature of the region I'm in. Many of the comments here are saying it was a "power" or "control" move. Nowhere did I explicitly say I told my friend to relay the information to anyone; I purely informed him that someone at our firm signed with his after signing with us. Furthermore, our HR's are all interconnected across the region, and it's common practice that students that renege an offer end up penalized - either through rescinding an offer or return.
I don't believe that you're allowed to say "I fucked up his entire career" because no one has that power. In the end of the day, I wasn't the once who chose to rescind his other offer - it was HR. Our HR has rescinds multiple offers for reneging, and that's a common practice among all firms in our area, EB or BB. Furthermore, HR and even some of the analysts will always ask "Are you currently in the process with other firms?" It's purely informational in nature to ensure that a candidate hears back in the fastest time possible, so there's no point in lying about it.
Out of everyone in the picture, it was career services that took the most action, and this had nothing to do with me. Our standard procedure is to inform the college campus that someone from their campus has signed an offer with us for alumni recruiting and firm events- it makes sense that we also have to inform them when a candidate chooses not to come. After our HR called the university, career services sent each of us interviewers an individualized apology and then detailed us a list of actions/precautions they are taking, including notifying the other firm. Furthermore, it explicitly stated that "Students are informed of the consequences of reneging an offer during the OCR process. We've strictly adhered to these policies as we have incidents every year." The candidate was obviously informed about policies so regardless if I said anything or not, he would have faced some form of consequence from both his career services and firm
Everyone also says that "firm X has a better rep than firm Y" or improve your firm. We've come top 3 in league tables for probably the last decade, and we've always had 90% placement into top funds for those that are interested in buy side. Even if you were to renege from a Tier 4 to a Tier 1 firm, it wouldn't be "fine". I don't think anyone here can argue that our firm is "worse," and we still get hundreds of applicants from the school. Prestige has little to do with this.
I understood that I would get a lot of backlash, but at least provide some insight into personal experiences lol. I know for a fact that many people have been in this situation, and I was asking for other personal experiences. We have long held steadfast to our own reneging policies - we do not extend offers to people who've signed, and firms have always gone out of their way to notify us as well. It's not the first, and it's not the last.
I don't think anyone here disagrees that there are "consequences" to reneging, and this is probably the nightmare scenario for any SA. As mentioned above, why even mention the other firm's name? I agree that I'm more "emotional" relative to men in the business, but it was more so for respect. If you don't even bother responding to a follow up email, it comes off as rude, and it wasn't respecting the time I invested. It could've been a combination of the downturn work environment and other things as well, but I don't feel proud nor bad for what I did. It would've happened regardless just due to the natural landscape of the industry here. Also, what's the point of extending offers if reneging exists? I might as well recommend every student to continue interviewing "for fun" after they've signed.
I've been in your previous threads, and you're super informative so I can't imagine you're intentionally trying to hurt someone - but, I think that you're at least 10% to blame if not more. Sure, you had the "power" to inform HR, but you didn't have to... you could've let someone else handle it but you were one of the people who did reach out.
I'm not even in a position where I can renege because I have no offers. But, I have heard the endless lectures on how you can lose offers and recruiting opportunities. I've even heard that all banks would be notified, but I think it's a bluff. How much "power" or "control" do you honestly have since you seem to know the process well?/ I've never spent more than 20 minutes on a call so 3 hours means you're either stupidly generous or you're the head recruiter or something
To many people's disheartening on this thread, I was the campus recruiter for associates and co-campus recruiter for analysts. We'd come to campus with an HR representative who would vet resumes, but we'd do most of the selections for calls and supers. It's also why I'm so closely tied with campus recruiting and honors programs. If you're recruiting from my alma mater, chances are we've had a run in at least once.
Once again, I'm not trying to say I didn't play a role since I obviously took some action, but I think it's more common than people think. I also think it's viewed differently when you're an analyst versus you're approaching senior levels. Clearly from some of the reactions above, there are people that were in a similar position or have done something similar.
If a bank can rescind an offer for any reason, a candidate should be able to reneg an offer for any reason. It's as simple as that in my books.
THIS
1) You started a chain reaction of events that could ONLY cause harm. 2) You were not injured in any way...recruiting is part of your job, you can extend an offer to the next person on the list, and they are indeed all replaceable. 3) the chain of events caused by your action probably resulted in this kid getting blacklisted. Are you happy about that? 4) the reason you provide justifications is because you don't want to feel bad about hurting another person. that makes you a lousy person.
you felt justified in taking an action that could only cause harm. If instead you just extended an offer to the next kid in the list, everybody would have ended up happy. Instead, you chose poor judgement.
Hopefully, you will learn from this and have more empathy for other people next time around.
Fully fleshing out the context doesn't negate the fact that you took the kid who tried to do the right thing out of the running for something he certainly put countless hours of effort into. By the same token, you did what you thought was the right thing - simply put: like his actions had consequences, so do yours. It is on you to accept those, but don't go rationalizing away the reality of the outcome.
You're equivocating. You're the guy in the firing squad who says "my bullet probably wasn't the cause of death." You wouldn't have made the call if you didn't want any consequences for the analyst. Do you stand by making the call or not?
You must be fun at parties.
You're sensitive as fuck
Complete dick move. Who cares if he reneges on your offer, you likely have 900 other candidates to choose from and I am guessing they are all pretty close in skill set.
At the same time, screw that other bank for dumping the kid because he cancelled your offer. He basically said "I like you more than them" and he got dumped for it. People like you and them are one of the main reason this industry is cra to work in. "I think I am the greatest and if you hint that I am not I am going to throw a fit and burn your house down".
It's crazy to me. In a profession where you ask to perform a service for someone up to 200 times and hope to win 5-10 times at most, you get upset because one college kid does you dirty. You must be one of the lucky ones that doesn't have to worry about where their next nut comes from if you have time to waste on this..... along with taking the time to post something as dumb as this
It almost seems impossible..... but unfortunately its likely true in this field.
Hope that kid is a big CEO some day and just throws it down your throat on a big deal.
But yes, likely natural selection if the kid was green enough to state which bank he was going to.....
I don't think there's an actual argument that says what she did was out of the way in terms of time spent. It probably took her 1 or 2 minutes to call her friend and send a short email - could've done it on the toilet for all we know.
I think as @s.kang12 mentioned, just don't tell the firm you're reneging, and even be cautious telling your close friends. Offers from great firms travel like wildfire on campuses so chances are it's going to slip. Everyone knows people renege offers- if you're the one to get dinged for it, then you're either an idiot or super unlucky. For every person that does get punished like this, there are at least 10 that live perfectly fine. In his case, the dude got the worst combination of idiocy and unluckiness - he got an offer from a great firm (tier 1 EB or BB) based on what I've seen, but he probably was splitting hairs and overthought the decision. he also happened to piss off the wrong person that runs the whole damn show. Was just unfortunate.
The other big takeaway from this is just how many different personalities are in banking. So many people here are so quick to dumpster her, but they forget she's clearly in a position to do whatever she wants to - this thread might've led her to just dump every resume on the desk because she's emotional, with no consequence. There's another version of her at very bank on the street so it's just best to be cautious. I think this also goes to show how much the culture varies in each group. If she's working in a group like Evercore or GS and formally runs recruiting, then you're about to be boned when it comes to non-work stuff. I'm sure she's a great career banker, but you would never want to hang outside of work.
I'm surprised people are so angry about a bank/banker reacting to getting reneged on- as a college kid going through the process, it's easy to empathize with the kid in this scenario, but try to understand the firm's side of things. They spend hours interviewing/recruiting you, they give you an offer, you accept, everyone is happy. From a practical point of view, they stop recruiting for that spot (and likely reject whoever was in line behind you to get the offer), and move on. This throws a wrench in things when you subsequently renege, and they now need to go to a kid they rejected and be like 'hey you still interested?'
Banks aren't going to give you an offer, see a kid with a GPA that is .1 higher, and then pull your offer to give to that kid. Why should the inverse not be the same? Accepting an offer means you should be done recruiting. It's one thing to try to negotiate out your offer deadline or be transparent about interviewing at another firm you are interested in, but to me it seems scummy to accept their offer but not actually value that.
a good question is also was he transparent with the other firm as well? I know many firms would not interview a candidate if he had told them that he already signed an offer. I've heard that signing an offer implies that you're done - if you respond to an interview notif with "I signed an offer with this firm", they're probably gonna reply with ty and move on to the next person. Nowhere is it implied that you're going to continue recruiting when you've signed already.
Agreed. Every firm I've ever interviewed has also asked where I stand with the recruiting process and if I've received any offers, and, the one firm I interviewed at once I had an offer, their immediate next question after I said I had an offer was whether I had declined or was still considering. I assume this means you would need to have lied about the other offer at this point because I doubt a firm would interview you if you admitted to already accepting a different offer, so it makes a little more sense why the firm you are reneging and going to would still be angry because it means you lied to them likely.
I think it is also scummy when people spend hours interviewing and prepping for interviews, go through multiple rounds to never hear back from the bank again.
Maybe I'm a bit too empathetic, but this put a sour taste in my mouth during my morning coffee. You even mention how replaceable these lower-level team members are, which is likely very accurate for your firm. I'm sure he 'blocked' someone else out of a spot, but I'm also a strong proponent of competition/survival of the fittest, and the spoils belong to the victor. He could have gone about it in a better way, but he's a 20-year old kid who likely worked hard to get to his university/multiple BB offers. I hope you sleep well knowing that you went out of your way to hamper someone else's career. Maybe try using your sensitivity to understand other people's situations - it may help your recruiting.
I also hope that he happens to be a WSO user and reads this thread. Would be a shame if he notified your HR team
You've got some bad karma coming to you.
Regional BB: We stop pursuing candidates who have signed with another bank, full stop. If a candidate has an offer but it hasn't exploded yet, and we like that candidate enough, we may move the process up to accommodate. We wouldn't bother interviewing someone if they had to renege, and we do ask. If they don't tell, we find out.
Just to help students out, don't try and renege in regional offices. We will find out where you have offers and/or got hired even if you don't tell anyone. It not only hurts you but can certainly get your school in trouble (bank HRs report this to Campus Recruiting) and have seen banks blacklist schools where people renege, just like schools blacklist banks that break their campus recruiting rules.
Bottom line, find a place that you like, try and get an offer there, and if you accept just stop. The grass is greener mentality will not serve you well over the long run in finance.
the whole point is that exploding offers before other firms even make offers is a lousy way to force the process.
Oh yes it will. If you’re not one of the 10% or so that spend their entire career in the same firm, it’s highly likely you’ll get to the top far faster by going where the opportunity is. Companies trying to say otherwise are full of shit. Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen a good internal candidate for a director position passed over for an external hire.
I think that many people here overlook look the fact that she's not the only person who's done this - she at least has the balls to say that she played a role. You guys say she felt the need to be "powerful" or "controlling," but the facts are she was in a position of power. Everyone here is trying to shame her and belittle her to realize what she did was wrong, but calling someone a POS, bitch, or whatever noun does little to help the situation. You're grown ass men with full-time jobs, which means you're already disconnected from this situation. But for many of us undergrads, we're looking at this thread saying "wow, everyone here is a piece of shit." Not to mention, I doubt you're teaching her a lesson by calling her a dick - you're probably borderline pissing her off, which means that the people undergoing recruiting right now will take the blunt of the emotion.
No... we are flagging that this is unacceptable behavior so people like you (undergrads) do not have this happen to you...
Reneging is a cuck move. The kid should have asked for an extra 3 days to make a decision if he wanted to wait to hear what the other firm was going to say. Or called up the other firm and told them that he needs to hear back before the day that the offer he had exploded or he was going to accept another offer.
Edit: what op did was also a cuck move. overall totally cucked situation.
Please go punch yourself in the face for using cuck in a non-porn context. The only thing that makes me madder is when some twatbag uses “alpha / beta” in earnest. You heard some douchebag say this on a talk show and now you repeat it like a trained parrot.
I think students vastly underestimate how connected people are in regional offices. There's an ethical point to debate, which is what people in this thread are stuck on, but at the end of the day, it's incredibly risky to renege and there is little reward (prestige?) This is not the tech industry where people hop around every year. Regional office investment banking is a dramatically personal affair.
I don't think that there's little reward. I think that the kid must have really liked the other place better to have reneged. I've liked a lot of people on my job search, but I've really clicked with only a few of them. If you're working 80+ hour weeks you better love the people you work with or you'll burn out and quit earlier than you would have if you enjoyed your coworkers' company. The kid shouldn't be punished for having reneged after 3 days either. Sure, it's a tiny bit embarrassing to go to the waitlist after denying somebody, but people understand that they might not get the job if the employer waits 3 weeks to get back to a candidate.
yes, i've had SAs and FTs renege (i was at a BB in the top 5 of most every list)...and it was zero issue...i just went to the next kid on the list.
retribution, when you are not really harmed, is spiteful and petty...and does not belong in this or any business.
Were you in a HQ office (NY, HK, London) or a regional office?
I only ask because this classic HQ banker stereotype / myth of "hurr durr, Analysts aren't people, let's fuck them over at every opportunity" drives me insane.
I wanted to reaffirm what Synergy_or_Syzygy said. The majority of people on this thread are definitely in NY or even SF based on how they react, and they fail to understand the implications of a regional office. Unlike NY, these "smaller" offices aren't about the "pump and dump" mentality - we try to build real relationships that will last for years on end.
I've been at a solid BB (GS/MS/BAML) for more than half a decade, and I would say I have buddies at nearly every firm in our region - BB's and EB's included. Similarly, I keep in touch with all my previous analysts and associates, even if they chose to lateral to a different bank. We don't see many students renege offers - at most 1 per recruiting cycle, but we don't take it lightly. Standard protocol for us is to direct all calls to HR, but ever so often, I would get an email or a call asking if candidate X signed with our firm. Emails/calls like this are always red flags, and if a candidate signed with us by reneging another offer, we WILL rescind the offer. We always make sure that the whole process is transparent - we ask the candidate if he/she is in the process with any other firms (don't even ask to specify which firms), if he/she has any exploding offers, etc. We don't ask stupid questions like "have you signed" because we assume you haven't - if any firm knowingly interviews a candidate that has signed an offer, I don't even know what to say. I'm not defending the morality of OP's situation - I'm just saying that stuff like this happens almost every year in my area. I've received calls from people ranging from analysts to directors, so clearly it matters to even the senior members.
I’ve given this some more thought and after reading your defense, I definitely think you are a POS.
You came on this forum looking for someone to tell similar stories so that guilt would be lifted off your shoulders. Well guess what, this is something your emotional self is gonna have to deal with. The fact that you try to push this away, saying that you weren’t responsible, is laughable. You set the wheels in motion. You were the ignition to this fire. You went out of your way with the sole purpose of making this kid’s life just that much harder.
Sure, it sucks that you have spent time and hours on something that didn’t result in anything, but every other candidate applying did the same thing for your firm and sucked it up when they weren’t interviewed etc. You sound like my ex that would take forever to get ready, and when we were finally on our way out the door, half an hour late, she would yell at me for now having tied my shoes while waiting for her.
What really kills it for me is that you specifically explained the whole situation of regional banks. This guy probably roamed sites like this, that are heavily skewed towards NY/London, where it is okay to reneg. He’s an undergrad with zero experience, so how was he supposed to know the code of conduct in your city? You, on the other hand. You knew this would look bad on him. You knew that HR around town is very connected. You knew that he could get blacklisted for his actions. Yet, instead of telling him, like an adult, or send him an email about the potential consequenses this could have, you pushed him in front of the train. Tell yourself all you want that you had nothing to do with the trouble he is in, but if things are as interconnected as you explained above, you may have set this guy’s career back, severly.
I’d rather play russian roulette with a hallucinating GoldenCinderblock than get afterwork drinks with someone as spiteful as you.
Sincerely, QuiltEmerson
Similar to Synergy_or_Syzygy and ELurker7 , I've managed to work my way up the ladder at a regional BB, but specifically in an O&G group. There are a multitude of systematic flaws coupled with a list of judgement lapses from both parties in this post.
If the candidate was from Texas, there's absolutely no excuse for not knowing the consequences of reneging an offer. Career services works closely with these firms, even setting up on-campus interviews and information sessions. It's common knowledge that not only are HR's here connected, but there are good relationships built between the academic institutions and our firm. Our firm has blacklisted people in the past - there should be enough horror stories that get passed along to realize that extending offers is a pretty serious decision.
To the OP. you should not have called your friend at another firm. Are you able to? Sure. Did you have to? I don't remember reading anything about being threatened so no, you didn't have to. I don't care if it was on the shitter or in an Uber, you chose to reach out to someone, and that always leads to something - I don't know how it would've ended positively. Even if you said nothing negative about the candidate besides that he reneged, that type of "offense" is serious enough here to rescind an offer. Like others have mentioned, reneging is so uncommon here to the point I'm confident every person that gets caught reneging most likely faced a series of rejections and blacklists. I was in your exact shoes a couple of years ago, but I never considered reaching out to the other firm directly. I have many contacts here, just like everyone else - but recruiting should be run through HR. Why bother dirtying your hands with something that's inevitable? I'm sure both firms involved would resolve the situation with the same exact result without your input.
To anyone thinking about reneging an offer, either don't do it at all or don't get caught. You think HR firms in regional banks don't reach out to NY firms? That's just being naive. Regardless of location, reneging will always have its consequences. It's been this way for years, and I'm surprised it's not frowned upon anymore. If you're able to keep it a secret, you deserve to get the job. But, don't act all surprised if HR calls you to inform you that they won't be having you for the summer.
faceslappingcompilation I personally don't see this as an exploding offer argument - the term "exploding" has merely become a filler word for the undergraduates. It just means an offer is expiring, not that the time is severely limited. Rarely do BB's here accelerate timelines, and very few boutiques do unless they come across a stellar candidate. Expiring timelines exist everywhere in every industry - even an offer from Shake Shack will expire. Candidates have always asked for additional time to decide, and we've been able to give up to 2-3 additional weeks; I highly doubt that any firm wouldn't be able to give some additional time, especially since southern hospitality exists. However, your other point is valid - just move on to the next candidate.
The thing I will end with is that there are actually some scenarios where I do think OP's actions would've been more tolerable and justified. For example, if the candidate explicitly lied to her stating that he was not in any other interviewing processes or had no expiring offers. We would classify this as false information, and our HR department would definitely take action to reach out to other firms. There's absolutely no reason to lie, especially since most of us have been in the shoes of these interviewees.
Out of curiosity, has anyone pm'd BBEGal? She used to be fairly responsive, but I have yet to hear a single thing. Despite this whole shit show, she's provided me solid advice on industry, interviews, and firm knowledge in the past. Never would've imagined she do something like this, but I just wanted to ask a question about a firm - nothing even related to this.
Such an asshole move to ruin someone's professional life because of your "beliefs." A perfect example of the white cockiness and privilege.
The kid was WRONG and handled it very poorly. He got what he deserved. But you also FUCKED up. The notion that "a contract is a contract" doesn't apply if no consideration was exchanged. Did you pay to lock him up? If you were able to hire another qualified candidate, be happy.
Also, you should have MADE him call you and mentored him. He would have owed you a big favor. I'd rather be owed, than make an enemy unnecessarily. Never know how things will shake out in the future. So, practice the platinum rule.
Fuck you. You said it yourself, analysts are replaceable, investment banks don’t give a fuck about their analysts so why should you expect an ounce of loyalty from them. He’s clearly looking out for his own interests with minimal damage to you or your firm (3hrs wow, at least its 3 less hours spent formatting a ppt).
W/o a SA offer you’re cutting off both his legs when it comes down to FT recruiting. If he did really well on the interview process its cause he prob spend countless hrs preparing.
I hope one day someone will cancel a deal with your bank just because you’re on the team
Funny to me how everyone wants us to care about SA #1 who reneged, but very few seem to care about SA #2 who now has a job because SA #1 got kicked out. Both are strangers, but we care about one way more than the other.
IMHO anyone who cares about SA #1 and not SA #2 is just letting their mind play tricks on them. You care about the first guy because he is identifiable, but the second guy is ignored because we don't know which one he is. Cognitive bias. Sells a lot of non-fiction books these days.
If you accept that one guy's loss was another guy's gain, I think it's hard to get so worked up over the first guy's loss. Also, good judgment is part of the package (if not the most important part) and the first guy showed horrible judgment in how he played it.
So for the recruiting system to work, everybody has to play by common rules. If offers and acceptand are meaningless, pretty much the whole system shuts down. Maybe you would like a different system, and that might be better, but if you agreed to participate in this one, you agreed to play by these rukes.
You are a sad piece of shit and I hope your house will burn. Be a man and deal with the fact that you are as replaceable as the candidate. But I guess screwing a 20 year-old made you feel good for 30 seconds. What a sad dick you are.
OP is getting so many negative comments probably because this forum is flooded with college kids who really emphasize with the victim I personally am neutral to this issue but I feel bad for the OP for this amount of irrational and unnecessary bashing
Also, big set of balls on some people chirping in on their new / burner accounts...
I’m fairly neutral too. Feel bad for the kid, this is a pretty costly consequence and given it’s a regional thing, everyone has probably gossiped about it by now. Hopefully not all the banks in the region followed suit with a blacklist and provide him an opportunity for an interview if he’s a legit good candidate. I think blacklist should only be reserved for something unethical (see: Jeffrey Chiang falsifying an offer with BAML to present to another bank MS, people falsifying their transcripts, etc.). This industry can benefit from more empathy.
But, it also seems like he has very little common sense:
Telling OP where he’s going (no, don’t do that)
Ghosting on OP after she requested follow-up. People argue he’s just being upfront by offering #1... but I think you either don’t tell them where if you must renege, or you provide some closure and be very respectful (apologize, thank them for their time, etc.), people are generally reasonable if you’re respectful,
Sounds like he asked for a lot more air time with her (+ maybe other bankers?) to make his decision vs other candidates... Nothing wrong with requesting info make a decision, but also be reasonably mindful and respectful of people’s time, and
it’s not like he was jumping from crappy bank to tier 1 BB - sounded like it was going from one good BB/EB to another. The reward wasn’t worth the risk, don’t split hairs
These items point to poor common sense and judgment, which is something senior bankers are looking for (someone who can crank and smart technically, but also not a common sense doofus). I wouldn’t be surprised if an MD had been running this would just as easily called up a buddy and done the same. Not saying they should, and not saying it’s right or justified, but college kids on this board should be aware that this CAN happen (reneging has potential reputation risks re: your integrity), and take this thread as a cautionary tale.
Was the original title of your post "intern reneges, I get my revenge.." and you edited it? Or did WallStreetOasis.com make that title up in the email it sent me about this post? Either way what an awful way to view this action. And let's be real about all the revisionist follow up posts you've made - they're still in light of your initial post, which makes clear you take real pleasure in knowing that "word broke out about this to other firms".
I once helped a IB analyst I knew from another BB get into a lateral process in my group and vouched for him through interviews/selection because he asked for my help and made it clear he was 100% set on leaving. He ended up declining the offer a week after receiving it; I'd say this is a pretty similar situation to what happened to you. I was very annoyed as this reflected poorly on me internally, but, as a self-identifying adult I try to avoid being extremely petty so I just let him know (crisply, not emotionally) that while I understood him declining despite asking for my reference / help to get the job in the first place, I was disappointed by the outcome and he shouldn't ask me for help again in the future.
We called our 2nd choice a few minutes later and she accepted; she made a great addition to the team. Now, I could have exacted some easy revenge by sending a quick text to someone at his bank, and I imagine that would have had some repercussions for him given it was a lateral move. But I figured that wouldn't accomplish much of anything.
I know your claim is that your bank is considered a top tier opportunity, but this comes off as some jaded nonsense from a recruiter tired of seeing good talent go to better firms/groups. Keep in mind that the IBs have almost all of the leverage / power in the marketplace excluding the top 1% of applicants everyone ends up drooling over.
TL;DR: This is petty and IB isn't big enough to act without fear of repercussions. There are plenty of people to fill analyst roles. Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Many of you all are attacking the OP using some pretty harsh language. It's not wrong to be blunt, but maybe actually read previous comments? The same insult has been framed at least 30 different ways here and it will only make him/her feel awful. You all claim that OP is power hungry and a jerk but some of you all seem to get pleasure from bashing the OP repeatedly. IMO you all seem more toxic to hang around then the OP. And if you are a UG like me, you should actually pay attention to what certified users are saying rather than just trashing the OP. Insulting superiors will get you nowhere in life.
Current undergrad here that just signed an offer, so I was kind of in a similar space. I personally think this thread exemplifies why everyone outside of finance hates investment banking - it's a community where everyone is so out to bash others. Creating an account just to say her house should burn down, and two people +SB? Seriously?
I understand that people say what she did was wrong, but even a 20/21 year old like me can tell that there are missing details. We know the candidate was a dumb ass because he did things like list the name of the firm, but he could've at least answered a call. I also took multiple calls with people from both firms I had offers from, and I eventually signed and emailed those at the other firm I would not be joining them. Some of them replied passive aggressively like "K. Tks." while others asked to call and explain why I signed with the other firm. Not to mention, it wasn't much of a choice to call since their emails were worded where it was more of a demand and less of a request - regardless, of course I would've called since they took time out of their day for me. This just seems like common courtesy to me.
Out of 5 or so people, it was obvious at least 3 were upset/annoyed and the other 2 were at least concerned enough to ask why. Not to mention, I only called for 45 - 60 minutes split between all employees, which was enough for one VP to say "Thanks anyways. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to spend my time on something more useful now." If you want to add some perspective to this, I went through an NY EB process. OP's candidate was clearly in a much more intimate regional office, spent more than 3x time I did on the phone with ONE PERSON, and he was in a situation where he reneged - just had two expiring offers. If me not taking a standard expiring offer is enough to irk people at associate at VP levels in NY, I can only imagine how pissed off they would've been if I reneged - I would've ended up as a fugitive in everyone's inbox.
Many of you guys are so quick to burn the OP. Even WSO gave this thread a header with "revenge" when that was never mentioned - it just makes this whole thing even worse. I would never do something to jeopardize offers at 2 solid firms. Especially if it was for something as dumb as going from GS to Evercore.
It's Evercore, GS, Citi, or Barclays...GL with that one lol. One person doesn't represent a pack, and like others have mentioned, there's most likely one of her at every firm. Keep your options open
A summer intern renegs on an offer when a bank can do the exact same just by giving a BS reason and there’s not much you can do about it. Poor banks.
Honestly OP, next time don’t be such a fuc*in loser.
Banks hardly if ever do that
Edit: as a comment below correctly points out, I should've clarified that I am referring to American banks. Not the third world.
they renege plenty, and also have an awful record of failing to do right by their employees once employed. Maybe it's different in the regional bank OP is at, but in general I've found banks to be incredibly dis-loyal. So this "your word is your bond" attitude from the bank to an employee does strike me as hypocritical.
I'll share a secret - I was fired from a BB as soon as associate training was over, because some of my test scores weren't as good as they'd like. Nearly all of my tests were fine, but there were a couple areas unrelated to my job or field of study that I struggled with.
Was the bank understanding? Nope. Out the door.
And I'd just moved from the US to Europe, was saddled by my recent student debt, and had paid my own expenses to move to London.
Moreover I had been hired by them from MBA on campus recruiting early in the process. So I actually DID turn down other interview opportunities, and I did honor my contract.
So the idea that the bank is going to be loyal to an employee is beyond laughable. And that's a pattern I've seen as an employee of banks subsequently.
They are NOT loyal, they are NOT human, they are NOT understanding.