Ending Diversity Programs For Good - When will it happen?
As someone who went to a state school and actually had to bust my ass off to break into a Bulge Bracket out of school (graduated 2016) I have genuinely gotten exhausted at looking at extremely underqualified candidates getting offers thrown at them through diversity. It's universally known that if you went to a public high school, you essentially have to get perfect grades / test scores to even get into a WashU / UVA type school which isn't even in the upper-tier of Wall Street feeders. So basically unless you're a "diversity" candidate you are required to get perfect grades / test scores from the age of 14 in order to qualify for jobs at age 25 / 26 / 27. The fact that certain roles / program that are only open to "diversity" candidates is actually maddening to me.
As someone who was involved in my group's recruitment pipeline, I was forced to basically hand out interviews and pass extremely sub-par interviewees on to final round interviews simply because they were affiliated with SEO / MLT / some diversity program. I am genuinely curious to all the diversity candidates out there, how do you feel about diversity recruiting? If you are seriously pushing for equal opportunity (not equal results) wouldn't you be opposed to these diversity programs? Don't you want to actually earn your offers through merit? How is reserving almost 75% of all entry level positions to 10% of the analyst pool promoting anything close to a meritocracy??
With that I want to open a forum to people who have benefitted from diversity programs and affiliated pipelines. When will this diversity PR stunt be over? At what point are the diversity candidates willing to stand-up for their non-affluent Asian / White peers that didn't go to Exeter or Andover who have to work 2X harder for 1/2 of the result???
Oh god... Not another one of these posts.
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Yes joking about suicide. Super classy.
"Oh look at me. I'm on my high horse. I can't take a joke because I'm dead inside. I'll much rather take a dick."
That's you... You act like that... I'm mocking you. Rinse the sand out of your vagina and learn how to take a joke.
Careful, every white person that grew up with 2 parents in a gated community have “depression” and “anxiety” 😂
Grow the fuck up, there's a reason these programs have been put in place, stop acting like there's no chance for non-diversity people to break in. Most of the street is STILL predominantly made up for straight white dudes. If you think these programs are the reason you aren't progressing in life it's time for a wake up call; the problem isn't diversity programs, maybe you're just not as competitive as a candidate as you think you are (you also seem like you've got an IB gig so I really don't understand why you're bitching about this). Make the most of the opportunities around you and stop whining about programs MEANT FOR OTHER PEOPLE. As a white/asian male you have no say in what diversity students need/want/deserve so shut the fuck up and go back to working on your slide deck
Shitty take tbh
I'm asian, I don't even benefit from these programs, I can 100% see who does though and yeah maybe SOME of the people who get in aren't the most intelligent, but the reason for that is because they've got other shit to deal with in life that a white person cannot truly know. As an asian I deal with nowhere near the same amount of injustice that black and indigenous folks deal with, and white people will never understand what any POC goes through in life. Working at 100% drive as a POC and as a white person doesn't yield the same results, and although money is a factor there are wealthy/affluent/well off POC who also face a shit ton of discrimination; money doesn't suddenly mean the problems black people face is eliminated....
I do not think these programs are perfect. One example: a few weeks back some guy posted that he was not considered diversity even though he was from a poor village in Sumatra, but because of the "model minority" stuff due to successful Chinese-Americans, lots of east asian groups were discriminated against by these programs. 100% agree that's a problem. THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, but the people on this site don't care about improving these programs, they want to eliminate them "because they don't do anything". If they even help ONE person, then that's one step in the right direction. In your entire 20, 25, 30 years of life you probably have done absolutely nothing to help solve racial inequalities in America so do not go on complaining about the VERY FEW programs and institutions that are at least TRYING. Seriously, people on this site piss me the fuck off sometimes with how entitled they are.
I think it's fair to say that a lot more junior people are diverse these days. We can't change that the industry is mostly straight white men. Not a big fan of diversity programs because they exclude a lot of people. A lot of poor people are neglected, especially of white / asian descent. More than half the world is asian (over 5 billion) and we're discriminating them because of chinese and indians... If you just remove those two categories Asians are severely underrepresented.
I'm a non-target diversity candidate and I'm ready to put in my heart and soul into the work. I look forward to hearing constructive criticism regarding my work and however else I can improve, but I don't look forward to be resented for taking an opportunity. I know this system is quite flawed, and I understand your frustration. I hope folks at my firm don't have this attitude towards us. If we're genuinely bad at the job- please throw us out, but don't assume we're bad before we even start working.
I don't think anyone would have personal animosity towards candidates as individuals. Congratulations on securing and internship by the way, glad to see that college students are remaining ambitious. However, keep in mind many of you Asian/White peers are also willing to "put their hear and soul into the work". Don't you feel that you should also stick up for your Asian / White peers? You are given opportunities and roles that don't even allow Asian candidates to apply for, even though most Asian countries were colonized by Imperial Europe.
Don't listen to these people. You belong. They just racist but you can't really change them. Thousands of years ago their ancestors were scared racists too. Find people who want to help and just ignore the other ones. But as long as you take care of yourself and stand tall on your values, these people are irrelevant.
Like I keep saying, diversity programs should be more about outreach and providing resources so more URMs become actually qualified.
Quota and quota adjacent programs hurt everyone.
You think just accepting more minorities is gonna work, you're gravely mistaken. It's like treating someone with cancer with bunch of opioids instead of treating the freaking disease.
Thomas Sowell - "Discrimination and Disparities"
SB+ Thomas Sowell is an intellectual giant. Anyone supporting these so called "diversity initiatives" needs to read his work.
I'm sure you also think of Candace Owens as an Intellectual Giant.
Oh yeah, wall street was known to be super meritocratic before diversity hiring.
Diversity is about revenue too. You really think diverse management wants to be pitched to by 10 straight white men?
If you're still complaining about this you need to grow up and learn to interview better. It doesn't take much to be an analyst, so please don't pretend that more technical students will be better analysts-MDs.
edit: deleted. pointless to argue with dumbasses. Y'all keep talking shit, we'll keep "taking over your country".
Your logic is actually retarded. A lot of people can kill their internships, but never get the opportunity. You got the opportunity because you are not White / Asian. Just imagine if you were Asian, your resume would have been thrown in the "No" pile by default...
You fucking bastard, stop using Asians as your scape goat. As an Asian, I'm frankly tired of Whites like you, using Asians for your propaganda and rhetoric. You don't give a damn about Asians so stop bringing us up. Fuck you.
1) diversity hiring is straight up racial discrimination. There is no getting around that. The debate becomes whether the ends justify the means
2) elite, well connected white people traditionally dominated Wall Street hiring via old boys club networks and privileges. Legacy admissions, etiquette, family connections etc.
3) blacks, Hispanics, and Asians never had any sort of advantage of the sort described above
4) People of all races were able to overcome this disadvantage prior to the onset of diversity recruiting. However, the outcome was still very heavily white and male, with almost everyone else being Asian and male.
5) Most Asian people in the USA, and indeed most white people, never had access to the traditional advantages given to rich white kids with well connected parents.
6) Today, the rich white kids with well connected parents still reap the benefits of their privileges in recruiting. However, an enormous portion of remaining spots go to people from diversity recruiting.
7) A huge portion of diversity hires are rich white connected girls. A huge number are rich white connected gays. Of the remaining, many are rich, connected internationals. All of these people benefit from 2 structural advantages that hardworking white and Asian males from a modest background don’t have: the traditional leg up plus the diversity leg up.
8) A small number of diversity candidates are actually who the programs are “designed” for.
9) Asian males often have even more additional obstacles to overcome in recruiting because its societally ok to stereotype them as weird and nerdy
White liberal racists: "Black people need White people's help. Weh weh. I swear I'm not racist." (Sounds a lot like that "white men's burden" used to justify colonialism...)
Black People: Leave us the f*** alone. We want to be judged by our characters, not race (literally MLK Jr's, message).
Grown-ups: Since when was it okay to just have quotas and not give people what they actually need? URMs need resources - books, career development workshops, good K-12 education - not quotas.
Imagine if sports had diversity programs.
NBA GMs: Sorry Kobe Bryant/Michael Jordan (players not drafted in the top 10 picks). We can only draft 10 black players in the first round.
MJ: But I’m the GOAT.
NBA GMs: sorry we want diversity in the league.
I don’t mind banks having diversity quotas. But y’all really be making the dumbest arguments to defend these programs.
TLDR: Diversity path is easier. There’s is probably a non diversity candidate who is more qualified than the diversity candidate who beat them out. Life isn’t fair.
Also a great analogy. If black / Hispanic people feel that their culture doesn't cater towards a Wall Street career, they should change their culture. Asians are 5% of the population and fare completely fine in white collar job recruiting.
Asians don't want to be included in your rhetoric. Stop fucking bringing us into your bullshit agenda. You don't give two shits about us so stop attaching us to your bullcrap.
I went to HYPS and can't tell you the number of under-qualified classmates -- all white -- who got internships through family connections.
There was a girl who went to GS because her father ran a large HF in New York. There was a guy who went to Allen & Co. because his mom was friends with Herb Allen. There was a guy who went to MS because his dad was an MD there. There was a girl who got a job at Credit Suisse AFTER the school year ended because her dad was the CEO of a large F1000 company and was a client of the firm. There was my friend's gf -- who was a great person -- but she had no idea what she wanted to do. She studied anthropology or some shit. For junior-year summer internship, she called daddy. Daddy was a multi-billionaire on Forbes and he called his banker at UBS. UBS asked her what group she wanted to be in and what location. She said London, because Europe for the summer would be fun. So she spent her summer in London. The list goes on.
These are just within the people I knew. Then, when I actually became a VP at MS, I was heavily involved in recruiting. That is where I saw firsthand how unfair things actually were. We received resumes from kids of client and employees all of the time. All white. Some were good, most were average (and wouldn't stand a chance against anyone here on WSO), and some were good awful. We hired a handful of them. I remember there was a kid whose dad was CEO of a company that our M&A group represented on multiple deals. His son went to community college and then transferred to some shit school where he barely had a 3.0 GPA. He spent his entire summer talking about private jets and partying with a bunch of other rich and famous kids. And let's not forget about all of the resumes that we got from some MD's kid or family friend. Let's also not forget all of the resumes that get pushed by all of the other employees at the firm. Hell, I even passed along family member's for a summer analyst position AFTER I had left (she went to semi-target and probably would have gotten overlooked).
But there is one thing that I can honestly say with certainty -- during my 5+ years at MS, I never saw a black guy or Hispanic kid or an Asian/Indian kid get through because of some connection. Only white kids.
I can also go on about all of the specific examples of racism that I saw when I was sitting in roundtables reviewing associate and analyst candidates. When a VP in my group says that he doesn't think a candidate will be a good "cultural fit", whose "culture" do you think he is referring to?
These diversity programs are not perfect by any means. But it's a start. The reason they exist is because the system FAVORS white people so much.
But here is the biggest irony of your post. You should be THANKFUL that these banks have opened their doors to people who don't historically belong there. Every bank could fill their entire class with privileged white kids from Ivy League schools or "friends" of the firm. You really think that there is a place for some kid from a state school with no connections who busted his ass to be the best? Yeah, maybe in middle or back office. Or do you actually think you are the exception? But I get it -- you just want to be racist.
This guy gets it.
Similar experience with what you just laid out here perfectly.
I'm the only black dude in the M&A group at my firm. Was finally excited when I saw the resume of another black guy who wanted to lateral hire into our firm. My MD threw out his resume and when asked why, "I don't think he'll be a good fit" he said. Ended up hiring a white guy from another less prestigious MM firm. Never even talked to the black guy or brought him in for an interview, but I gotta hear it from these retards who think the "one black guy" out of the other 90% white employees hired, got in due to "diversity." Pisses me tf off.
You sir, get a banana.
Didn't happen.
The game is rigged, this post literally shows it. Tired of white people crying all day because one black or Hispanic kid got into a bank lmfao.
EDIT: Seriously though, I'm really happy you told us about your experience especially being in the industry. 99% of the rest of this thread is ugrads who jack off the Ben Shapiro all day.
So what you're saying is because nepotism allows underqualified white people to break in, we should allow underqualified URMs to break in?
Two wrongs don't make it right.
Get rid of nepotism, get rid of racial quotas. Just hire only based on merit. I rest my case.
yes, that's the correct order of operations. still waiting on the first one to happen.
That's the irony of diversity quotas. It doesn't make any sense.
You're a 2nd generation Ghanan American whose parents are both successful AF and your ancestors possibly were slave traders who sold weaker tribesmen to Europeans? You're still Black so you deserve a spot!
You're a poor white kid from Appalachia and the first one to go to college in your entire family? Well you're still white so tough luck.
You're a Vietnamese American whose parents literally fled Communists. You grew up in a low income neighborhood and your parents work at a laundromat? Well your "people" seem to be successful so why aren't you? Tough luck "model minority" kid!
You're from the Middle East? But are you an Caucasian Arab? Persian? Or Black Arab? DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Lesser evil would be soci-economic status quotas, not racial quota.
There are just as many people who get offers based on nepotism and family connections, and such practices have been around for ages, but there doesn’t seem to be the same level of outrage directed towards them... wonder why...
Also diversity matters to clients as well. As a woman and a minority, I’ve personally experienced on 3 separate occasions that a client openly expressed appreciation towards me and others on my team because they’re tired of being pitched to by troupes of white guys. It really is quite refreshing for clients who genuinely value that.
You’re mad at the wrong people. The LONG history of white guys calling in favors for their sons / nephews / family friends that went unchecked for decades created an industry that, unsurprisingly, completely lacked diversity. There are definitely issues with diversity programs and they’re not perfect, but it’s laughable that rich white men created the problem in the first place but it’s the “unqualified minorities” that get all the shit for it.
new drinking game, take a shot every time someone says "I'm Asian" on this thread
But I thought you were "Asian?"
Now you're indirectly saying you are a white guy? So you mean to tell me that you actually lied and were a white guy all along? Shocker. Some Asian dude on here mentioned white people like you love bringing in Asians to fit your narrative and he/she is absolutely right.
You just exposed yourself, scum.
A lot of y'all don't realize that diversity programs don't just impact black / latinx folks (who generally do come from disadvantaged backgrounds). They also help:
Low income students
First generation students
Female students
LGBTQ students
Arab / Mena students (sometimes)
Active Military + Veteran students
Physically disabled students
Students with cognitive / mental disorders
And more...
I always find it fascinating how rarely people bring up these other groups.
As a diverse intern myself, here's how I see it. Now as a black student in finance, I also know that there is also some sort of stigma around my presence. That I am only here because of the diversity program, as if I don't check off all of their subjective boxes and qualifications. Increased representation makes this better - my experience on a desk with no diversity was COMPLETELY different from my experience on my current desk. This is a positive outcome.
One criticism goes that diversity pipelines both elevate unworthy/unqualified candidates an opportunity. This can make logical sense, the diversity route is easier to get through, sure. But the other criticism holds that these programs disproportionally benefit Rich Black students who went to private schools like Exeter and Yale.
How can it be both ways? What is your definition of (un)qualified? Surely it can't be in the caliber of their background - my friends who went through this come from some of the best schools and have great grades.
I think the argument that diversity pipelines elevate "unqualified" candidates at the expense of "qualified" candidates on the sole basis of race is, mostly, a misrepresentation of what's going on. These programs were designed to keep Wall Street as a place that selects for background while still incorporating diversity. Of course this fucks over non-diversity at your random state schools, but the hard truth is that this isn't the background banks seek regardless of race.
As a whole I think the biggest myth is that Wall Street is somehow a meritocracy, which is why you get people that get mad at "diversity programs" that largely work as designed regardless of how we feel about it.
Ultimately, the industry was never designed for the guy from Southern Idaho State, and diversity programs are not taking away the opportunities of these folks as this opportunity never existed. I do think there is a reallocation of opportunities between rich/well-connected students, but to say that these opportunities are being "revoked" from qualified White and Asian students ignores the still-overwhelming proportion of opportunities available to them. It also implies that these students are/should be entitled to these positions (like entry-level banking jobs "belong" to white and asian students) which is the exact mindset that these programs serve to end.
In short, you're wrong