I cant save money

Third year analyst here at an EB in NYC. Title says it all: I cannot save any money in NYC!

Not blaming this on the cost of living here, although very high, my spending habits are also very poor. How do you guys manage to save money here, and for those that do, how do you keep your sanity?

Sad to say but I like to think my spending is a function of not enjoying banking very much and it keeps me entertained. After being in the industry for two years, I only have about $20k saved (embarrassing, dont remind me), not including my 401k.

Now that I am aware and have had an intervention with myself, what is the best way for a single guy to go about saving some money here? Are these posts about being able to net $60k+ in a year after tax realistic at all? Also keep in mind my rent is pushing $1,900 nowadays...

Curious about tips for how to save without living frugally.

Mod Note (Andy): Make sure to check out these related posts: "Managing Your Money, Building a Personal Financial Model", and "Personal Finance Budget Template"

 

I didn't do banking in NY, so I cannot offer an first-hand advice other than the obvious "have you considered a roommate". What I would do, and what really helps me, is to track all of your expenses for a few months to see where the money is going. You can use something basic like pen & paper or Excel, or you can use a website/app like Mint. Your last sentence is your problem, though. You need to cut back. You're making a ton of money, but you're living in a very expensive city.

 
Sil:

I didn't do banking in NY, so I cannot offer an first-hand advice other than the obvious "have you considered a roommate". What I would do, and what really helps me, is to track all of your expenses for a few months to see where the money is going. You can use something basic like pen & paper or Excel, or you can use a website/app like Mint. Your last sentence is your problem, though. You need to cut back. You're making a ton of money, but you're living in a very expensive city.

Thanks. It hurts to say but most of it is for random weekend trips, going out on the weekends, and going out for nice dinners, especially if its a date. I also did two trips to Europe in my two years here (over a week each time), ski trips out West, multiple trips to Vegas, etc. That is where most of it went. Its not a good answer, but I need to cut back my lifestyle. Maybe a girlfriend would help...
 
Best Response
Zosa:
Thanks. It hurts to say but most of it is for random weekend trips, going out on the weekends, and going out for nice dinners, especially if its a date. I also did two trips to Europe in my two years here (over a week each time), ski trips out West, multiple trips to Vegas, etc.

Food $400 Phone $150 Rent $1,900 Vacations $40,000 Utilities $150

can someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my family is dying.

 

Most of this advice is spot on, but what you need to do the most is (as aspiringcoolperson said) is pay yourself first.

Bump your 401k to 10% (minimum) if it isn't there already, and from now on take 25% of your net pay each paycheck and send it straight to savings. Boom, you are instantly doing much better. It should be close to open enrollment for your health insurance - figure out what you spent on healthcare (glasses, contacts, dentist, doctor, etc.) this year and throw that money into a FSA or HSA for 2017. Congrats, all your health expenses next year will be pre-tax.

75% of that third year bonus (net) should be going straight into savings as well, so don't plan some big blowout in Ibiza. No crazy nice dinner for your first date with that chick from Bumble. And so on.

You make a shit ton of money. New York is expensive but you can do a lot better. There's a lot of easy little wins you can take advantage of.

MM IB -> Corporate Development -> Strategic Finance
 
Mark Hanna:

What would your take on traditional vs. Roth 401k be? Friends have told me to do traditional to experience thet savings on tax now, but I find it hard to believe that my tax rate won't be higher than it is now when I pull money out during retirement...

This is a tough question for most monkeys, as most of us believe we'll be or desire to be in the 0.1% in retirement so all the traditional wisdom about higher/lower tax brackets in retirement is not as applicable.

That being said, there is a >0% chance that tax brackets will change in our lifetimes, probably for the higher. When I worked at a company that offered a Roth 401k, I split my contributions 50%/50% between pre-tax and Roth to diversify some risk. A few things to keep in mind:

  1. Most (if not all) company matches/contributions will be pre-tax, even if you are making all your contributions to a Roth 401k.
  2. If you're at a point where your total 401k contributions (ex-company match) are hitting that $18K limit, and you've maxed out IRA options, start dumping more into your Roth 401k because $10,000 Roth and $8,000 pre-tax is net more money than $9,000 Roth and $9,000 pre-tax.
MM IB -> Corporate Development -> Strategic Finance
 

no bad advice so far, but your problem is not logistics, it's emotional/behavioral. you need to change your lifestyle in order to be able to save money. no amount of iphone apps, free checking accts, etc., are going to change what the actual problem is.

Asatar is right, first you need to move. living in an expensive area is your first mistake, you need to lower this by lowering your standards AND getting roommates. you do NOT need to live in squalor to save money, but paying nearly $2k/mo in rent is absurd.

once you move, change your routines. what kinda gym do you go to? if equinox, is it really worth it? try to cut that expense in half. also, take a good hard look at your monthly spending, see what's the highest discretionary expense. you can do all kinds of tips and tricks to lower your fixed expenses (cutting cable cord, switching cell phone plans all the time, etc.), but discretionary is likely what's killing you.

once you determine what it is, come back here and we'll have some better tips for you. my guess is it's one of a few things: clothes, food, bar, hobbies (golf/tennis for example), drugs, or dating. I'd rather not write a dissertation on each of those, so if you could help us out by narrowing down where you need tips, I'm happy to help.

in short, you need to change your lifestyle, but you need help in finding a happy middle between a penny pinching pariah who never leaves the house and someone who is a conspicuous consumer.

 

Something I used when I was in my 20s and cash was tight - withdraw the total spending money at the beginning of each month and place it in envelopes for each week. Each week, put that week's cash in your wallet and restrict yourself to paying cash for everything.

The physicality of seeing the cash and knowing you only have that to get through the week helps apply some brakes to your spending.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

As a third year analyst at an EB you should absolutely be able to save money. To give you context, I'm in a similar position to you, work in SF, make in the 100s pre tax. As some have mentioned I have a little excel model which I use to get a high level sense of where my money goes and how much I have to spend.

The way it roughly looks is

Pre Tax Income - Max out 401k(18k) = Taxable Income

Taxable Income * Tax Rate = Money I have for living/additional saving

With that money I divide by 12 and get an idea of how much I have to play around with each month.

I usually allocate money towards the big bucket expenses which include

Cable Internet Phone(work pays for it) Food(Meals Out, groceries, and daily breakfast/lunches etc) Transportation(Ubers/Public Transit) Misc Expenses(Dropbox, Spotify, Audible, etc) Gym(Equinox, but at a discounted rate) Rent(~$2k)

And even with all of that I max out 401k, put more money into a trading account, and still feel like I live a luxurious life for a mid 20s professional.

Looking at your description I think the biggest expenditure that I you spend on that I don't is travel. Going to Europe/Skiing in Colorado are thousands of dollars each time. Honestly, 2-3 of those trips a year would probably run me like 10k or so. Add in a trip to vegas and some other misc expenses and that pretty much wipes out my 401 contribution.

If you really want to travel, I'd start working on credit card churning and use points to go nice places. I've been working on that and its pretty easy to amass a pretty big balance of points that can be used for vacations. It especially helps if you're a big spender.

 

So two parts to this. The first is practical. The second is philosophical.

The prop traders I used to know in Chicago always said that learning to break even and then make money as a trader was about figuring out how you lose money, figuring out what were your losing trades, figuring out why you made them, how to avoid them going forward.

I suggest you do four things to get the big picture snapshot:

1.) Calculate how much money you bring home every 4 week or 1 month pay cycle. This should be pretty easy. Get your pay stubs. Also take a look at your annual bonuses, but this should be considered separately from your salary. 2.) Calculate how much you spend on your credit cards. Again, this should be easy. Review 2-3 months of statements. 3.) Add to all of this what you spend on rent - $1900, apparently. 4.) Figure out how much you spend outside of your credit cards. I try to put everything on my 2% cashback credit card, so this is only a couple hundred a month, plus a disability policy and my electric bill.

Give us a breakdown of what you've spent on in the past three months besides rent.

Your rent looks in-line. I was spending $1900/month for a JR 1 bedroom in Midtown West. I think you may be able to save a bit with a roommate, though. Something to consider if you're not already doing it.

Now you have a rough estimate. We'll need to go down the credit card bill and make some adjustments to it-- ideally we'd take a 1-year average of your spending and then start doing some adjustments to the capex.

But I think, deep down, you're a finance guy, and you know what you have to do and what needs to be done to fix this. You're unmotivated to do it. So we need to get a bit more philosophical to fix this.

I could tell you that historically, equities have returned about 6.5% per year after inflation. If this trend continues, and if you can build a portfolio that sustains a 4% withdrawal rate at retirement, every dollar you save today is 50 cents per year at retirement. If you save $50K next year, that's $2000/month in retirement. Or if you buy the right dividend stocks, that's $200/month in dividends, taxed at a mere 15%. One of my behavioral tricks was to stick my money into dividend-paying equities. Today, I think the stock market is a little bit overvalued so I stick extra money into my mortgage, although as rates rise that is going to shift towards CDs.

I could tell you that having money in the bank makes it a whole lot easier to sleep at night when you screw something up at work or your firm announces layoffs. That there's a hidden interest payment on cash or even cash equities.

The secret to saving more money isn't to hate spending money-- it's to enjoy saving money more than you enjoy spending it. Skipping a trip to the Keys might save you $3000, but the real fun in that is that if you stick the savings into Exelon or Brookfield Infrastructure or Prosper (online lending), the dividend next year will give you enough money to eat out ~3-4 times at a really nice restaurant (I define really nice as $40-$50 per plate)- and you'll still have your investment at the end of the year and can use it to pay for the Keys then.

I also enjoy measuring my runway. If I liquidated all of my assets and never worked again, how long could I make it? Right now, that figure is 5.5 years strictly in terms of liquid net worth. If you count the equity in my condo (which I measure net of expected transaction costs), that increases to 7 years. Now, 18 months of that figure is emergency savings which isn't earning any returns, but the balance-- 5.5 years (including the equity), is probably earning a 6% return after inflation on average. So every year I work, if I save nothing, my runway increases 3-4 months on average. My assets are now pulling roughly 1/4-1/3 of the weight of my lifestyle. That's a really good feeling to have.

But I got here by measuring my runway in terms of being broke, then having a few months of expenses, then several months of expenses, then a year and some months. By the time I got to a year (and it wasn't long), my assets were compounding at a material rate-- enough to sustain 3 weeks of living expenses every year. It was incremental, and every time I got tired of saving, I thought about where I had started ($0), where I had gotten to, and how much better I felt for having that money saved. And it kept me going.

So that's why I enjoy saving money. Maybe you can enjoy it, too.

 
OppositesAttract:

is 20K in non-401K savings after two years really that bad? Assuming you've maxed out your 401K (36K after two years), I would imagine that the additional 20K in post-tax savings on top of the pre-tax 36K in your retirement account is more than what most analysts in NY have saved in your position.

Before I got my MFE, I always lumped all of my (vested) savings together, aside from my emergency fund analysis. I always planned on grad school and I knew those funds could be accessed to pay for tuition without penalty.

IMO, the goal of every first year analyst should be to save 20% of your salary and 80% of your bonus on either a pre or post-tax (marginal) basis.

For a first year earning $80K + $70K bonus, that works out to $18K pre-tax 401k, with $38K + $16K pretax left over from the bonus, or $54K pretax. There's a bit of a fudge factor in figuring out the tax rate here because your tax rate isn't constant-- above $118K you stop paying social security and above ~$100K your federal tax rate jumps from 25 to 28%, but let's just assume an average tax rate between $75K and $130K of 26.5% federal and 4% social security (you can do the exact calculation if you'd like). NY state tax is an additional 6.85%; medicare is 1.45%. The city tax is roughly 3.5%. You'll get some federal tax deductions in there for the local taxes- call that -2%. So your net tax rate is about 40% from $76-130K, give or take a couple percentage points. So a good first year analyst could hit $32K/year + $18K in his 401K if he's earning street ($80K) and gets a good IBD-type bonus. (IE $70K).

Very rough benchmark, but a serious saver working in NYC finance for a reasonable firm can save 20% of his salary and 80% of his bonus on either a post or pre-tax basis. (I am not expecting you to save $16K post-tax on a $80K pre-tax salary-- just to put 20% of your salary into a pre-tax 401K or save 20% of your take-home salary if you do not make 401K contributions).

This is a good benchmark, not something you MUST do. This is how I lived my first year in the city. (And before you ask, I lived in a $720/month bedroom in a mediocre apartment run by a crazy landlord in Jersey City on the last safe station on the PATH train. But back then, street was $60K... they decided to up it to $70K the next year)

This is not something you have to do forever, and your lifestyle can expand with your income. But it's an awesome feeling to sock away $50,000 your first year out of undergrad. That's $750K at retirement for a post-inflation return of 6.5%.

 
shootersix66:

People are way too practical on this forum. I finished second year, in 3rd year. Got $500 saved. You should party, have fun first 5 years, get it out of your system. Once you start making some real cash after 5 years, then you can save big and partying will die out too.

I used to go out and take trips every weekend my first year, and now, it's just less exciting and do it maybe once a month.

So, have fun and in 2 years, you'll automatically start toning down and therefore start saving.

I disagree. Every year you get older, it gets harder to work. It gets harder to save too.

Think it sucks to be 22 living in a ramshackle apartment in Jersey City working 70 hours a week? Try being 32 or 65 living in a ramshackle apartment in Jersey City working 70 hours a week. Your bones and your back don't enjoy waking up for work quite as much as you get older.

I'm not telling you not to spend any money on fun.

I'm just saying to spend the money carefully and on experiences that are high on fun and moderate on cost, and fun to do when you are young. I finally started budgeting for fun stuff when I was entering my third year of work-- about three months after the bottom in March 2009-- when I knew we were out of the woods and equity prices were no longer insanely cheap. The amount worked out to about $4,000 per year, which got spent on hang gliding, sportbikes and SCUBA diving. The tens of thousands of dollars I didn't spend on bottle service and vacations got put in the stock market.

While you were out partying, I was soaring the ridge at Ellenville-- waiving at tourists looking up at the hang gliders. And when you finished your third year with $500 in the bank, I finished mine with enough money to pay for grad school.

I'm not saying don't spend money-- I'm just saying that your biggest asset as a college student is being happy and comfortable in a thrifty lifestyle. You should definitely expand it when you start working... but expand it thoughtfully and try to have as much fun saving as you do spending.

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