Investment Banking for females - What is it like ?
Hi everyone,
I recently got interested in this as a possible career path. I did research on females in IB, but a lot of what I found was just about how horrible it is. Or I end up on pages about gold diggers targeting male IBers. Just trying to get some insight on how females are perceived in the field, and some experiences from you if you're female.
I always hear about the frat-like feel, models and bottles etc .. But where do the girls fit in here ? What is the male to female ratio like ? Do the females hang out separately from the males, or do they join in on the bottle popping ? What about the females on the higher ranks of this career ? What do you think is generally the kind of girl that goes for this field ?
About me: Girl. 20 yrs old, senior (BBA). Love finance, trade in my free time. Caribbean. Studying, born and currently living in Amsterdam, the Netherlands (moving to USA in the following years). I know I have quite a bit going against me for this (foreigner currently, minority female, found out about IB late, attending foreign non-target university) .. Any advice is welcome.
Being a minority female does NOT go against you lol
I'm not going to lie, this can be a tough field for women in the long run. You'll feel like you are being passed up on promotions or being let go because of your sex, and in some cases you may very well be correct. I've seen BBs discriminate against women, and personally know women who have settled sexual discrimination cases with BBs for substantial settlements. With that said, the workplace is far more inviting to women than it used to be. Obstacles will always exist no matter where you go, so if IB is really what you want then go for it.
I come from a non-IB background, but have spent quite a bit of time in male-dominated groups.
It can be a very hard line to walk, and you're constantly searching for balance in literally every aspect of your personality (be fun, but don't be TOO fun; don't get easily offended, but don't internalize the shit that really does upset you; be assertive and don't let people talk over you or dismiss your ideas, but don't come off as bitch so make sure you modify everything you say by making it seem like a question or a suggestion, etc etc etc). It's not so bad at the junior levels, but I think you can definitely see and feel it more as you get older.
Feel free to PM if you have any more specific questions about my experince.
To be fair, everything you said is pretty good advice for junior level, male bankers as well. A surprising amount comes down to attitude and a chip on your shoulder won't do you any more good than it will does that one dude that nobody likes because he's constantly spouting negativity.
From what I've seen as a dude, the women who are most successful are the ones who are competent, confident, and drama-free. The biggest mistake I've seen is women trying to imitate men. It's a mistake, because what a lot of people think "men" act like is usually not how the most successful men act. You've almost certainly got a massively better ability to read people than your male peers, better soft persuasion skills, and you look better. Be pleasant, be professional, and most of the younger guys wont' care. Can't speak for the older ones.
It is definitely doable. I am acquainted with one female at Barclays(some of you might know who I'm talking about) who has managed to wield a massive amount of influence over the company as an associate to where she is more or less a gatekeeper for MBA recruiting. She's very direct, very professional, and very people smart...and she didn't get to where she is by trying to by imitating someone else. She crafted and managed her own unique brand.
I cannot echo this enough. There is a female in a high level position at my firm and whenever she visits we go out for drinks where she spends the entire time trying to be one of the guys. Making stripper jokes, talking about football, etc. I mean not in a natural way either. It is constant during the entire conversation and obviously forced. Maybe some insecure little betas find it endearing. However,I find it annoying and it makes me think I can't trust anything she says since she's always putting on a grotesque façade. The world has changed so much I think it best to just be yourself. Yes there may be some misogynist leftovers from the Madmen days, but their numbers are dwindling and with that their power over your career.
Conversely if you are some crazy femnazi who constantly spouts bullshit 77% statistics and the like, no one will like you no matter how progressive. If that's really who you are you would be better served going into law or journalism as your passions will not align with anything in finance.
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I have several female colleagues and they expressed there are a lot of challenges (some obvious, some not): - Colleagues will sometimes change their tone in mixed company (you won't be one of the "boys"). Or hold doors open for you (chivalrous, but treat you differently) - Sometimes hard to get mentorship. Male senior bankers might be very conscious about having a closed door meeting with a female junior (or travel together for meetings, or get too close in general), whereas they wouldn't have a second thought with a male junior. Also, females bankers (at any level) are less common. - With some diversity programs some male bankers will wonder if you are a diversity hire or if you are actually good at what you do (will affect your staffings and responsibilities - a proxy for your professional development). That said, I've always encouraged women (and anyone for that matter) to get in any way you can (diversity program or not). I feel like IBD is relatively meritocratic and once you are in (no matter how you got in: diversity program, your parents are well connected, you just happen to be brilliant / hardworking), you have to make your own name off your own hard work - How to dress? What is appropriate vs. not.
Having said that, I think the environment has changed. It's not the wild stories you'd hear about from back in the 80's. IBD has become much more corporate (although it is weighted in terms of the gender split vs. other career paths or the general population).
Good luck!
look for posts by ItzWhitneyBItch , bankerella , snatch , and chicandtoughness . I can speculate on what it's like for women, but I think you'd get better advice by looking at those users' post history
Basically like a strip club. Girls usually give out a ton of lap dances on office chairs while guys slip dollar bills into their thongs
A little late to the party - I left IB/consulting in 2015 and haven't really looked back. But wanted to chime in a bit on how it's like being the token female.
I personally never had anyone comment on my gender. That's also because I tend to get along better with males than females in the first place. I grew up doing very stereotypically "guy" things, but I don't label myself based on my interests; I share them just like I would anything else. There's no need to go above and beyond to "fit in" - if you don't like football, then you don't like football, big deal. So many times I've seen female analysts try to "fit in" with the guys by purposefully swearing like a sailor and looking up yesterday's match results just so they could have some semblance of cooler talk. Don't be a tryhard, it's nasty and fake and unbecoming.
Misogyny exists, and you'll most likely be the target of it some time or another. I'll stick up for what I believe is right regardless of whether it's a product of my gender. Associate starts gawking at my boobs? Whatever, I'll probably laugh at his joke about it later anyways. MD tells me I can't take time off to see the ob/gyn because a pitchbook is due two days from now? Fuck him, I'm going because this potential cyst in my ovaries ain't fixing itself. Misogyny is inevitable; pick your fights. Douchebags are everywhere, not just in finance.
If you're smart, capable, and get your work done properly, no one will label you a gold digger or claim you got boosted due to your ladyassets.
To answer your specific questions:
What is the male to female ratio like? 2 female for every 8 males, depending on your group, your city, and your company. There were 2 girls in my group of about 15 at my M&A consulting firm; at my boutique IB there were 2 girls in upper management and no one at the lower ranks except me.
Do the females hang out separately from the males, or do they join in on the bottle popping? You join in. You're a team or something, right?
What about the females on the higher ranks of this career? They exist. And like anyone else in the higher ranks, they are capable and dedicated.
What do you think is generally the kind of girl that goes for this field? Women who don't have time to raise a kid. Is it doable? Yeah. But you ain't gonna see much of that kid's first couple years of life. And say goodbye to after-work yoga classes and brunch with the besties and all that. You put your head down and work. I had no social life my first year. Other than that, basically the kind of girl that goes for this field is the same as the kind of guys that go for the field - you either like the subject, the money, or both! Otherwise, it's not worth it.
tl;dr -- don't act like you deserve different treatment, but don't be surprised if you do. The fact is that we're still in the minority but that changes every year. The more you overemphasize your gender the more you alienate yourself. Just be a regular old person trying to make it in the crazy monkey pen, and you'll be fine.
(sorryforrevivinganoldthreadireallymissWSO)