Is unprofessional behavior common in IB?
Have any other MBA Associates or senior bankers dealt with unprofessional culture? I spent my pre-MBA years at a large organization with a highly professional backdrop and friendly culture. It wasn’t perfect by any means, but I never experienced rudeness or antagonism or disrespect. I’ve been on the desk for about 15 weeks now and at times the experienced junior peers on my deal teams have behaved unprofessionally, especially the analysts. I don’t see how an organization can be effective and operate this way. So trying to see if this is specific to my firm or if anyone else has similar experiences. Just curious. Please share your experience.
Welcome to UBS!
What behaviour specifically has been unprofessional?
This behaviour is common place in IB, especially in teams which are known to be “junior-friendly”. A lot of these analysts with their two years of number crunching feel they are know-it-alls and the praise they receive from seniors inflates their ego. With gender quotas, many MBA Associates tend to be green for the first 6 months, these analysts take advantage of the dynamic to shit on them and try to bypass the hierarchy to work directly with VP and above. A lot of times this crappy behavior is enabled by Staffer (non MBA, direct promotes) who see MBAs with their wider business exposure as threat and try to stir up the pit against them. You need to build a relationship with the staffer and then have a key MD or two be your ally in order to build leverage, after that point you can school these analysts. Btw, a lot of these analysts don’t plan to stay long term in IB so don’t really care as A2A promotions are pretty much guaranteed, so they can collect their cash and bail.
Helpful
Yes, helpful
what the hell is wrong with you lol
No, the problem is the culture of self-absorption and lack of self-awareness. It rewards politics and blame shifting over accountability and responsibility. It's basically the opposite of how you'd run an actual business.
Incredibly accurate view of banking
And because of people like you we can’t have fun
If you're a post-MBA ASO and you can't handle some 20 y/o analysts I dont know what to tell you
Depends on the company/group. I've had engagements at some highly professional and upbeat places....and some real dive joints with shockingly unprofessional culture.
How are you defining unprofessional? What specific things are they doing that you think are over the line? Just curious
Need more context, how have they behaved unprofessionally?
In my chicago eb, we compare sizes and no one bats an eye.
Deal sizes... right???
.
This doesn't make any sense without additional context. What are the analysts doing?
You're really edging us here, what exactly are they doing that is so unprofessional?? Sounds more like an industry thing where you say you come from "a large organization"...meaning some generic middle management role? I'd say the environment in banking is just different and maybe you're not used to the more aggressive nature of some of these guys.
Also, respect is earned. Don't expect people to treat you differently because you have extra letters next to your name. If you're unhappy with how you're being treated, pull them aside and get your point across.
Goooooghh
You should provide more context.
I’ve also seen more than a few scenarios of newly minted MBA associates coming in and thinking they own the place. That doesn’t inspire trust or deference from far more experienced analysts
I hope you elaborate because I think I know exactly what you're referring to but I would never complain about it.
I joined a banking team as an associate (didn't need to get my MBA to do it, FWIW) and many of the analysts were akin to the kindergartners in Recess. They had been through hell, earned their stripes, and now were cocky AF. When the seniors left it was a free-for-all, ties and shoes off, pranks, intense vent sessions about any and everyone, using the overhead conference speaker to clown eachother, paper planes, disdain towards anyone who was struggling, etc. etc. etc.. If you haven't experienced that in a work setting, I could see how your head could explode, but I found it fun, harmless, and the only thing keeping me from quitting. Not necessarily condoning, I just didn't think it crossed a line that wasn't commensurate with what we were asked to do night in and night out.
Curious what your examples are...
If this is wrong, I don't want to be right. This is how you get through analyst years.
Na it absolutely rules. Only part of the job I miss.
This is the culture I encourage
This is how I survived my analyst years and made lifelong friends lol
One of the best posts i have seen on this site in the past few years. If this isnt the most accurate depiction of what it looks like to be an analyst, i dont know what is.
Being a junior banker sucks. You make it more bearable by being crass, playing pranks, goofing around, etc. — in general, acting “unprofessionally.”
We had a no associate rule in our bullpen.
If an associate tried to walk into it, we should start throwing wads of paper at them and jeer and whoever the analyst was who “let” their associate come would be censured and ridiculed.
It was like a combination of Festivus and Lord of the Flies. Regular feats of strengths. Large orders of barbecue on Thursdays. I look upon those days very fondly. Most of those guys and gals are still close friends.
happens more with junior centric banks, for example I worked at a boutique and it was common for analysts to just quit on the spot, same day, and not give 2 weeks notice, when I asked as an intern why he would do that if he wasn’t nervous about leaving enemies at this boutique, he just told me “I don’t give a fuck”, so 🤷♂️, guess it’s pretty common nowadays idk
Kids out of college are immature and Gen Z have horrendous social skills and understandings of professionalism—COVID really hurt the maturity levels of many, it’s really as simple as that.
That said, there’s two flavors of what could be going on and I’m not sure which. If it’s referring to bullpen stuff of like taking shoes off and playing pranks, that’s a way to blow off steam for kids who really are unhappy and trying to have a little fun. Odd bullpen culture with analysts of jokes isn’t terribly abnormal.
If it’s in terms of your interactions with them personally, a huge part of me thinks you are the bad guy here. As others have mentioned, it’s overwhelmingly apparent to anyone that has worked in the industry how arrogant associates often are. The hierarchy of IB paired with insecure personalities of associates means many times associates think they are “in charge of” or “managing” analysts when they often really are working alongside senior analysts especially. You are going to get a communication break down and have a bad time if you start trying to tell a senior analyst what to do and they have been at the firm longer than you or have seen more transactions. The better way to go about it is viewing it as more of a group project where you have different responsibilities vs a chain of command.
The MD is the coach, directors are assistant coaches, VP is the quarterback, the associate is a running back and analysts are receivers. It’s fine for a quarterback to tell the running back and receivers what to do, but you are going to have a problem if you start thinking because you are the running back you can talk down to the receiver. Instead you need to be a manager and realize that doesn’t mean telling what people do but providing structure for what needs to be done.
OP here — The unprofessional behavior I’m talking about here is rude, snarky, or aggressive communication. The purpose of communication is to distribute information such that everyone is aligned on goals and execution and responsibilities. It shouldn’t be a venue to flex on the new MBA associate.
Last week, the analyst on my deal backtracked and apologized, not for being rude but for their error in work stream alignment.
Another time with a different analyst I gave a recommendation to which the response was “since you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you go head and change it yourself, I don’t care”.
On another occasion, I had a side conversation on the inappropriateness of another one’s approach, to which they acknowledged they could have gone about it in a more respectful and effective manner.
I understand that MBA associates may not have the best reputation historically, however it’s not fitting to treat a particular person a certain way because of a prejudice toward an entire group.
Going forward, I’ll recalibrate my expectations around professionalism for analysts, and when more tenured find opportunities to mentor be a value add in that category.
So two things:
I'm struggling to think how it could be a venue to flex on you unless you are saying something that doesn't make sense and they are replying with a snarky comment for how they think it should be done and you are getting bothered by that. You should try to avoid this interaction all together. As a manager, it is your job to skirt conflict and pain points, not cause sources of confrontation. Instead, I would recommend trying to take a more collaborative approach for workstreams. "Hey analyst, we have an MP next thursday. Do you have any recommendations for shells we can pull?" Ask for the senior analysts recommendation and if you disagree, just note you want to make sure your boss knows you guys are putting in extra effort or something. The point is you need to have the analyst thinking you are next to them, not above them. That's my analogy of you are a running back and they are a receiver.
This doesn't sound like the full story to me. It sounds like this is the conclusion of a back and forth. At a certain point, hop in the deck and do it yourself. Again, your goal should be to skirt conflict. You earn respect from the people you are managing when you assist with their job. This response tells me they think you are against them not alongside them.
You aren't their parent. This sounds like a bizarre moral lecture that would piss someone off. Instead, may I suggest, "Hey man, I could be overreading into this, but am I doing something that is upsetting you? I'm really sorry if I am. Is there anyway we can work together to have a better communication style and make this whole thing less painful for both us? How can we avoid having an interaction like what happened on wed?"
I mean yeah, these are functionally college kids and children, so you need to have a little more patience with them. However, much like children analysts are very easy to trick and get on your side. Here's a question for you, have you ever dropped this one:
"Hey analyst, do me a favor an log off, I'll grab anything that comes up tonight. Please get some sleep."
Watch how doing that 4 times a year makes you a folk legend in the analyst class. I once made an analyst cry because I told them I wasn't angry, I was just disappointed lmao. You need to have analysts wanting to work with you and use banter and flattery to make processes smoother.
I can tell based on the above you think you are in charge of the analysts and more experienced than them. That's going to be an approach that will have analysts resent you. They are largely arrogant, immature, and insecure kids. Flatter them, ask for their advice, and try to make them think you give a shit about their life and they will run through a wall for you. That's what being a manager is--it isn't telling people what to do, it's bringing out the best in juniors and having them play at the highest level possible. That often means playing a support role or not telling people what to do or dealing with bizarre emotions to get deliverables completed.
The shit attitude of analysts toward MBA Associates has remain unchanged over the past decade. Ran into similar unprofessional tactics back in the day and honestly, change shops. This attitude is enabled by staffers and MDs, these analysts will only mend their ways if they realize their comp will be penalized for this behavior which they won’t as seniors are desperate to retain them in most cases
This is soft. Based on the description above, sounds like this job may not be for you. The reality is, you currently have not earned their respect and are unlikely to do so if basic banter gets under your skin.
If you want their respect, plug in directly with them and outwork them. Until then, deal with your current set up or consider going back to school.
unprofessional how exactly?
Ok MBA associate lol
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