mid tier bb's and eb comparison
inspired by the other post about midtier bb's vs top tier bb's, can anyone talk about how they choose between EB and BB? would you take baml/citi over guggenheim/greenhill? or even over evr/laz/pwp/pjt/moe/cvp?
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I personally would rather work for BAML/Citi than Guggenheim (still a good shop tho)/Greenhill (hear they aren't doing too great). Places like Evercore and Centerview are in a league of their own. The other boutiques you listed are great as well but the two I mentioned have been gas lately, especially Centerview. Healthcare is fuckin boolin
thats facts. do you consider the other 4 top eb's listed (pwp/pjt/moe/laz) more on par with jpm than a mid tier bb then?
Just replying as a huge NBA fan - you have a bad username. Giannis is a top 3 player, undisputable.
Idk I don't work for any of them and am not a huge fan of ranking. All I know is that Evercore and CV are crushing right now, which is why I mentioned them. I don't want to work in PE so the idea of how banks place never crosses my mind really
Personally would take those over them. Have no idea what group you'll get and the average analyst at a top boutique places better,
I would personally take PJT/EVR/CVP/Laz over Citi/BAML/Barclays/CS over MOE, GHL, PWP, Gugg.
you’re saying you would take a mid-tier BB over Moelis... Group LAZ and Moelis together.
Key word "personally", I can group it however I want. I hated my experiences networking at Moelis and would not want to work there. No I am not salty as I will be going to another EB FT.
Headed to a mid-tier BB. This is how I would decide if I had offers at all of them. Note, these are based on my experiences. #2 and #3 are highly dependent on personal preferences for BB vs EB and lifestyle vs slavery.
Generally, EVR/PJT will always be above the mid-tier BBs and Greenhill/Gugg will most likely be below the mid-tiers (except maybe CS right now). If we filter down the Top Group(s) at these mid-tier BBs, then I wouldn't take any EB other than EVR and PJT over them.
I work at a mid tier BB. I'd choose Greenhill/Gugg over Citi. I would have to evaluate my connections to the top groups at Barclays/BofA/CS when deciding between Greenhill/Gugg. Group selection is a pain in the a**, doesn't get talked about enough on WSO
why are you putting barclays over citi lol
out of interest - why does Rothschild not feature on your list of preferences?
pls fix
Would u take BAML LevFin or CS Sponsors or Citi M&A over an EB?
I'd take BAML FSG and CS FSG over the non-EVR/PJT EBs.
^ This for lifestyle and exits
How do these mid-tier BBs stack up against EBs for top MBA admission? Do the BBs fare better simply for the name recognition outside of finance? Or do EBs pull the same weight in MBA admission as they pull in finance?
The sample size is generally not going to be very big - most EB analysts exit to something else before doing business school (if at all, which is becoming increasingly more common). I can't recall any analyst from my EB over the last few years applying directly to b-school from the program
Regardless, the set of admission counselors reviewing finance-oriented people will be very familiar with any EB firm
How well does admissions know about the big prestige differences between JPM and something like DB? Also, between Evercore and Jefferies?
all of yall are tripping imo. would take any of the top 6 EBs over any of the mid tier BBs. gugg/greenhill would be toss up though
Evr Pjt Laz Moe Cvp Pwp > BofA >> Citi > Barclays CS > Gug Ghl
Cap
Where? I might take BofA over a few of the EBs but I'd definitely take a mid-tier BB over ghl or gug
Does BofA / Citi pay bonuses 110%+ of base?
Are you trying to make a point about comp? Obviously boutiques have higher comp. Take your $10k, I'd prefer top BB platform and exits
.
I personally took an offer at BAML over LAZ (both in Europe) purely for fit reasons. I took the view that if I'm working 70+ hours a week with a group of people, I'd rather it be with a group of people I get on with. I also trust that being good at my job will give me access to the same opportunities later on, should I want something new - I understand that this may not be the case in the US, where bank/group is important, but I think that mentality is less prevalent here in Europe.
Deleted
Question from somebody at a "standard" EB. I never really understood how Guggenheim gets grouped in with Greenhill? When you look at their deals over the past 2-3 years...Guggenheim has done unbelievably better than Greenhill. Is Greenhill only mentioned in this EB discussion because of what it used to be?
Some people on here will say "smaller class sizes." But on a class size bases shouldnt we include the M Klein and Liontrees of the world? Doesnt really make sense to me
This site is just an echo chamber. Very few analysts actually post on these forums so it's a bunch of prospects retyping what they've seen from 2010. Probably should be used more for entertainment purposes.
I think some people certainly would consider offers at the two places you’ve mentioned over mid tier BBs. Assuming M Klein specifically isn’t grouped into the conversation more is bc they only take 4ish analysts from the same top 3 schools so they’re not a feasible option for most/if you’re not at one of those schools or in the industry you wouldn’t have heard of them. Also very possible neither of them come up more bc many people on the site are outdated as most commentators find information from old posts.
Forget mid tier lol at top targets lots of people take good EB offers over any bulge bracket including GS/MS/JPM. PJT Restructuring and Evercore M&A are in a league of their own and are the two best (and most sought after) banking gigs at the analyst level in terms of compensation, responsibility and exposure, and exit opportunities. Next tier is CVP, PJT M&A, Evercore Rx, Moelis, and Lazard -- whether you take these over a top BB is a matter of business model preference, but most would take any of them over a mid tier BB. Another thing to consider is that recruiting timelines for these jobs are super different -- take this cycle for example. PJT RSSG, Evercore, and Moelis are pretty much done recruiting. MS, and Lazard have given out some nondiversity offers, but have reserved spots for the fall. Centerview will only kick off in the fall, while PJT M&A, Goldman, JPM, and most other bulges will start in mid/late summer (and some will roll through the fall). All in all the odds you have overlapping offers is slim, and cross that bridge when you get there instead of starting a dick pulling contest online about a hypothetical scenario that you'll likely never experience.
Agree with everything you said except for Moelis and Lazard. Lots of people take mid-tier BB over them for culture reasons or because they have strong connections to top groups at the BB.
Agreed. Moelis actually exits better than Evercore if you compare the two by MF / UMM exits per year, probably due to the type of person who chooses to work at Moelis (very intense kids who're likely to prep a ton). However, college kids end up choosing Evercore over Moelis for other reasons Probably going to get MS because this forum has a hard on for Evercore
This is dumb. When considering your bank, you are either prioritizing exit opportunities or you are considering your bank as a potential career, so culture, career progression, and comp will be most important. Honestly, exit opportunities are a lot less about the bank / group and more about the candidate. Yes, a group like CS sponsors or Evercore M&A has had historically good placements and will continue on that path. However, this is less because of the group itself and more about the candidate. At any bulge bracket or leading independent bank, basically all analysts will have the same headhunters reach out to them. Since recruiting happens so early deal experience no longer matters, an individual candidate is far more important than their deal experience, group, or even the school they went to. An impressive candidate from Deutsche could easily get a MegaFund offer over a not so impressive candidate from PJT. However, because leading candidates tend to gravitate towards groups with historically strong exits, they tend to do better (although given the extremely accelerated nature of recruiting, I am convinced that many strong candidates who came to banking late or weren't able to navigate the process well are at so-called weaker banks or groups and there will be an increasing trend to seeing a kid from Guggenheim go to KKR, or UBS to Apollo). If you are prioritizing a career in banking, comp, culture, and career progression are more important, but generally speaking career progression and comp are more determined by an individual (although independent firms pay cash, instead of deferred options. However, EBs haven't really been long enough to see if you can move upward in one).
My personal ranking (I've worked at a top tier EB and BB):
Top Tier (all great places to work): 1. Evercore/PJT RSSG 2. Goldman/JPM/MS 3. Centerview/PJT M&A 4. Lazard/Moelis/BofA 5. Barclays/Citi/PWP/CS
Lower Tier (not anyone's first choice, but still get a decent banking experience.. not going to bother to rank): - UBS/Wells Fargo/DB/Greenhill/RBC/HL/Gugg/Jefferies
Having worked at both an EB and a BB, I think this forum favors EBs. I did a lot of pitching at the EB and have really seen the benefit of having a balance sheet. I think you just get more blue chip experience at BBs at least in my experience and that's what I've wanted. Obviously, depends on your group placement though and these rankings assume you're in preferable BB group i.e. M&A. I think people get caught up in the aura and elitism of the EBs because they're just smaller and there's a lot of mystique around their founders, culture, etc., but I've really liked working at my BB and all the resources the firm has to offer and walking into one of the tallest buildings in NY everyday with our name on the door and our own juice/coffee bar, etc.
Not sure about this ranking. 1. I'd exclude Wells Fargo and HL M&A from the list. Not at the same level as the others in terms of M&A. Jefferies, obviously a great bank, but not like the others either in terms of deal focus (lack of large cap advisory) 2, Seems like your lower tier is a bit arbitrary. Know of people who have chosen Greenhill / Gugg over some of the mid-tier BBs. I can't say the same about DB / UBS / RBC 3. I wouldn't put Goldman and Morgan Stanley below the boutiques. It comes down to personal preference and yes, some people prefer the more well-known BB brand
Congrats on working at Bofa!
1/2) I'll admit I didn't put much thought into my lower tier.. perhaps there are some out there who would chose HL RX or Greenhill/Gugg over Barclays/CS/Citi, but again, in my personal view, which I've qualified by the fact that I lean towards BBs, I'm not choosing f*cking Greenhill over CS. And trust me, I worked at Moelis/Lazard/PWP/PJT and we pitched like crazy for these stupid $250mm sell-sides and our infrastructure was just worse than at a BB. Plus nobody has heard of the firm you work for outside of finance and you're not even really an elite boutique so I believe -> when you're applying for corp dev at Stripe or some startup in two years, Barclays will take you a little farther than Greenhill.
3) In my personal view, you'd be crazy to turn down Evercore or PJT RSSG even for Goldman. First of all the culture at EVR and PJT is known to be exceptional. My friends who work at these places genuinely love it. You're making 50k + more than at Goldman. Exit are better. Culture is better. For me it's an easy choice, but understand some kids will never be able to say no to Goldman.
1) I see where you're coming from but personally don't agree 3) PJT RSSG for kids who want to do RX, I completely agree with you. That's unquestionably the best RX group on the street especially after the heads left Rothschild. However, when it comes to M&A, the choice between top EB / top BB is much less clear cut. I feel "culture" gets thrown around a lot when describing EBs but what exactly are you referring to (less hours, nicer people?)? I agree the pay is higher at EBs but I disagree that the exits are better. Probably the same for buy side, but outside of finance, BBs are better known. Your arguments against EBs in your first response would also apply to the other boutiques in your second response
3) I'll give it to you that exits are probably a wash and dependent on group, but I will say that my gf worked at PJT and the way that headhunters courted her blew my mind.. literally bent over backward to set up one on one coffee chats with principals long before on-cycle ever kicked off. She's at a MF. To you second point re culture, a big thing I was alluding to was openness during recruiting, but beyond that my friends at EVR and PJT were treated pretty well.. obviously, I'll give it to you again, this is totally subjective, but based off of 5-6 touchpoints of analysts who didn't want to kill themselves and... that made an impression on me.
Not sure why I'm getting MS but will post with my username so anyone can DM if they disagree. I haven't said anything negative about any bank, just that exits are a wash at that level, but apparently that's not appropriate to say on this site, given the heavy EB bias. I work at a BB so was honestly just curious what you meant by culture, not criticizing you or anything. PJT definitely has stellar exits but in this case, it could be the fact that headhunters heavily target women (like your gf). I've seen similar things at my bank and I certainly don't work at a top BB. HHs heavily recruit women and set up coffee chats / cocktail events / workshops. Agreed, if a firm is open to recruiting, that makes a huge difference and I would consider that good culture
I didn't toss the MS for the record. Staying anon just because I've revealed some personal info.
EVR/PJT/CVP are on another level than the mid tier BBs
Here to watch non-certified keyboard warriors argue over nuance. Cheers.
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