Morgan Stanley NYC vs. Moelis NYC
Hey WSO,
Basically have offers from the banks in question (MS NY and Moelis NY) as a new Associate. Both offers are generalist (for now - MS places us into groups a little down the line). Wanted to get your perspectives on how you would approach this decision. So far, I've liked the people that I have met at both banks and my goal is to stay in IB for the longer term (open to any potential, rare buyside opp that I may choose to pursue in a couple years, in case one of these banks is vastly better than the other with regards to IB Associate-level buyside placement).
From where I stand, MS has the wider brand recognition but Moelis is likely to have significantly higher pay at the ASO level and onwards. I've heard conflicting things about Moelis' sweatshop reputation (some say it's still very much there while others claim it's overblown as of 2020 and is as good/bad as any other EB). I have a strong network of alum (CBS/Wharton/Booth) at both banks.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
As an associate? Moelis pay will be significantly more. To some extent it comes down to personal pref — are you relatively sure that you'll get placed into group A or B at MS? Do you like those groups? Do you want to be in that specific space? Do you prefer an actual generalist model? How important is comp to you?
Hmm good question. I do prefer a generalist model, which Moelis has. MS does too, initially, but after a year we'd be placed into groups. Though I prefer the Moelis generalist model, I do think that MS will give me the chance to do more large-cap M&A (a lot of Moelis' M&A deals appear to be at the mid-market level)
Out of curiosity what is MS Aso pay vs Moelis Aso?
Since when MS has generalist Aso programs?
Also interested
Went through a similar situation choosing between top BB/EB. I went with the BB. I spoke to many in the field and they all told me to take the name over the money considering I was looking to be a banker long-term. It is easier to get promoted throughout a BB and you gain exposure to all products and services that a BB has to offer which will be beneficial for you down the line. They also told me if I choose to leave to a different firm, it is much easier to lateral from BB to EB than EB to BB.
At the end of the day, you can't go wrong with either and unfortunately the tough decision really comes down to brand name vs compensation. I hope this gave you a little more perspective from my similar situation going through summer analyst recruiting
Appreciate the perspective - SB'ed! Makes sense that it's easier to go from a BB to an EB, rather than vice versa
How has your decision panned out? Any regrets or insights on choosing BB vs EB?
I think boutiques are great if you plan to stay long term. The comp differential in the short-term is not worth the risk of getting a very limited experience, in my opinion. MS (and JPM, GS, BAML, CS and some would say DB, UBS) pretty much guarantees you a broad experience and strong deal flow within the group you get placed into. You are able to build tons of connections and moving to the buy side is feasible. Boutiques' performance is very dependent on "trends." One year Moelis is killing M&A in the retail space, and the next it has all teams sweating to win mandates. So per the post above, I agree. Depends. What is important to you?
I would also agree to go with MS if you're in it for the long run. You'll get a much broader exposure and will likely work less hours than at Moelis while still getting a solid experience. The brand name recognition of MS is worth the reduced pay IMO.
I had to make a similar decision between top BB vs EB as an Associate as well, ended up choosing the EB. No regrets. I've heard the Moelis Associates have an insanely awesome time - everyone seemed very close, work hard play hard mindset with tons of nights out together. Awesome bullpen and heard that people really go the extra mile to help each other out when it comes to exits. Every Associate there that I've talked to has thoroughly enjoyed the experience.
Don't think brand name should be a consideration if you're planning on staying in finance long term - it wasn't for me. Let's be honest, everyone in IB/PE knows what Moelis is lmao.
Agreed with your points, sir. Bullpen experience is very valuable to me, given how much time we'll all be spending together. That being said, heard the MS associate bullpen is pretty fun too haha
Interns still hear that Moelis is a sweatshop.
Really? I feel like as an intern all I've been hearing is "in the early 2010s, but not anymore!" I feel like Moelis is really trying to stop that reputation
It's an interesting situation and no real wrong choices here - some thoughtful responses above, too. Would love to get the wisdom of @AllDay_028" and @Jackstack" in this as well - solid perspectives when it comes to the associate experience
Congrats OP, really good problem to have. You can't go wrong with either. Curious to know if you secured the offers through FT recruiting. From what I can see FT recruiting for Associates hasn't started just yet.
If you ever intend to switch into corporate down the line --> MS does offer a broader range of exp -- i.e. debt / equity raises as well as M&A of course. Moelis --> pure advisory. Just another consideration. Of course if you'll be staying in financial services forever then this might not make a difference.
Damn - good for you my guy, great choices all around. If you've already gone through recruiting, then you know MS is the closest to an EB that any BB will get - there are no wrong decisions here, so I'll just mention a few additional points.
One thing to remember is that at MS, you are going to have to do the whole networking/recruiting process all over again when you place out of the pool. Some people love that and excel at is, others just want to get and find their group naturally. Are you going to be upset if you place into a group that is not your first choice?
I would also think about the cultures - are you more apt to do well in the hard charging, work hard party hard fratmosphere of Moelis or the still-fun, relaxed but more political scene at Morgan Stanley?
SB'ed! Didn't even take into account having to network again, although I don't mind that. Currently leaning towards the work-hard/play hard culture of Moelis lol
Unless you're pretty set on a long term career in banking, I would go with MS for the following reasons:
Broader experience in terms of M&A and capital raising, which will be useful if you move out of banking
Stronger brand name (out of high finance) again in the case you want to move out of banking
The group placement process from the pool will allow you to get a very good sense of which team you want to work with and the culture of that respective team. Associates don't really need to commit to a group for 6+ months, so you can try out 3-4 different groups and really see what is the best fit for you. The groups are very very different, so I think this is extremely important. The associate pool is also just an awesome place to work, with literally no possibility of Face Time, with the camaraderie of being around a large number of others your age. Basically the same as the analyst experience minus the face time.
If you want to be in banking long term, Moelis will probably make you a lot more money, though, so that is something to consider.
OP here - thanks for the great points! I definitely agree on the broader experience parts and stronger brand name. However, how much of a pay gap are we realistically talking about here?
I know EBs don't really bucket as much so guessing avg. Moelis ASO1 comp would be ~$150K base + 100% bonus (please correct me if I'm wrong!). Would I even come close to this at MS? And would this pay gap widen as I moved up the ladder?
I don't have recent MS associate comp figures, so not the right person to answer this. If I had to take a guess, I would say $30-50k a year at the associate level would be the approximate difference. At the VP level you probably won't get much clarity from anyone on here, as it becomes less standardized in terms of bonus and frankly the VP IB data points on WSO are just few and far between.
A lot of MBA associates at MS used to stay the 3 years as associate and leave after getting the VP promotion (around Feb / March). In that case, I think the trade-off in comp makes sense. Stay beyond that and the difference will likely end up being quite substantial.
Edit: if you do end up going with MS and want thoughts on groups, let me know, happy to help out or at least share my thoughts (which could be dated at this point).
OP - congratulations on these two awesome offers. I'm not in a position to offer you advice, but just had a question.
I know in the past, people have mentioned if your goal is to become an MD, better to consider starting at BBs. Is this no longer the norm?
Then again, who knows if they're actually going to become an MD (attrition, fired, etc.). I am not sure whether one should make a decision based on what's going to give them the best chance of becoming MD, because it's so far down the future (10+ yrs). It's just BB MD --> EB MD is so common.
I know Evercore actually lists on its website how many SMDs were internally promoted. Not sure if Moelis does the same, but worth checking out.
I've also heard on WSO that it's easier to become an MD at a BB, but I'm not so sure about this. Speaking to the Moelis guys, they tout their homegrown MDs (Ken himself has stated in interviews that ~35% of their MDs have come up within the firm). Although, yes, you do have more products to offer at a BB, I believe there is just more white space at an EB to carve out your own path.
In my personal opinion, if I was in OPs shoes and intended to stay till MD, I'd take the Moelis offer. Just too much money left on the table otherwise
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