PIP in the UK - urgent
Been told I will be put on a PIP (I am in London). Obviously shocked. There are some external factors but won’t get into that.
Alternatively, they offered 1 month severance if I resign before this starts (and can claim I work at the firm during my notice period)
What should I do ?
Do PIPs show up during reference checks ?
If I am fired after the PIP, will this show during references?
In the UK, will I get any severance if fired after a PIP? ie, if I decide to leave the company, am I better off with 1 month salary or by being fired ?
Edit: I am not anxious about cost of living. Although obviously I would prefer losing as little money as possible in the process, I have ~3yrs of living expenses saved up if needed.
Just went through a PIP but in the U.S. I think every company is different when it comes to the PIP. Some it’s the very last step needed before termination and others it’s the beginning documentation, which is what my (former) company did. My situation was quite unique in that it was an original 30 day PIP but I got it extended and ended up being a 90+ day process. I was fully aware of what they were doing but played along because the market was dead and I needed as many paychecks as I could get. I made a double effort in excessively documenting all my emails and work product while interviewing around. I gave them hell and kept them off my back temporarily but they ultimately told me that I “improved” but not at the level they wanted and will proceed with the formal process during the review cycle. Thankfully at this point I already had another offer so I was gone anyway.
I would recommend that you take the severance and recruit 100% full time. My PIP process was honestly one of the most miserable and stressful periods of my life. I didn’t make summer plans because I thought I was going to lose my job and put my life on hold to preserve my savings even tho I was working harder than ever and felt like it wouldn’t end. I wish I could have gotten a severance.
I spent a ton of time researching PIPs on WSO/Reddit and the general result is that people got better jobs than what they had before. I thought they were lucky and were the exception but it was my result as well. Good luck man, you’ll make it out just fine.
Thanks for sharing your story!
Did you really find another position in 60-90 days incl. reference checks ? How did you go about that? Did you just recruit anywhere to find any job at all cost?
Did your new employer find out about your PIP in the process or did you manage to avoid that?
Yup, found a position in less than 90 days. The day after the initial PIP meeting I blasted out my resume to everything and took every interview that came across. New employer won’t find out about PIP because employers only confirm dates and job title. They may use “regrettable or non regrettable attrition” language but that’s about it unless someone back door reference checks you. I wasn’t asked to provide references for my new role. I wanted to leave the role anyway and had a story prepared that was authentic and had nothing to do with the PIP anyway.
Two approaches:
1. Stay as long as you can. PIP will always end in you getting exited. But this can take 1-3 months usually. Will come out that you were exited on performance basis if they reference properly (someone puts in a call) vs doing a stabdard HR "he worked here from this date" reference.
You have the chance to just recruit during this time and then resign. More money in the bank.
2. Leave and have a story that you left because of x,y,z. You control the narrative. Again a chance someone makes a call into your firm and finds out you were being lined up.
Thank you!
What would you recommend ?
Do you always end up getting axed after a PIP? I know a counterexample that turned it around.
Should I chose to take the PIP and then resign before getting axed (ie take a 3 month PIP and resign 2 months into the PIP) will this show in reference checks or will they just say I resigned?
How often do firms do a full reference check vs. HR check on employment start date ? Does it depend by firm ?
Would you also know if people get a severance if fired after a PIP, or if they don’t if they are considered as fired for reason ?
I wouldn't try to "turn it around" as you're already tainted by the PiP.
Usually for associates and below you don't get off the record reference calls unless your new MD used to work at your shop and knows your boss.
Usually it's VP and above that requires proper referencing.
I'd go onto PiP and then focus your efforts on recruiting. Then if you've not found something at end of PiP you can resign and get your typical 30 day notice. Just get as much money in the bank while you look.
Based on the most helpful WSO content, here are some insights regarding your situation:
PIPs and Reference Checks:
Severance and Being Fired:
Decision Making:
In summary, accepting the 1-month severance and resigning might be the safer option to avoid complications in future reference checks and ensure you receive some financial support during your transition.
Sources: Urgent: PE Offer after being fired, Closed topic, One day to decide: US or UK?, https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/private-equity/leave-pe-early-or-stick-it-out-2-years?customgpt=1, Should I leave PE after a month and go back to my MBB?
If I am out on a PIP and find a job (either during my PIP of if I resign during the PIP), will potential future employers find this out during background / reference checks ?
You could try to go on mental health leave, extend monthly until the 6 months mark and still get paid. My US BB (CW) had some stipulations in their internal docs that put a higher burden on mental health leave once you're put on PIP. But it worked for me, had 9 months off while getting paid full salary, even got my bonus. I had very good reasons though and knew this was what I'm gonna do at some point anyways. With PIP I pulled the trigger and was off the day after. If they try to screw me, I screw them first.
loool this is hilarious, tell me you got something 10x better after too? Also how long was you in the initial role prior to you leaving?
Smart approach and kudos. An MD once brought up this approach in an informal conversation which I back then thought was a joke but based on anecdotal evidence, it works.
Honestly, I'm surprised that so few people pursue this route
Took voluntary redundancy instead of being put on a pseudo-PIP back end of last year in the UK, so my two cents:
- take it, as people have said before the likelihood is you'll get canned either way
- remember the payout is negotiable (I got c. 6 months comp all in as my payout)
- you can control the narrative and give as much or as little info as you want if you leave of your own accord, which taking voluntary is
- use the time off to chill out a bit, reconnect with anyone you want, get back in to any hobbies you may have let slip or pick up something new
- also on flip side use it to network with people across the IB/PE/VC/PR etc industry in London, you'll never have this much control over your diary
- remember not to take it personally - I let it affect me too much the first couple of weeks and it framed every coffee I had to start with
Thanks !
How exactly did you negotiate the payout ? What grounds do you have to negotiate if they want to axe you for performance related reasons ? Did you use a lawyer for that?
It became very obvious when I asked around a bit that it wasn't actually performance related but political (new head of the team made me a scapegoat) - on the payout I went heavy on the time I'd spent at the firm, how much I'd enjoyed it, and also stressed that it might take me a long time to find a new role given the hiring market. Also dangled the carrot of essentially "if my payout was more I'd be more incentivised to take it". Used a lawyer for advice on the settlement agreement and a bit on how to approach negotiations.
I was PIP'd at my last place. It was some made up excuse to do layoffs without saying layoff. (This was during the wave of tech layoffs). The newly appointed group head (who got his spot because former head of group was laid off) axed the entire team within 6 months of taking power. Me and another associate were PIP'd at the same time, then the third person who had some long tail project was promoted then axed like 2 months later. In my humble experience just take the PIP money and run. Don't even bother try to improve performance because the goals are nebulous at best and constantly shifting.
One of my metrics for improvement was quality of my communication. Apparently the new group head didn't like the way I labeled my files because it wasn't tagged with markers like "DRAFT" or "WIP" in the title. No offense but that's the most "f*ck you" reason to get rid of someone. My recommendation start recruiting yesterday because if the person who PIP'd you want you gone there isn't much you can do to change that fact.
Edit: Don't know much about London but in US the only thing the company can state during a reference/background check is the dates of employment. I was told they cannot say why someone left whether it be PIP, layoff, or voluntary departure.
Thanks!
yeah some people are weird…
Re: they can’t disclose PIP, couldn’t it come up if they backdoor reference you or sth like that?
The PiP on that backdoor reference is the least of your concern. If the person who did the backdoor reference is "buddies" with someone at the firm you're applying to, he's probably saying a lot worse than the PiP itself. That's why I would switch coverage groups entirely and do something different.
I went through a PiP to eventually fired from my team. If I were you what I would do is first accept that your future at the company is over, try to prolong the PiP as long as you can (i.e try to negotiate a longer PiP from 30 - 60 days). When I went through this I was naive and believed my team that I could work my way off this PiP; they even reassured me that as long as my work improved I would stay, but little did I know that it was just former documentation to show that they tried to work with me. I was eventually fired, and I can honestly say it was the most stressful and unhappy period at a job ever. As someone said in the thread here, I also didn't make any summer plans.
Next, if you do get fired before you find a new job, try to leave off good terms. HR is for the company, but you'd be surprised to see how humanly people can be when times like this happen. Try to negotiate them to extend your end date a little further, that way the issue of your last role being a super short stint vs just a short-stint will not be as impactful or questionable. Try to negotiate that with your VP and HR.
Lastly, talk to a lawyer. If you are fired, don't immediately sign anything yet. A lot of times (and people are catching onto this now) people who get on PiP's are targeted by their team for political reasons. Rarely does it actually have to do with performance. Likely what happened was that you rubbed someone on the team the wrong way they didn't like you, and wanted to find a way to get rid of you. Document everything throughout the moment you got put on the PiP and now, present to a lawyer and get more $ on severance.
Hope this helps, happy to chat if you wanna talk about it.
First of all, sorry to hear that mate! Good thing is Asoc roles are popping up across the City so you should be fine. Tackling your questions -
1/ What should I do? See below
2/ Do PIPs show up during reference checks? No
3/ If I am fired after the PIP, will this show during references? Not to my knowledge, usually the HR will give a standard reference "XYZ worked here from A date to B date and was an Title". Please check with your HR...
4/ In the UK, will I get any severance if fired after a PIP? If you've been a full time employee (i.e. not on probation) you could be eligible. Again please check with your HR...first £30k of severance is usually tax exempt per HMRC rules
Now the first and most important question
1/ What should I do?
Assuming you had some indicators of where things stood before the PIP, and you've been applying for roles. No one is going to be conducting interviews in August and people will only return from September (towards the beginning of second week), so expect any processes to really commence once people are back from Summer / School holidays.
> I would try and negotiate an extension (assuming you have some goodwill, now is the time to use it) - try and stay on board till end of October - you can try and use the above line re people going away for Summer blah, blah.
> Take the PIP (hopefully gives you 3 months) and continue applying for the roles. If you turn things around great, if not you have something else lined up.
Good luck!
To answer your last few things, I would not bet on things turning around after being put on a PiP especially if you're early into your role. I would view the PiP as notice that you are about to be fired, you're a moron to try and spend anymore time to try and turn things around at your company. Even if you produce "better" work, they'll push the goal post further and find another reason to fire you. They want you gone, so I would spend more time recruiting and getting a new job. Put the bare minimum in at your job and try to leave off good terms when you are fired. Try to get on HR's good side, they will probably slap your severance on-top of your employment dates so it looks like you were there longer so you can look better on paper and get a new job (that's what they did to me).
I wish you the best, please don't torment yourself trying to get off this PiP. A lot of the time PiP's are politically driven, not performance. There could be another person on your team making mistakes but getting way more leeway because they fit better on the team.
Also just want to let you know even after I was fired, I got screwed with an under the table reference so if/when you are fired please make sure that they put in writing that they will only provide your first and last dates of employment and no negative references. I could've sued for what they did to me.
To answer your questions, you should still get a severance even if you're in your probation period. I am from Canada but I know the UK is employee friendly with those clauses like Canada.
Will your PiP show up on references? No. it shouldn't, HR will confirm your first and last days. However, but it absolutely can if you're trying to lateral from a similar coverage team to another. This happened to me, I lateraled from REIB (my fired job) to REPE and someone knew someone at my last company and did an under the table reference which eliminated me from the process -- even though my VP was providing good references for me, they contacted someone else. That's why you can never really bet on it. I was thankful to find out that they did call my company from the recruiter, but often times you won't get the luxury of knowing. So that's why its important to have that in writing in your sign off so you are protected.
What I recommend you is if you want to get into banking again, have literal figurative distance from your coverage space if you were a coverage analyst. If you were in Tech, do FIG or Real Estate. You need to protect yourself because under the table reference checks happen all the time and you need to minimize your risks.
After what happened to me, I made the decision to completely get out of Real Estate and cover Tech. I am happy where I am and now I have a clean slate. I am not saying you should follow suit, but if they put you on a PiP like they did to me, likely the seniors don't like you and want you gone. They have way more control over your future employment than you think, and I would never trust someone to give you a good reference after they put you on a PiP. Think about it, but I would look bigger picture here and think beyond HR just providing your first and last date. This happened to the founder of WSO, Patrick, when he was fired from his PE shop. When they did reference checks on him, they would say, "yeah he worked here" but they knew that something went wrong.
You will likely need distance from your coverage space. Moving to a new city may be an extreme unless your market is tiny but start by moving onto another industry completely.
For you guys in the Uk, were you able to find another role, and how did you do it? Seems pretty hard at the analyst level
very hard to bounce back after getting fired in this market because of the slim postings. May have to do an MBA to reset.
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