Pushing back w pointless work
Working with a VP right now who seems pretty clueless. Gives very unclear directions, assigns work that doesn’t get to what we’re trying to achieve, and will pivot every time you speak with them on what the assignment is. A lot of the time it’ll end up in a half fleshed out page that never gets seen again.
I’ve been able to push back on some of the work by explaining what we’re trying to show and how their assignment doesn’t really get at that. But they’re just relentless and it’s like this nearly every night.
Honestly it just feels like they’re incompetent and should be let go (and I know that most of my coworkers would agree with me here…), but obviously I can’t say/do much as a first year.
It’s gotten to the point where I have started ignoring their requests because I know it’ll change 10x after I get started.
Makes total sense. You should stage a coup. I’m sure everyone will listen with your longstanding track record of months of experience
on a serious note, sucks to be you but not much can be done. I’d be careful before they write you up for attitude problems and you get a donut for a bonus. You’re only a few months in so showing a bit of humility would not be too bad of an idea
I would disagree with your assessment. I've worked for VPs like this (and have probably been this VP on occasion too). It's possible for a switched-on associate to give genuinely constructive feedback with without appearing arrogant or workshy.
OP needs to find the approach that works for them - for what it's worth my preference was always to try and be proactive and suggest analysis / pages rather than waiting for direction.
For different for analyst vs associate IMO. As an analyst you come across as a slacker in this situation (sucks but true), whereas an associate it’s different to “manage up” and push back with thoughtful commentary.
Would say you can do this to an associate as an analyst but I would be very skeptical with an analyst pushing back to a VP
For an Associate, sure. But this is an analyst a few months on the job. Even if he was right about the VP pushing back continuously still doesn’t look great. Most likely he just isn’t necessarily right about pushing back or misses context why things are done the way they are done. Very risky strategy
Banking can sometimes be somewhat of a Kafkaesque nightmare and the more you fight the arbitrary nature of the work the worse your life will get.
Stop trying to find some sort of balance or logical reasoning here, there is none. We are just meager pathetic AN1s, dumb cannon fodder that do what we’re told. Like good little boys.
Based
It sucks, but have to agree with the above commenter here. However, make sure you bring all of this up in your yearly review, and perhaps even coordinate with your junior colleagues. Stuff like this will usually come to surface one way or another.
Delete
Time to leave banking. Not kidding, I’m serious.
Look, the industry is built on rigid respect of hierarchy and low value adds so insecure managers can feel like they are adding value when really they are just in a holding pattern as they add years of M&A experience that justifies them eventually entering the relationship role as an experienced advisor. IB at a large firm is very political, iterative, and has little focus on results over relationships. Those VP’s will always remain above you unless they leave or you leave and they will always have opinions valued higher than yours because they are more senior unless they are brand new hires. This is the culture of IB.
You either need to accept it and eat your shit sandwich like everyone else, or leave. If you push back and rock the boat, it will affect your bonus and perception and will be the beginning of your exit. The only area you can get away with this is someone just hired because everyone knows new hires are really stupid.
Source: during my stint, I eventually starting pushing back hard on nonsense requests. I was good enough that people still wanted me to work on their transactions, but this created some enemies and ensured I was middle bucket. I don’t regret it because life is too short to deal with some ass clown jerking you around, but if you are known as the guy who pushes back or doesn’t tolerate bs work, you aren’t going to be the shining star of that firm. Further, it comes across as either arrogant and disrespectful in that environment because as mentioned anyone that has stayed in IB has rigid respect of hierarchy and paid their dues, so they feel entitled to unquestioning compliance. Finally, my advice—absolutely push back if you are a 2nd year and have an offer lined up, but if you don’t have an exit planned yet, you should start looking for one. Also, if you are a first year, you should at your year anniversary if you start pushing back. Also, you shouldn’t really be pushing back if you are in your first 8 months at a new firm. Good luck!
Great explanation.
This job's rigid chain of command and its' arbitrary non-sense are IMO major factors (among others) driving turnover among Gen Z analysts. This generation just does not respect authority as much as previous ones and believes its' voice should be valued and heard. A lot of the frustration I've encountered among bright analysts who have quit is exactly due to bullshit requests and formalities they've had to endure without being able to push-back.
In a way I understand that seniors should have more authority because they undoubtedly have much more experience and knowledge. However, a lot of seniors abuse that authority to mistreat juniors and create inefficiencies. Perhaps if seniors learnt to be more competent, efficient, and mindful of the junior experience they would encounter less dissatisfaction. Forgive me but this rigidity might be misplaced. This isn't the army and a life or death situation.
Alternate take though—it’s not a Gen Z thing, it’s just how insecure managers behave.
Individuals that are insecure with their position or can’t see the bigger picture because they aren’t smart enough, love to enforce their authority over small value adds—its human nature.
Gen Z isn’t smarter or different, they are just weaker since they are more aware of alternatives, less happy, and more anxious largely due to social media (whether LinkedIn, instagram, etc.). You need to remember, prior to LinkedIn really getting steam post Microsoft acquisition in 2016, most people weren’t aware of the jobs other people had. People are more likely to leave IB now than they used to be since they are constantly keyed into how many alternatives there are to IB and it’s just a more neurotic generation.
very well said
Yup, not much you can do at the moment unfortunately. For the fist 6 months, it’s implied you need to just take what you are given and you have to eat shit. You just got unlucky being paired with this VP.
After 6 months or so you can speak to the staffer and try to get off this idiot’s accounts. I’ve been there before myself, it’s not fun.
I HATE this. I'm going to copy and past a comment I made on a similar thread recently...
You need to continuously hold him accountable. Never just say "yes okay" and walk away when given stupid marching orders. Ask why. Not in a snarky way, just questions like "hey so help me understand - what specific question are we trying to answer with this?", "what is the end-point for this that we are trying to work backwards from", "can we sit down and come up with a concrete list of specific, answerable questions that we need to answer in order to feel good about our projections?"
Basically if you feel like you're doing a ton of work that will yield no actual value, try to passively invite your superior to see that there's a disconnect between the work he wants you to do and whatever the ultimate end-goal or question at hand is, by asking him politely what the link is.
Example:
Your VP: Can you pull 100 different PE firm logos and arrange them in alphabetical order for me please?
You: I'm happy to help, but for my understanding, what is the ultimate finished product we want this for?
Your VP: We want to include a few in a slide in the pitch deck where we describe the buyer universe
You: Okay, so ultimately what we want is to display a group of the 5 - 10 PE logos we feel are Tier A potential investors?
Your VP: Yes, that works.
You: Okay, to cut down on iterations, are there any logos you specifically want to see included?
Your VP: Yes. X, Y & Z
You: Okay. I will include X, Y & Z. I will shortly bring you a list of seven additional logos I think we should include so you can verify before I pull the logos and create the slide.
Your VP: Okay.
This is good in theory, I'd love to get to a point where this is the norm, BUT.....
In my opinion, this is absolutely terrible advice for someone 2 months on the job. It takes a good amount of tact to be able to pull this off, as a 60 day analyst, without becoming a pariah. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with asking about the bigger picture, but you'd do well to frame it in the context of wanting to learn, not to call out your boss.
I've been in this exact position so I can understand the frustration and there is a time and place for expressing your concern within the team. It's not now.
Agreed. This is wattpad fan fiction that would absolutely get any analyst blackballed.
This is really poor advice. I think this approach is the one you take in your imaginary day dreaming when you are mad. You try this as a first year and you are going to be replaced, blackballed or put in the penalty box real quick. I hate the IB environment as much as the next person, but you aren't going to accomplish anything from this approach. How is a newbie going to convince a VP that they know more about what adds value first of all? Why would a VP put aside his anger from this approach not just get another "will do" newbie to take this task? This approach would probably only work if OP was a top bucket 2nd year analyst.
This is a really good approach but to CharlesCheese point, it has to be tactful and framed appropriately, and likely outside the realm of an A1
Fair point. My initial comment that I copied and pasted from was geared towards an Associate with a difficult VP, not an Analyst 1 with 6 months experience. I didn't read the full original post.
Can confirm that I saw a few fellow analysts when I started out who did this and got dog-shit bonus or fired. Would only work if you're a 2nd year, and even still you'd have to be very cautious and respectful
What’s his background? Where did he work before? How can you say all your co-workers agree but nothing can be done about it?
A large part of finding "success" in IB is your ability to swallow and digest endless amounts of bullshit on a daily basis. Doesn't matter your seniority, you have a large stomach for bullshit and you will keep moving up until MD. With that being said, I know we are in an era of a friendlier IB working environment, but don't ever be that person trying to change the industry to your liking (unless your dad is a bigshot like that Goldman 13 guy). You have to be the one to adapt to the industry, especially when you are a newbie.
Agreed.
“Unfortunately, in a hierarchical structure, power relationships tend to determine the content; there is always the danger that a "rank-based" logic will prevail. Managers, intent on advancement, tend to supply the information they know their superiors want to hear, rather than the information they ought to hear. Large organizations tend, therefore, to become systematically stupid.”
― John Médaille
You might’ve alluded to this, but what if you just ask the question as it relates to the ask: what are you looking to accomplish?
Based on what he states, then you try to deliver on that. If he gives negative feedback, remind him of his answer to the above question. If you’re already doing this, then disregard.
OP, you say they so I'm assuming it's not just 1 VP you're having problems with. Are you 100% positive they are making you do meaningless work?
Read the book never split the difference and you’ll find out the most effective way to deal with this shit. I’m not kidding
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