Resignation vs. Termination
I've been banking for a few years now and have found myself in a bit of a disturbing situation. I just had another annual meeting with the boss only to find that they no longer need me around (easier to get rid of in this economy than promote). He's basically given me two choices: resign or be fired (the reason for firing isn't exactly clear, he just cited general performance).
Now, resigning would bypass any form of unemployment, but I'm concerned that being fired would put a permanent dent on my record.
Is it better to quit or be fired?
If a firm is trying to force you to quit or be fired, instead of laying you off, it undermines your ability to collect unemployment. It also acts as a workaround to them having to pay you a severance and most likely, it is illegal. Make sure you ask to see your personnel file. Companies are usually required to fulfill this request.
Before a company can fire you, they have an obligation to have given official warning. There needs to be written proof of this. User @tbroker shares his insight:
If you have NO official communication, besides this one meeting, showing your lack of performance, this is shady. Even if they have yelled at you every day if there is NO written warnings, HR visits, etc, this is very shady. I would go talk to HR if this is the case and say you feel as if the economy is pushing them to make an irrational decision and instead of laying you off and paying you severance, they are trying to save money and force you to quit over getting fired, and this is not fair.
In most cases, firms won’t discuss the reason for a firing if it is non-criminal. The reason for this is because there is liability involved. If they say, ‘So and so was ineffective’ and you are able to show examples where you were, or if it was never officially communicated to you, you can fight it. Therefore, many first will just confirm that you worked for them, the dates and that you were fired.
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That sounds really shady...I'm not sure it's even legal. By forcing you to resign or be fired, that prevents you from collecting unemployment (I think - do you get unemployment if you're fired vs. laid-off)? There is no "form" that will follow you around if you are fired but if future employers contact your firm to verify employment they may tell them the reason for termination - it really depends on the firm. Is there an HR person that you can discuss these issues with?
OK -
First, many firms if you are terminated for anything that is non-criminal will not discuss reasons, due to the fact that there is a liability involved. For example, if they say you had bad attention to detail and the firm still hires you and tells you that you can fight it by showing proof of the contrary or no proof that it was ever officially communicated to you. Therefore, most firms will just say, "Yes, "John" worked here from this date to this date.", and they will not discuss anything about you save employment dates and salary. This is usually at big firms where they talk to HR and never to your boss. There are also cases that HR people are chummy and they will say, "He was fired."
If you have NO official communication, besides this one meeting, showing your lack of performance, this is shady. Even if they have yelled at you every day if there is NO written warnings, HR visits, etc, this is very shady. I would go talk to HR if this is the case and say you feel as if the economy is pushing them to make an irrational decision and instead of laying you off, and paying you severance, they are are trying to save money and force you to quit over getting fired, and this is not fair.
However, if you have several official warnings and there has been no documentation showing any improvement then well just quit because they can, and will, legally fire you and your screwed. If you are a banker you should have some bank roll saved, I can only imagine how horrid unemployment is, and no one wants being fired affect their future opportunities. However, if you do have to quit you better have a damn good story, since you cannot tell anyone the ultimatum. A smart interviewer will smell out that you were told, "Quit or be fired."
Thanks for the advice - I will be speaking to an HR rep tomorrow.
I agree, the whole situation seemed a bit shady. I'm just trying to safeguard my resume from further damage - its tough enough looking for another job as it is.
I do have money saved, but I'd rather not start cutting into it when I could be surviving off of unemployment.
Make sure that you ask to see your personnel file. also, request copies of the entire file. I believe a company is legally required to comply with this request.
Also, a resignation may preclude any severance package.
What about a termination mark on the U4 form? Would something like that impede getting future employment?
Listen dude Given the current market getting fired is totally fine Never quit yourself, you will loose > 20K of severance...
You are seriously worried about missing out on unemployment benefits? Try looking into how much they pay out in your area - it ain't much. I understand the frustration of not collecting on something you have paid into, like unemployment, but it really won't move the needle in terms of your cash flow. Try asking your boss for a continuation and negotiate any additional payouts (what about a pro-rated bonus, or immediate vesting) while you look for a new job.
I agree that getting fired in the current economy is not a problem. It would also be extremely difficult to explain why you'd voluntarily leave your employment in this kind of economy, before lining up something new.
Agreed with nebanker and tbroker. If they are really trying to "fire" you, most banks generally have to have a good reason or track record to do so because they're so concerned about wrongful termination suits. Of course, the nature of "at-will employment" essentially means they can let you go whenever, but they still have to worry about the risk of litigation (since your suing them just means that they have to get someone to defend the bank, which will be money out of their own pockets). There's something funny going on here and you should definitely document any conversations or correspondences you have with someone telling you that you ought to resign.
Anyway, sorry I can't give you more details here but if I were you I'd just hang in there and see how things play out. In the meantime, I would probably resist talking to your firm's HR, and instead talk to someone who might know about the situation, like HR at a competing firm or even a headhunter or recruiter (since I'm sure they have to deal with these situations all the time). Do not act on things until you get more information. Let us know how things turn out.
Termination vs Resignation (Originally Posted: 12/11/2014)
Will future employers be able to tell whether the potential employee was terminated vs resigned during the background check? How can they tell if someone was fired/laid off vs left voluntarily?
They will usually do a basic HR check at your previous place of employment, where HR will tell them the conditions of your departure.
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