Talent / Industry is Dying
I have heard this before about “talent” leaving, mainly from people who can’t cut it (the good ones have enough perspective to know better) and the industry “dying”
On the latter point, the revenues don’t suggest at all the industry is dying, quite the opposite. I’ve never seen so many mediocre MDs getting low to mid 7 figures in comp, with the good ones doing much better . And believe me, these are very average at best individuals. The industry is doing great.
On the “talent” point, anyone who talks about the industry losing talent doesn’t get the joke. No one really cares. Most analysts are cannon fodder we chew up and spit out. Some survive and do quite well. But by and large after a year or two, most of you are useless. The strong survive on the buy side or sellside but outside of a few good firms and groups, most analysts are as mediocre as the MDs I discussed above. And right now, in this market we want a lot less “talent” at all levels.
Be happy this industry can pay mediocre analysts 6 figures and mediocre MDs 7.
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Lol no one would be an analyst if they weren't paid six figures
Lol in the LMM u find guys doing it for 65K
“Cannon fodder”, “most of you are useless”, “mediocre”, “can’t cut it”
With comments like these and people still wonder why intelligent graduates with self-integrity are leaving this industry to VC, FAANG, start-ups, etc.
Sure, you’ll always have 22 year olds grinding out pitches and churning out models, but the quality of incoming analysts will decline with your kind of mentality: why would an above average graduate join just to be treated like your doormat? In the age of war for talent, finance is losing its ranking.
This industry is rapidly moving past the age of treating people like garbage (and about time). If you are in the camp of “just be happy you are being paid 6 figures” or “I had it worse when I was an Analyst”, you are on the wrong side of history.
The “age of war for talent” sounds very 2021. The war happened. It’s over.
VCs, startups. FAANG sound very 2020. How are those Netflix stock options doing bud?
Had a pretty low IQ sellside MD come to our offices in mid-July: bad pitch + poor rep among his colleagues (confirmed via another MD on the same team). Now blacklisted.
Wonder if that was you?
I'm not sure this is true. Many people cashed out on equity from startups. Although market has gone down, total comp is still pretty good at FAANG. Work-life balance is pretty good. There isn't necessarily an up-or-out mentality. Upward mobility in finance has only gotten tougher given many EDs / MDs are 30s and 40s
If you consider the war to be over, then finance lost lol. I truly doubt the bleeding is even close to stopping though. The truth is banking analysts are still pretty underpaid for the shit they endure, even WITH the recent base raises. No one wants to work their 20s away, for let’s be honest, pretty mediocre comp when adjusted for cost of living and overall stress.
People like you are why this industry can suck and continues to lose talent. Maybe take a look in the mirror.
Damn. Crazy reading about people like Machiavelli from the 15th century talking about people like you. He'd prolly call you an idiot
Inb4 oKaY fUcKiNg InTerN
Is it better to be feared or loved blah blah but "among all things, a ruler must avoid being hated and despised."
Guess which you are
Most of the talent in IB are not qualified to be software engineers. It is a different skill set. You need to know how to code. You need to be fluent in many software languages, have a portfolio of projects and be certified in those languages. You do not even need a college degree but you need experience in coding languages.
The finance side of FAANG, which is FP&A, Corp Dev, Treasury, Strategy, can be obtained without being a banker. In fact someone who went to a non target who got am fp&a job in tech would have exposure to sql, power bi and possibly python, which would make them more skilled than a junior banker. Tech tends to hire locally and not all FAANG companies have NYC offices.
I tried to switch to a corporate finance role in a FAANG company from a Market Risk role in a BB. The interviewers at FAANG still think it is 2004 and people on wall street are all getting at least half a million in bonuses. Even though FAANG pays well, I was seen as overqualified.
I am not trying to discourage analyst who want to break into tech but I would suggest to expand your skill set beyond excel, manage your expectations, and network. I managed to leave banking and switch to corp finance and I love it, but it is a back office role. Even corp dev. You are really not going to be seen as the masters of the universe in those roles. Even software engineering is seen as a back office and repetitive role in FAANG as well as other industry companies.
OP is a dick. But playing devils advocate, what choice do people have? The country is churning out liberal arts students while countries like India are churning out STEM grads. Who would FAANG pick? They have their pick of the litter. Law school used to be a safe plan for liberal arts students in the 20th century but law school applications have plummeted now because nobody wants to have quarter of million in student debt when there is no guarantee you will be in big law and earn $160K or I guess now it is $190K? It is for this reason why you will have 200 applications for 1 analyst opening when there is a chance to earn 100K+ without going to grad school and will hire you even if you major in dance (lets be honest you need a pulse thats all). We all know this is not rocket science, even the "technical" parts of the job is essentially just plug and chug work you quickly learn and just get better with reps. Is it really that unfathomable that analysts wont put up with a lot (abuse, loss of dignity, etc) when one knows there are 200 other people salivating for that job? Sure an above average analyst will not want to be treated like a doormat and will leave for a place with better culture but my argument is you really do not have to be above average here and shops will be okay with the bottom of the barrel.
I like the idea that an MD is taking Labor Day to shit on analysts.
Are we actually an IB MD or are we taking a break from turning CIM comments?
I looked up the user, and their post history (and being a member for 10 years) suggest that yes they are actually an MD
Hilariously depressing? Depressingly hilarious? One of those for sure
The question we need to ask is how does OP become an MD in the first place. Is the industry toxic as such?
Is IB toxic? Most rhetorical question ever asked on this site?
The "talent" leaving is one of 2 things. The folks with a genuine interest in finance who are motivated from day 1 are going direct to buyside analyst programs (which have increased in recent years) - whether it's venture/growth, PE, public markets. For these young guys/gals, no reason to go grind it out in banking if you can go straight to what you want to do without compromising the benefit of having a training program, analyst class, etc.
For the rest who looked at banking as a means to high earnings and skill development, it is obvious that consulting/tech and other professions offer similar benefits without the personal sacrifice required
You're not wrong. The amount of "failing upwards" in our industry is appalling. If half my MDs got canned today, our bottom line would actually increase quite significantly. Literally only a gain for the firm. Am looking quite forward to having all this fat get trimmed.
Low EQ post if there ever was one.
There’s some truth to what you’re saying but…
IB doesn't make nearly what it once did back in the 2000s / 90s ("the good old days") if you were advising and underwriting debt for deals, etc. - that's just a fact. Also today you can just do almost the same job on the buy side and make much, much, more than you would as a banker (that is, in the long run - IB still tends to pay the most in your 20s though, which is why many do it briefly and then leave).
I knew brilliant MM MDs who had great deal flow, did well, then couldn't even afford a Hamptons house (I realize how elitist that sounds, but frankly we all know we did banking for the money). There's a very real ceiling today because you likely will never have >$20 million unless you're some kind of top .01% rainmaker.I respect those who do it (I did for 4 years and owe everything to it) but let's not pretend it's something it's not. Still a good and well paying job though.
I agree with you that 1-2mm a year of comp isn’t what it used to be and you’re not balling out in the Hamptons. But what’s changed since the 1990s is there are so many more bankers, almost all of whom are middle management bureaucrats and it’s astounding that they make that money relative to their talent.
Real bankers - the ones who add value to the clients and actually do the job (vs being paper pushers) - do a lot better than this, and can easily top 20 net worth by the time they are a reasonably tenured MD. I would argue that this is about 10% of senior bankers, but I think this is higher absolute number wise than the 1990s.
This is the issue....
IBD is not worth the effort for a 10% probability at 20 mill net worth.
Anyone would rather take the FAANG/Corporate/Consulting route and have a 10 mill dollar net worth and a good WLB. The difference is marginal these days. Someone with a 20 mill net worth is only living marginally better than someone with a 10 mill net worth.
Lot of us who went to Ivies came from wealthy families to begin with, we wouldn't kill ourselves for the 10% probability for a 20 mill net worth.
WTF ...
inflation is starting to creep up into the uper middle class and alot of these chads/stacys who go into finance think they're going to live out their lives like its the 1990s
more people are checking out of society everyday
whats the point of working/leveling up if your wages dont exceed inflation?
Alright Greg, there’s still time for you to take down this dumb post. I get that deal flow is slower YoY vs. 2021, but you might want to use that extra time and spend Labor Day with your family (instead of ranting about Analysts on WSO).
If you need an outlet to channel your PTSD from your analyst days, I recommend checking out your insurer’s list of approved therapists.
lol - I think this is a John. John, sorry you were finally confronted by mgmt for all the analyst/associate turnover you were directly responsible for. Look forward to the 1am call where you berate me for copying the other MD (more senior) first on emails to the client.
Hahaha, I love it when MDs get all ruffled when you don't copy them first.
fuck off, nerd
The impact of drinking during pregnancy is very clear from OP's post
Anddddd this is why for the most part only psychopaths stay in banking.
Monkey shit farming is real
Imagine being proud of how many mediocre MDs their bank is paying 7-figures to and not seeing it as the biggest red flag ever.
Evolve or die.
I agree with absolutely everything OP said. I have no idea why this is even controversial.
People saying shit like "Gee idk bro $400K - $2M isn't what it used to be" are fucking ridiculous. Maybe to some of yall trust fund mommy's boys it isn't, but for those of us who grew up in HHs making under six figures, it's fucking incredible. The fact that people on this forum scoff at six figure bonuses is, if anything, a testament to just HOW spoiled bankers are relative to any other general population.
Moreover, I think you're all missing the point. He isn't arguing that finance gets all of the most brilliant minds. He's arguing that we don't need brilliant minds because this job isn't rocket science and earning $400K as a 20-something doing a job that isn't rocket science and/or earning $2M as a 40-something doing a job that isn't rocket science, is a sweet fucking deal.
And enough of that "But Software Engineering!1!1!" shit. This is a finance forum for people interested in finance. 90% of the people on here have zero desire to do software engineering. It is in no way substitutable with IB as a career path (the way Corp Dev or PE is).
Finally, not every banking job entails working 100 hours a week for a sweatshop in NYC. I know plenty of people working 65 hours a week for banks in Chicago, Miami, DC, Boston, Philly, Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta, etc. The idea that good WLB doesn't exist in finance and/or that you have to live in the most expensive MSA in the world to pursue finance is so goddamned stupid.
if you live in a high cost of living area like nyc, LA, bay area 400k a year isnt really shit if you have a family or want a middle class lifestyle. i know lots of people who have are married and both spouses make about a 100k a year and they are struggling to keep up w the joneses
lol @ this clown world
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