Hi,
Have to be pretty vague about this, but anyway..
What would be best for a summer internship? A top tier nordic bank (top 3), a top 3 international bank’s hub in the nordics, or a lower tier global bank in London?
In terms on experience, resume/strong candidacy for FT-recruiting in 2024 when I graduate etc. I don’t care about prestige I just want to develop as much as possible and land a good paying job in IB after graduation.
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Do you want to live in London or the Nordics after graduation? That should answer your question imo
Nordics, yeah you’re right.
Just thinking the London-experience might weigh heavy during recruitment for banks here.
I'm Nordic and have been in the same situation so will share my thinking. If you do want to work in London and don't care about prestige then obviously the best thing to do would be to take the lower tier bank in London and try to convert that to full-time. If you do want to work in London and care about prestige, then a top-3 international bank in the Nordics will likely be a better choice. If you do an internship at GS/MS/JPM in the Nordics, that will likely help more than an internship at say Unicredit in London. If you want to work in the Nordics, it depends on what you value. Comp and exit opps will be better at GS/MS/JPM, but everyone I know who has been at those places in Stockholm absolutely hate the culture and the hours are rough. The Nordic banks pay less but have better hours. The same exit opps are possible. You can enter any major Nordic PE fund after working at a top-3 Nordic bank. Obviously, it's more difficult than if you worked at GS/MS/JPM, but still possible. With that said, Nordic banks will likely provide you with the best overall balance.
Thank you for your insight, very helpful!
If you want, you can PM me and I can share the bank in London as well. Not sure if it's worth going for it, I know very little of the London scene
I'm from the Nordics and interned at a BB this summer. I applied to the largest Nordic banks (Carnegie, ABGSC, Pareto, SEB etc.), PE firms and MBBs and landed interviews at all of them - international IBD experience is highly coveted in the Nordics and the exit opportunities are great if you're coming from a BB in London.
Pareto is not one of the leading Nordic banks......
Leading banks would be Nordea/SEB, with Carnegie/Danske Bank being a step below, even though Carnegie is incredibly ECM heavy.
In my region, Pareto, Carnegie and ABGSC places well above Nordea, SEB and Danske. My point is that candidates seldom has IBD experience from London and you’ll have an easy time recruiting for Nordic IBD later - although I suspect it might be different at the BBs in Stockholm.
Good job, have you received any offers yet?
I would say however, that Pareto is a joke of a bank haha
Pareto is definitely one of the top players in the Nordics if you look at deals and volume. Pareto is Norway’s leading investment bank, and only DNB and ABG are comparable. Nordea/SEB/Carnegie in Norway is a joke when it comes to deals and prestige.
I think living in the nordics is far better the quality of women and nightlife is unmatched even by London
Is the nightlife better than in London? That's a surprise, I've never been there but I would have put my money on London being such a big city
I think a major difference is that the world is extremely small in Stockholm, especially if you work in finance. The world of finance in Stockholm is pretty small and everyone knows everyone (if not directly, then through a friend). Most banks have 10-30 people employed in their IBD divisions. So you might have about 2-300 people working in IBD at the international and top Nordic investment banks. This is one of the reasons I personally would likely prefer London. Stockholm just won't give you an international experience or the experience of living in a big city. Stockholm feels very small, even though it really isn't that small in terms of population.
I’m Nordic as well so will chime in. Lived in London for a while and was thinking about moving back never had any issues with getting interviews just because of my international experience. I would spend a couple of years abroad and get a different perspective and experience before going back.
Also from the nordics and currently in London. Most of us intend to spend a few years in Ldn (both for work experience but also just seeing something else). Obviously better with experience from London if you want PE exits in the Nordics, but honestly not a huge difference. You're young though so why not see something else? Stockholm feels small quickly. WLB much better in the nordics though, nightlife and girls too
Sorry for being late to the party!
If your´re not about the prestige you should go for some of the top nordic boutiques that solely focus on IB. There´s better exposure to be had, more responsibility and leaner deal teams. In terms of technical skills you´ll learn those anywhere, but having sat on the other side of the table interviewing candidates in your spot, my general feeling is that the top Nordic banks will include you into more of the actual work and onto live deals to a larger extent. This will be valuable when interviewing for FT positions.
The posters above mentioning SEB, Nordea and Danske as top tier, may be correct in terms of deal value, but they´re all highly hierarchical bureacracys with very limited career progression outside the fixed trajectory. They also have loads of large debt deals, coming from legacy, with less advisory services to their name. I´d take ABG over Nordea 8 out of 7 days of the week.
However, if you are already interviewing with this many banks, you won´t have any problem with FT recruiting. You´re probably at a top program at SSE, NTNU, CBS, or NHH, and with good internships you´ll be able to secure an interview. If you can nail the technicals, and also talk about a real deal that you have first-hand experience with you´ll stand out from the crowd. Best of luck!
Thank you for your well well thought out answer, much appreciated. :)
I've actively chosen not to apply to IB:s without balance sheet during this cycle (Carnegie, ABG etc..), simply because my belief is that deals will be more concentrated to whatever house-bank the company has moving forward. I.e more deal experience during rougher times, I could be completely wrong though.
With that being said, I've chosen to accept an offer from a Nordic bank. I know from the past that they're good at handing out FT-offers despite having 1+-years left on studies which basically is the most important thing to me since I really hate recruiting and don't want to go through a FT-cycle when the time comes haha.
I think your reasoning might prove to be true, especially looking at ABG results for the last quarter. How transferable the overall banks´ dealflow is to one particular internship is hard to say, but I wouldn´t stress it, as there´s nothing to do about that now anyway.
Interesting thread. What are people’s thoughts on DNB Markets?
They're killing it in Norway and placed well on recent league tables - their large BS is definitely helping them now. Although I would argue you get better deal exposure at the other, large independent investment banks. The flat hierarchy will allow for a much steeper learning curve and ultimately increased personal development.
DNB is very strong within renewables from what I understand. Haven't really seen them on much else though.
They're also among the strongest (if not the strongest) within seafood, and have good sector teams for both O&G and shipping. TMT is another large area for them. I'd say you see them across the board, and within all large Norwegian industries.
I think it is one of the strongest in Norway. The only major drawback is their bonus scheme, where they pay out bonuses over years. I'm not sure if it is used company wide, but one of my mates gets 1/3 of his bonus each year. The reasoning behind it was to encourage loyalty and reduce churn, which has been a problem in the past.
In a similar fashion, ABG pays out bonuses over two payments, but in the same year. The second half of the 2021 bonus will not be paid until the end of this month/November.
I work in Nordic IB. I think if your main goal is personal development, go for one of the top-tier Nordic IBs without a balance sheet. The flat hierarchy gives you a lot more exposure and a steeper learning curve early on (rather than just spreading comps and making pitch decks). After just a few months in the job, I was presenting all my own work during meetings with clients, I’d step in if partners were absent, and after a year, the clients would call me rather than the partner to solve issues or discuss slides and models. The pay and benefits are also better than the conventional banks.
Carnegie and ABGSC are the top-dogs across the Nordicsz
EDIT: Nordic IB also has better WLB, though Carnegie/ABGSC/Pareto/Arctic are typically heavier than the banks
That sounds great, however I prefer job security / FT-security above personal development.
Carnegie has roughly 70-100 analysts (?), no way they can keep them all busy if the market continues to behave like this. My current internship has trouble keeping their staff occupied and they have around 25 employees in total.
Job security is much higher in the Nordics - Pareto is the only IB I’ve known to fire people during downturns. My IB is actually hiring more bankers atm, as we plan long-term and want to be ahead when the markets come back to take market shares
I'm assuming you're Norwegian, can you chime in on base salary and total compensation? Last year was a heavy outlier, but any idea what you should expect as An1? Trying to gauge the differences between London and the Nordics, the lifestyle in the latter seems very appealing.
First full year incl. bonus (paid the year after) is around NOK 1.0 - 1.5m at the big independents. Banks pay less
Local hub for international bank is the only answer here
Comp is the same as London based peers and over time it will be a multiplier on Nordic bank comp (which is shit)
Nordic banks will be on most large deals but the lead advisors on the largest deals are always international --> you learn more and get a better experience
Nordic banks are chasing a lot of crap that is not worth your time at a BB
Doing an internal transfer to London office is usually not that hard
Lower tier global bank in London sounds depressing af
While I agree that a local hub could be argued as a ‘hack’ (I.e. London comp in a lower COL city with better culture), the WLB of these hubs are all over the place. Boutiques like Jefferies and Rothchild have been known to slay juniors, and the BBs usually (depending on place) are heavily dependent on London dictating the terms, making work very unpredictable.
The pay is way better then Nordic banks, but some have stepped up their base pay significantly to stay competitive with strong bonuses. Not sure what base is at Carnegie/ABG, but heard they paid insane bonuses during 2020/2021
nordics sounds interesting
BB in the Nordics. Extremely small office, but deals are larger than at local banks, and pay significantly more (A1 c. €100k excl. bonus), maybe due to adjusted for higher tax?
I suppose with A1 you mean associate 1? Because €100k for analyst 1 in the Nordics would not be accurate according to my experience.
Analyst 1. The number is including pension benefit of 10%, so c. €89k excl. pension. We all just got adjustments to base. Just two months ago it was €75k excl. pension.
How do Swedbank stand against the other Nordic banks?
Without any doubt the worst bank of the large retail banks in Sweden. Currently in Nordic PE and have never seen them on a transaction. From what I've heard, they sometimes get to tag along on some real estate deals because they can provide financing. They typically don't lead processes though. Of the Nordic banks, SEB/Nordea are the clear leaders. After that you have Carnegie/Danske Bank. ABG and DNB are also decent I guess.
Thank you for your input. However, you did not mention Handelsbanken. How would you place them?
Posting a public source for ease of viewing.
This is just advisory credit - I anticipate the local banks will be stronger in capital markets (DCM & ECM).
Pan Nordics, the BBs dominate by value with SEB getting in the mix. Big 4 and independents naturally do more volume by covering MM.
In Sweden, the pan Nordic picture is reflected. Probably indicative of how the majority of Nordic IBD business is in the country.
In Norway, SEB and Barclays leading but only across a few high value deals. DNB Markets are really covering both volume and value - to be expected given home market.
Stats on Denmark and Finland are also available.
Source: Global & Regional League Tables 2021 - Mergermarket (google it, can’t link)
How are the Nordic market doing right now?
ECM/IPO market seem to be pretty much shut down, with very few M&A auctions? Nordic banks not yet cutting people as I understand it.
It’s extremely hard to fire people in Sweden, and if you do it’s restricted to either those with tryout-employments (new analysts) or last-in-first out principle and in that case, it’s very expensive. So from my understanding and experience, majority of the Nordic banks (excl. Carnegie, ABG) didn’t go on a hiring spree during 2020-2021 and therefore are more well fit for riding out the crisis.
Moreover, from my experience from two Nordic banks this fall, there are a lot of mandated transactions that are being worked on. Most are expected to close H1 2023 or even later however, so kinda dry at the moment
Would be interesting to hear more about Goldman firing people in Stockholm, especially as they are only 7-8 analysts/associates and 7-8 seniors.
From my understanding, the smaller players are doing pretty well as there is still a solid dealflow when it comes to smaller deals. My fund receives several inbounds a week from some of the smaller boutiques. When it comes to larger deals, the market is in a difficult place right now. With regards to ECM, IPOs are down heavily but companies still need to raise cash so ECM isn't dead by any means. I know that some banks overhired big during covid so most likely they will have to cut down or at least stop hiring. I don't have much insight into DCM I'm afraid.
What's the hiring scene like for Stockholm? I'm Swedish but did my secondary to university schooling in the UK and have another internship lined up at a BB in investment banking. Ideally would like to move back to Sweden at some point. Do banks (SEB/HB/Nordea etc) consider candidates from abroad or is it just like Lund/SSE/CBS
I’m just an intern so this is solely based on my experiences these past 6 months..
I’ve worked with 3 people with similar background to yours, and 2 people that were completely international (France and U.K.). All on analyst & associate level spread out across two banks. On MD level there were of course a much larger variety of nationalities and background
I'm Swedish and have conducted a few internships in IB/PE based in Stockholm. I'm studying at a European target. In my experience, you have an advantage if you're studying at a top-tier international institution. In investment banking in Stockholm, pretty much everyone attended SSE. CBS is also well represented and Lund/Uppsala is less common. With that said, when you've got hundreds of kids from SSE/CBS/Lund/Uppsala applying, you will have something unique if you studied abroad. Obviously, this will depend on what university you're studying at in the UK.
Cool thread! What is the comp for AN1 at the top banks (SEB, Nordea, ABG, Carnegie, Danske) in Stockholm?
Roughly SEK 50-55k per month (SEK 660k annually) in base + % of pension which varies between banks, also don’t have insight in these
Not sure about bonus. I do however know that DNB pays ~20-30x monthly salary on bonus, in which a high % is calculated towards your pension which is actually an awesome perk - only Nordic bank I think to do this.
So say TC of SEK ~1.5-2.8 million incl. pension
You're correct on the base comp. I am not sure about DNB, but it goes without saying that a 150-250% bonus is not the norm at Nordic investment banks... I have friends at multiple of these banks and during 2021 (one of the best years in a long time for investment banking) bonuses were about 100%. I would count on bonuses being 40-100% depending on your performance and the performance of the bank.
Am I right in saying you need to be fluent in the local language to work in the Nordics? I was considering doing my masters in SSE but I only speak English.
There were a few people who only spoke English at one of the banks I interned at and I know they had recruited another intern who only spoke English
That’s only one bank tho, no idea how others approach it
I would say yes. While materials are always in English, all communication with colleagues and clients will be in Nordic languages. Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are quite similar languages so you can speak Swedish to Norwegian and Danish clients and understand each other pretty well. Many Finnish people also speak Swedish. As such, many of the international BBs in Stockholm only require that you speak a Nordic language, doesn't necessarily need to be Swedish. I think that finding a job will be very difficult if you do not speak any Nordic language.
Another Nordic here, I'd pretty much echo what others have said in this thread. If you want to stay in the Nordics then do an internship at one in that geography. If, as you said, want to get good development and land a good paying job in IB I'd say doing an internship in the UK would give you a lot more exposure across global markets which you could translate back into the Nordics potentially. As another said as well, a lot of the cities in the Nordics are quite small and so can feel like a village in that you pretty much know everyone either directly or through a mutual connection. If that's what you're looking for then go for that really.
Personally, I moved to London for a couple yrs of work and absolutely hated all of it with the exception of the level of deal exposure I got to wider global markets. That in turn lead to me moving to the US about 5-6 yrs ago now. The pay is above and beyond anything in the UK and Nordics and the WLB is actually pretty nice, the weather is pretty similar to back home with the exception of getting more sunlight really.
NYC based?
I did NYC for a couple months but ended up really disliking it.
In the end I moved to Chicago and it's the best
What did you dislike in London? And how did you make the move to the US?
I didn't like the city, the people and the comp I had at my firm. The UK does present a lot of opportunity, but the compensation is so far behind with the CoL there, plus the country is weirdly stuck in tradition for a lot of things "because it's the way it's always been done" and it's hard to break the mould.
Getting into the US for work is hard -I'll say that first and foremost. Your best bet is to either study in the US and then get a job from there that'll sponsor you or alternatively you're looking at entering as an experienced hire with a lot to bring to the table that's directly going to be beneficial and relevant to the team in that location, you can't just be a generic hire.
I was in a similar position but I realised the above and rather than looking for sponsorship I went down the route of sponsoring myself as a sole trader setting up a business in the US. The process was super fast doing it this way and I lined up my consultancy contracts and retainers before I headed out there. I've been in Chicago now for going on 5-6 years and have loved every minute of it. It takes a lot of work but it is possible and it's not a one-size fits all kind of deal.
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Did you go to a target school in the Nordics? Im on my second year of studies at a non-target, also in Nordics and i’m just trying to understand if there is a chance of landing some high-finance entry-level job out of uni, I have a decent GPA and an BO internship done after the first year and I am thinking what to do next. I do not speak the local languages since I came to study from abroad, so thats another reason why I am looking for advice on how to proceed and hopefully get an internship or even a full-time offer after studies.
Anyone who has any updated info regarding potential layoffs among the Nordic offices?
Haven’t heard anything!
Although I know Goldman have hiring freeze in their Stockholm office
Is there a lot of difference in hours? (Nordic BB vs SEB/Carnegie/Nordea)
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