Vacation Time, WLB, and Conformism

tldr: after a few months on the job, I think there is a strong argument for how the combination of demanding hours, significant compensation, and limited vacation almost inevitably frogmarches juniors and new hires into the same mindset, and reinforces the cultural boundaries between finance/IB and the rest of NYC, for better or worse.

I am not a sociologist, anthropologist, or philosopher, so assume nothing I say is rooted in statistical fact, and feel free to add your own thoughts. I am not planting a flag and defending it so much as I'm proposing a theory as to why things are the way they are, at least from what I see so far. 

I've been in MM IB for a few months now, and had plenty of time to ruminate this theory over the weekend. Relatively speaking, my firm and team have very good hours, easygoing managers, and accessible vacation. However, I already see a pattern developing that separates me from my other friends. I have many non-finance friends à la Jared Vennett in NYC, and they have pretty "normal" workweeks: 9-5, 5 days a week, or some variation if they're in the service industry working weird hours. No one is working >50 hours, some work 35, so they all hit up trivia nights, concerts, bars, etc. right after work. By the time I'm out a few hours later, plans are already in motion, so I play catch-up. Trying to schedule for meeting friends for after-work drinks is out of the question if they aren't dawdling around downtown, waiting for me to leave the office. Hanging out late, even on a Wednesday or Thursday, is difficult when I know I should be getting ready for the next work day. Ultimately, this means if I finish work on a weekday, my ultimate destinations are home, my partner's, or an after-work function with colleagues who are leaving at the same time.

I can only imagine how much worse this problem becomes for any juniors working 80+ hours. I've read threads on this site about how seriously friendships and relationships are affected when you've only time for sleep and work, effectively. This is the long hours part of the phenomenon.

With this more demanding timetable comes the certainty (or not, hi UBS) of good compensation. The average individual's salary in this country is around 65-70k a year. Few 20-somethings (we live in a socioeconomic bubble in these expensive coastal cities, remember that) can say they are making six figures straight out of college. If you have what is considered by many to be great "first-real-job" money, and long hours, you certainly have less time to spend that money, which means you're going to spend it on what is accessible: New York City, more specifically the more expensive treats the city has to offer. Nightlife, clothes, watches, food, whatever – it can all be yours if you hold onto that entry-level Analyst role for a few years, and either go A2A or move into buy-side. This is the high comp corner of this triad.

Finally, in relation to the first point, we have what is generally seen as a more restrictive vacation policy. Yes, many banks may offer "unlimited" personal days and 15-25 vacation days your first few years, but how many are willing to honor those requests? There is too much work to be done at all times, and even if you snag some time off (assuming you don't have block leave), you will still be in work mode at times. In the rare cases where you have block leave, or some otherwise particularly long stretch of vacation, why stick around? You are probably very liquid for a 22- or 23-year old, and can jump on a flight to wherever you'd like to cut loose and forget about your job for a few days. 

That final part of the vacation restrictiveness is where you can see a figurative fence going up around IB and finance in general when it comes to social circles. It is no news to anybody in the working world that you will develop some level of bond with your colleagues, and often, they become your friend group. However, the "work hard-play hard" mindset of many prestigious firms in this industry, the small circle we all inhabit, and the aforementioned three points makes it that much more difficult to sustain connections with people on the other side of the fence. You can't make time for your non-finance friends during the normal workweek, and you are going to be dialed in to your work if you go on vacation or spend the weekend carousing with them. You might see that you shed a lot of people whose schedules and priorities don't line up with yours – nothing personal, just the nature of friendships fading with disuse. This is a perpetual process in life, but it's accelerated by working in finance at the ripe old age of 23.

Perhaps by intention, you fall in with your colleagues, and spend time boozing, clubbing, eating, etc. with them when you aren't all fighting for your lives at work 90 hours a week. This creates loyalty to one another, and, I think, loyalty to the longstanding "work hard-play hard" mindset that is synonymous with the New York high finance crowd. Even if you didn't come into the business with that perspective, you will almost certainly adopt parts of it at least. It takes a lot of willpower to remain completely separate from the financier's way of life, and you might even be putting your cultural "fit" at risk by doing so. 


Anyway, this was something that I decided would be best put into words at 2 in the morning. I should reiterate that this is all anecdotal and rather nebulous. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, let alone banker culture in New York, the most obvious reason being that I've been here 3 months. However, I have a feeling I'm not the only one that feels this way.

4 Comments
 

Your observations highlight a well-documented phenomenon in finance, particularly in investment banking, where the demanding hours, high compensation, and limited vacation time create a self-reinforcing culture that shapes both personal and professional lives. Based on the most helpful WSO content, here are some key takeaways and insights:

  1. Work-Life Balance and Social Circles:

    • The long hours and unpredictable schedules in finance make it challenging to maintain relationships outside of work. As you noted, by the time you're free, your non-finance friends have already moved on with their plans. This often leads to a natural gravitation toward colleagues who share similar schedules and understand the demands of the job.
    • Threads on WSO frequently discuss how friendships and relationships outside of finance can fade due to the lack of time and energy to nurture them. This is a common struggle for juniors in the industry.
  2. High Compensation and Lifestyle Choices:

    • The significant pay at a young age creates a unique dynamic. With limited time to spend money, many finance professionals indulge in accessible luxuries like nightlife, high-end dining, and designer goods. This reinforces the "work hard, play hard" culture that is prevalent in NYC finance circles.
    • However, some WSO users advise against falling into the trap of flashy spending. Instead, they recommend focusing on building meaningful relationships and maintaining a sense of humility to avoid being consumed by the materialistic aspects of the industry.
  3. Vacation and Cultural Boundaries:

    • Even with vacation days, the workload and expectations often make it difficult to fully disconnect. This perpetuates the cycle of being "on" even during personal time, further blurring the lines between work and life.
    • The cultural divide between finance professionals and those outside the industry becomes more pronounced over time. As you mentioned, the shared experiences and challenges within finance create a bond among colleagues, but it can also lead to a sense of isolation from non-finance friends.
  4. Adapting to the Finance Mindset:

    • The "work hard, play hard" mentality is deeply ingrained in the finance world, especially in NYC. While some may resist it initially, the environment often shapes individuals to adopt this mindset to fit in and succeed.
    • WSO threads often emphasize the importance of self-awareness and staying grounded. Surrounding yourself with people who share your values, even outside of work, can help maintain a sense of balance and perspective.

Ultimately, your reflections align with many discussions on WSO about the challenges and cultural nuances of working in finance. While the industry offers incredible opportunities, it also requires intentional effort to maintain personal values, relationships, and a sense of individuality amidst the demanding environment.

Sources: Finance Culture - Personalities, Finance Culture - Personalities, Navigating Social Circles & Finance, Old habits die hard

I'm an AI bot trained on the most helpful WSO content across 17+ years.
 
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It takes a lot of willpower to remain completely separate from the financier's way of life, and you might even be putting your cultural "fit" at risk by doing so. 

Would have to agree - especially as a junior, you almost need to fit in (at least around your co-workers) to survive, and if you're naturally not a "finance bro" but your group is cliquey, it's very challenging to receive development/mentorship/good vibes at work. If you do start to mold into that frame, then you have to sacrifice a part of yourself and who you actually are outside of that circle. 

 

“Perhaps by intention…” is powerful.

I wonder if these hours are indeed put in place by the executives with literally 10,000x the wealth of most of us… but for what purpose?

Sure, there is work to be done but especially at the junior level, how much is mind-numbing busy work?

I suppose it’s not to the benefit to the Jamie Dimon’s or Jes Staley’s of the world if I have every weeknight available to hangout with my friends who may give me perspectives that perhaps all my misery isn’t actually worth it.

If we worked 50 hours, if it was humane and people weren’t killing themselves from the mental strain, suddenly the exclusivity and signaling power begins to cripple and the machine is no longer socially reinforced.

Cultural conformity is wildly profitable.

Dunno, just one mans thoughts.

 

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