Recruiting hell
Summary of previous post:
I’m a recent PhD graduate in economics/business law from a high tier target school applying for jobs within ER/IB/HF in London. I graduated a few months ago. I have done several mistakes along the way and lost several opportunities due to being inexperienced about the job market and building relationships. I will give examples of my f ups!
I got my CV polished by a recently retired MD at a BB who I was introduced to. I mismanaged this relationship due to inexperience (I cringe sometimes thinking of my actions, the shift from academia to banking mannerisms took some practice). Come December and lots of rejections. One first round interview (ops role at one of the largest HFs) and another second round interview with a large MF manager, but messed both up. December was the time that I learned several lessons.
I networked my way into a monumental HF! And boy did it work! (think Millennium, Citadel, DE Shaw). I stopped applying for jobs and focused on several rounds of networking and interviews at this HF. Everyone was so friendly and I literally hit it off with every single person I spoke to there. Had multiple rounds of interviews, passed all, including with most senior person. I thought, wow, okay, it's mine. Come final interview with hiring manager, he absolutely hated my guts for no professional reason. This was all in January. I was shattered but then I decided to brush off this defeat as a victory in the right direction.
So I worked on myself and my interview skills. In February, after recovering from that hard blow, I decided enough was enough Cold emails, job applications, reaching out to my network, following up, you name it... I got exactly two referrals out of all this (one for BB and the other EB but both for IB this time) and maybe 1-2 informational phone calls a week. The majority of cold emails don't even get responses (my success rate is around 7%).
Market is brutal and recruitment literally feels like hell. I send on average 15 emails to both alum and non-alum a day and get around one response, not always a helpful one. Is there anything else I should be doing? If you have any advice please hmu in the comment section or DMs.
Very, very difficult to get into these career paths as a "recent graduate a few months ago". Especially as a PhD which doesn't have any utility in those career paths (maybe some HFs would appreciate that, but otherwise useless) - these jobs all have very set pathways they recruit from, and you're currently in one of the least likely positions.
Sounds like you are landing interviews which is good, but honestly think you just need to broaden your scope a bit. You can't afford to get to 6-12 months with no job, and only aiming at the most elite roles is not a likely scenario. This is a very tough hiring market so doubly so, firms are barely hiring right now especially for people with no experience. Look for corporate-type roles too - strategy, FP&A, etc. Maybe consulting too. But generally think you are aiming really high given your current situation.
PhD is getting both praise and criticism depending who i’m talking to and sometimes from one person at once. not ready to give up yet and i can afford waiting out a bit. thanks for your advice though, if it takes way longer than expected then i plan to keep in mind stuff like FP&A. i did land interviews at top firms and it was mostly my interview skills that caught up with me. i am better at interviewing now and if i get a couple of other similar interviews, ready to do things better/different.
Wow! It sounds like you've been through a challenging journey within the finance sector so far. Hiring is really tough at the moment, with the macroeconomic backdrop. You’re fighting an uphill battle.
Here are several pieces of advice based on your situation:
Continue Networking: While it may feel like you're not making progress, networking is crucial in the finance sector. Keep reaching out, not just via cold emails but also by attending industry events, webinars, and leveraging LinkedIn to connect with professionals. Personalize your approach based on shared interests, alumni connections, or specific aspects of their career that you admire. A 7% conversion between cold e-mail isn't great. This likely requires optimisation.
Feedback and Reflection: After each interview or networking interaction, reflect on what went well and what could have been improved. I used to record networking sessions discretely and review my performance. If possible, ask for feedback from your interviewers or contacts (though do so politely and without pressing too much). This can provide invaluable insights into how you can improve. At this stage, you could well be blind to your own shortcomings.
Skill Enhancement: Continuously improve your skills relevant to the roles you're applying for. This could include financial modeling, market analysis, or even soft skills. You’re applying quite broadly, so this could be time consuming!
Mentorship: Try to find a mentor in the field who can provide guidance, feedback, and potentially introduce you to their network. This could be through formal mentorship programs or more informal relationships developed through consistent, respectful, and genuine interactions.
Tailor Your Applications: Make sure each application and email is tailored to the company and role you're applying for. Highlight relevant experiences, skills, and how you can add value specifically to their team and projects. This is important right now, because there is no shortage of supply. You MUST stand out!
Practice Interviews: Keep refining your interview skills, particularly if you're getting to later stages. Consider mock interviews with friends or mentors in the industry, and prepare for a range of questions from technical to behavioural. At this point, you’re likely going to need tailored advice from somebody who knows what they’re looking for, friends won’t cut it.
Market and Industry Insights: Stay informed about the market and industry trends. Being able to discuss recent developments, challenges, and opportunities in the sectors you're interested in can be impressive in interviews and networking conversations.
Reflect on Fit and Preferences: Sometimes, rejections are about fit rather than qualifications. It looks like this was the case at the HF. Reflect on what types of company cultures, team dynamics, and work styles suit you best, as this is often what hiring managers are assessing. This can help you target your applications more effectively and find a role where you'll thrive.
Professional Help: If you haven't already, consider investing in professional services like career coaching or interview prep. They can offer tailored advice and strategies based on extensive experience.
Remember, while the market is tough and the process can be disheartening, each interaction and application is a step forward. Keep learning, adapting, and persevering. You and your application HAVE to be perfect in the current climate. It isn't about any one thing, you have to be the whole package. Don't give up!
If you want more tailored, specific feedback, please reach out to me via WSO’s mentorship platform. I’d be happy to help.
Hi! I saw your helpful post and wanted to ask for your advice for my situation, although I imagine a lot will be the same as what you said. For context, I'm a senior graduating this May, econ major at a target school, boutique ib internship experience this past summer where I did a bit of modeling such as setting up P&L models but no full-on DCF/comparables modeling experience. I'm currently recruiting for FT for ib or ge/pe (tbh, I don't want to explore consulting or AMs or whatnot and have received mixed opinions in netwroking calls about exploring other options. Not to mention I'll need to learn those industries and tailor my skills/stories all over).
I know my preparation for calls or interview can always be improved, and I feel I am taking small steps (very small, but it's there) each time to improve my elevator pitch or behaviorals. I don't really know my cold-email conversion, but I have avg 1-3 calls a week. I try to get to know who they are, what interests them, their experience, etc and then ask them for advice. But despite networking, I'm unsure if I'm really getting the most out of my conversations, which often end with "there's no space for us, keep on networking, and good luck." And everything comes to a hard stop.
I admit I'm talking to ppl at more known firms (I find it always hard finding smaller boutique firms), but how do I make the most out of these conversations so that it leads to something (maybe not an interview, but something more than a "continue what you're doing and good luck")? I know the answer is not straightforward, but I want to do better, whatever that means.
Are you only applying to top shops? With zero work experience, you’re really pressing for low % shots downfield.
I’m guessing you went out for DEscover - the people I know there all come from absolutely elite backgrounds and they look for weird stuff like spelling bee champions since that apparently is a common theme for geniuses. I’m talking elite undergrad to elite grad schools to top 1% placement.
The interviews are intentionally set up to give you a good feeling and then show you adversity, it’s great you’re getting interviews - but I think you’d be limiting yourself a lot by using that as a justification to only go out for the top shops. While it’s a challenging market, skilled labor markets are still extremely tight in certain fields so that talent is “trading at a premium” currently. Pending your area of expertise, maybe look to leverage that knowledge at consulting firms.
You don’t need to accept every offer, but you should start looking at t2/t3 shops. I think it’s rather extreme to miss on these and then start looking at fp&a if this is the type of work you want to do. Getting interviews is a good sign, but sometimes these firms “recruit” you for years until you’re a good fit.
Good tip and insight about interviews. Thank you.
What are some t2/t3 shop examples? Might consider consulting shortly down the road if this all doesn't pan out.
I wouldn't really consider management/strategy consulting unless you really want to do it. Are you really going to want to spend many hours perfecting cases, presenting back, frameworks, and so on. Consulting is, potentially a more fiercely contested market in the UK. There are fewer high-quality employers, the market is terrible because nobody is offering growth projects and you're no longer competing with econ/bus students, but liberal arts, STEM and so on.
You'd be a good candidate for economic consulting, of course.
Sorry this is unrelated, but would you mind telling me more about how informational calls work? Was recommended that these are really good to develop a better relationship to someone you reach out to, but in all honestly, I'm not sure on what sort of questions I should/can ask. Would really appreciate some clarity.
And good luck with the search!
I try to reach out to people via email or linkedin giving very very brief info about my background and politely asking for a short convo to ask about the type of jobs they do or about a specific role at the bank if there is one posted and i plan to apply to it. during the call, i talk to them for about 10-15 mins max asking questions about the firm, hiring, industry, their work, their experience, etc. sometimes they end up telling me they will refer me to the position and sometimes this is not discussed but at all times i never mention it directly or show that i expect it from them.
Which college did you attend to get your PhD?
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