Though many jobs in high finance are becoming more and more diverse, I am hearing that finance is still, at large, a field dominated by white men. This doesn't deter me from pursuing finance as a career, but I'm just interested if anyone has witnessed or experienced any discrimination from their coworkers or bosses.. Also, what do the demographics look like for various fields of finance? From other threads, Asians are apparently more common in S&T? Thanks.
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I've never understood breaking down the diversity component in companies to see if you fit in.
Just pursue what you are passionate about. This isn't the age of Rosa Parks.
agree...@ OP, don't self select yourself out of a field. have confidence in yourself and let the rest fall into place
There are plenty of Asians in finance (banking, S&T, PE, HF, etc). Stop worrying about the demographics. And it’s not like you can do anything about them anyway. What matters is this is a field that’s interesting to you and you want in, right? Focus on learning about the different fields within finance and figure out which one(s) interest you. Don’t backwards engineer into a particular field just because you think it’s more Asian-friendly. You want to be where you’re best suited and you’ll be most passionate about.
In terms of fitting in - that’s more of an individual thing. It’s more about your personality - and if it’s a fit with a particular group’s culture. And again, these are things that are out of your control (whether a place that’s right for you is the one that gives you an offer) - just focus on learning about the world, getting in first.
Plenty of male Asians in BBs in IB, S&T, etc and a decent number of of women entering as well. I saw a lot of Asian women at women's diversity programs for banking, probably more than white. There are less Asians on the senior side, but that's probably going to double in the next fifteen years given the new demographics in BB FT classes.
There are a lot of Indian MDs/partners even today.
That's true, but I figured OP was referring to East Asians as people generally specify South Asians/Indians if they are asking about them. There are definitely a good number of male Indian senior people surprisingly.
Hey man. This may be a really stupid question, but what does OP stand for? I know it refers to the guy who posted the thread, but what do the letters stand for? Sorry for the dumb ask
I also don't really get this. Finance is a meritocracy (outside of sales) My boss is persian, his boss is a white woman (her boss is the CEO). While 60% of my department are white males, guess what? 80% are CFA charterholders, and that is by far more significant to our hiring. Discrimination may be prevalent in low finance, but it certainly isn't in high finance.
About Asians (Originally Posted: 07/10/2008)
About Asians: I know there are a lot of stereotypes about us out there: We're good at math: do you find that there are a lot of Quant Jocks that also happen to be asian? We work super-hard- Do asians at the IBDs stay at the office longer or just work harder than other racial groups? We dont get promoted- So far, I haven't seen any asian managing directors... is it just racism? we all ivy-leauguhs-are a lot of asian bankers/traders/analysts you know from ivy league? just curious
http://www.palmercash.com/product.asp?3=74
nuff said
Have you seen the results of the poll on the left hand side? ;)
Anyways, I don't consider myself good at math. Proficient is more like it... Calc 1 and 2 are fine and dandy, but I really have no desire to go past that. Funny thing, most of the Asians I know are above average in math, but my friends that really excel at math are caucasian. Shrug.
I know there are a good number of Asian Managing directors. Actually, the CEO of Citi is Asian!
I've found that a lot of it is cultural. There are a lot of super ambitious Asians and Indians. I've found that many "Americanized" Asians/Indians are, well, pretty much "white." After a generation or two, Asians/Indians are just as much Americanized (some lazy, some hard working, some good at math, some bad) as any run-in-the-mill caucasian. My high school was probably 20 percent Asian and my best friend was an Asian girl. In all honesty, I can't stand non-westernized Asians/Indians in America--maybe the most annoying people on earth. However, some of the coolest people I have ever met have been fully Americanized Asians. I guess I just don't like the nerdy, uptight, un-fun culture that some of the far easterners bring.
LOL true and they dont get family guy jokes!!!!
there are plenty of asian managing directors. I read a list of the top 50 wall street traders, and there were 3 asians in the top 10 (they were all indian). I'm assuming the OP excludes indians from his definition of 'asian". The CEO of Citi is indian. i've been on the website of a few BBs and looked at profiles of employees, and found east asian (chinese, korean etc) MDs/VPs too
I think you will find that there are more high ranking Asians in banking than any other field imaginable. While I feel that a bit of racial discrimination is to be expected, Wall Street is as much of a meritocracy as you will find anywhere. If you can make money, you're in.
As far as Ivy Leaguers, the distribution seems about the same. Chinh Chu of Blackstone comes to mind as a representative of a non-Ivy League superstar.
of asian senior bankers that are BSDs. obivously banking is a newly open field (just started accepting non WASPs, when they made the biggest filter GPA) so now the lower levels are dominated with hard-working, greedy asian kids. i think in the next 10-20 years youll see most senior bankers are asian. that being said, they will definietly be the "americanized" asians that can sell and can relate to their clients the best. even in PE and top hedge funds will be asian dominated.
lol knuckle children....
my friend was brought up in China and he told me the other day that highschool students do get a summer holiday.... they get to have an extra day off per week LOL!!!
so asian... like mee
The CEO of Citi is Indian, not Asian
I'd argue Indians are much less socially awkward than Asians (apparently in those Indian dance groups they have some actual drinking)
^ ignorant comment. indians are asians.
dont indians count as asian? im indian myself, and as much as i hate it i always thought that i am "asian" since im from the asian continent
oh ya, and indians, at least in my culture (punjabi) we love to drink and dance so were not as awkward or nerdy as people think
Technically, people in the Middle East are Asian too. I think in general when people say "Asian" they mean people from China, Japan, Thailand, Korea, etc., but not India. It's not really an ignorant or not thing, it's just psychological/semantics.
Depends which side of the pond you're on.
In North America, "Asian" usually refers to folks of east Asian heritage (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Malay, Thai, etc.). Those from the Asian subcontinent are usually referred to as "South Asian" or simply "Indian" (by Indians themselves, if only to piss off everyone else on the subcontinent who isn't Indian). Arabs and Persians are simply referred to as "Middle Eastern", and Jewish are Jewish.
In the UK, "Asian" usually refers exclusively to South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalese, Sri Lankans, etc). East Asians aren't grouped together but referred by their specific cultural origin -- Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.
In lower class areas of North America, "Chinese" usually refers to folks of east Asian heritage. (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Malay, Thai, etc.)
Err...in the UK, "Asian" refers to anyone from the continent of Asia, not differentiated by culture or anything else, includes Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean/Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan etc.
I consider Indian and Asian seperate
Cmon, Indians are so much cooler than Asians, they can't be put in the same category. JK.
But really, they are different enough that if you lump them in the same category you are an idiot (I don't care what the technical definition is).
Agreed.
asians (south and east asians; indians and chinese) just have better family values across the board than your average white american family. asian (again, indians and east asians) parents, whether poor or rich, emphasize hard work and upward-mobility. they are often strict and discourage socializing because it detracts from studying, which is why so many turn out to be brainy but "socially awkward" as many of you rightfully noted.
on the other hand, lower-middle class and even middle class white American families tend to not push their kids nearly as much as asian families do. white american families tend to be content with B's and C's on report cards from an early age and allow a great deal of independence to their kids and the freedom of doing whatever they want with their lives, thinking it is a great achievement to go to any 4 year university at all. asian parents have a strict path for their kids. for instance, oftentimes indians feel that their children MUST become doctors, and they do everything they can to set them up on that path.
this does not apply to upper class white families. in the affluent midwest suburb i live in now (laugh all you want, east coast yuppies), there seems to be much more competition even at the elementary school level for my little brother/sister than there was for me growing up in my crappy, poor school district. upper class white american families obviously have better values and goals for their children, and strive to raise their kids right.
many of you may not agree with this, but i have lived in lower-middle class neighborhoods and have interacted with both low-income and affluent asians and whites. i know im making a lot of generalizations, im not saying all asian families are perfect, there are plenty of indian/asian kids who are fuck ups (like all the azns who get caught up with raves and ecstasy and turn into e-tards) but on average this is what i have noticed.
these are my observations, flame if you like.
Completely agree with this. Though the asians that push their kids tend to be the East Asians, Indians, and to a lesser extent, the Vietnamese. The Laos and Hmongs have different cultural values that don't place as much importance on wealth as they do on family and spirituality, and tend to not pressure their kids as much. That's why Hmongs and Laotians have the highest poverty rates in the U.S. among Asians. Cultural values have a lot to do with it.
With all due respect, Sir.
I would rather hang out with a middle class white kid who was content with getting B's who knows how to relax than a soul-less Asian who was brought up thinking that tests and the library are all that matters.
I caution you to not confuse scholarly aspirations with better family values... A good friend is infinitely more valuable in my mind than a smart, hard working acquaintance. (and that goes for all races, not just whitey & asians)
Some Asians work very hard and are great friends/fun to hang out with. Even among the uber nerdy ones, I've found that many of them are kind and good friends. Don't judge a book by its cover.
Just b/c someone pulls A's and gets great scores on tests does not mean they are "soul-less" and only think that the tests and the library matter. In fact, most of the people in banking (this being a predominantly banking forumn) are from top notch ivys who've gotten the A's and done well on tests throughout life. Now, you may call these folk "soul-less" who cant learn to relax, but why are you on this forum then?
I also ask you not to confuse being relaxed for being lazy or lacking ambition. Granted, someone who pulls B's isnt a failure and may have some other talents to make up for mediocre performance in school, but as long as we are generalizing and calling those that have scholarly ambitions soul-less...
since when is hard work a family value
i was in the middle of writing a long response proving that it can indeed be a family value, but all i will say is clearly you're not asian/indian. unless youre laotian. "Woman" was spot on when she said laotians (i think filipinos as well, to a lesser extent) are generally poor and underachieving. harsh, i know, but pretty much true.
however, hard work is also an american value. rugged individualism, protestant work ethic, all that crap. but im pretty sure that mostly applies to the old money folk in the new england area. why the east coast is so much better than the rest of the country is just beyond me. (im still pissed about yesterdays all star game... damn cubbies...)
"Don't judge a book by its cover."
I am Indian, so don't burn me with the racial crap. But there are so many books to choose from that the cover does matter a lot.
Errrr.......I wasn't referring to racial differences. And I wasn't referring anything you said either, so chill out. I was referring to the fact that someone serious about their studies can also be a good friend and not necessarily soul less. I have met a lot of "cool" kids that would disappear when a friend is in need too.
^^ And I wasn't targeting you for anything, all I was saying is that people should have a pleasant personality too because it is hard for everyone to try and be friends with every single "nerdy" person who keeps to himself to find out if he is cool on the inside. All I am saying is that there should be a good balance and I am sorry to say that here in the US i do not see that among my community although back in the old country its quite contrary.
I think you and I have different definitions of cool. To me, "cool" is a kind friend who is there for me, not just someone who ppl like being around at parties. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
I don't know if it was just me, but a lot of the asians I knew in HS were super type-A, and athletic, and had some personality. In fact, they scared me, they seemed to never sleep, or blink for that matter. They studied (super type A), played sports (super athletic) , and got really drunk (which is the "personality" part of the analogy). I still remember that more than sixty percent of the graduating class had an average of over 90 %. We beat a lot of gifted schools in a lot of math contests. But The parents of my classmates were all the same, lower-middle-class, and wanted their kids to do so well, and get into an Ivy-League school, but other than that, didn't care about their kids. Same with mine. But a lot of the Asians I knew in HS, got killer marks, got top-tier education, and got a super-high paying-job, but they're borderline alcoholics, because they're so unhappy. Some of them gave up they're passions, like the arts and charity work, to work at these high stress jobs. Some I knew committed suicide because they got rejected from Harvard or something. Im sure most of us would be happy to be Caucasian.
Suicide? That bad?
I heard about an Asian mom who started an organization to advocate for emotional stability after her daughter killed herself at NYU.
I didn't know it was that bad.
it is, the pressure to succeed, and get successful, cause obviously, not all Asians are super smarts, so the ones that aren't face more pressure to succeed and fulfill the "Asian version of the American dream".
I think in one school year..I think 2003-2004, NYU had 4 deaths. At least 2 were suicide if I remember correctly. One girl jumped off a building, and a photo of her leaping off was on the front page of some newspaper..
An Indian student that was an undergrad at Columbia took his life after failing to get into any med school...not all because of parents though.
Pressure to succeed is rarely a bad thing. Too many people are too damn lazy.
Plenty of Asians in front office as a whole, especially Indian’s. The one thing I have noticed is that most non-Indian Asians have a tough time making it to the senior ranks. Not really sure why that is, just something I’ve noticed.
You'll have no problems as an Asian man. We are not intimidated by you nor do we find your culture vile. In fact, many whites fetishize various Asian cultures. We marry your women a lot. So sorry about that. But they do make the best wives. And if we make an Asian friend, we can be sure his mother will cook us soup and they will let us take their leased Maserati on road trips.
To an extent, but one of the heads of Carlyle and senior people at both BX and KKR are Asian. Definitely changing
The PE shop that I work in was traditionally 'dominated by white men,' which I also do believe is generally true of the industry as a whole (though to a much lesser degree nowadays).
One day, this lack of diversity was brought to the top dogs' attention... and ironically their solution to this was to stuff asians into the deals team, which is perhaps the most conservative way of dealing with diversity. And I'm not talking about just one or two, but more like 5/6 of the last hires now (myself included). Keep in mind, this is a lean shop, and now we pretty much dominate the damn group after accounting for turnover (i think we're actually less diverse now!)
As far as 'discrimination' goes, I simply haven't seen any. all of our hires generally are made with an emphasis on 'cultural fit,' which they've stayed true to during their little yellow fever hiring spree. Granted, if you're one of those who are too PC or sensitive to off color jokes (of which we make many), you probably wouldn't last long, but that's prob true of most places in 'high' finance.
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