France Under Attack
Don’t know how many of you have heard about what’s going in France right now. A teacher was beheaded for showing pictures of the Prophet Muhammad in class, he was teaching a lesson on freedom of expression. In response to his murder, President Macron said that France wouldn’t back down and that it was people’s right to express themselves. This did not go over well with the Muslims, who have decided to boycott French goods, and basically boycott France for allowing the “blasphemers” to show pictures of Muhammad. Just read that an elderly lady was beheaded in a church by a man shouting allahu akbar which is Arabic for god is great. It’s beyond me how you can behead someone for drawing a picture. Absolutely disgusting that this going on and that many people actually celebrate it. A few days ago, I was watching an Imam speak about the teachers murder and he said that the young man who killed the teacher had secured a place in heaven, he had defended the prophet.
Religion of peace! Pay no heed to these rare occurrences, they're indicative of nothing.
Yeah bro, totally. It’s all love and peace here.
This is why you need to control immigration to your country. I’m sure this will get MS, but I’m an immigrant too and I know what kind of people are pushing themselves into the West alongside me. If you look at the demographics of France, there’s a huge amount of Africans and African-origin French people there. This stems from the French colonization of many African countries. Also, many North African migrants went over because of the geographical proximity. Now I’m not islamaphobic by any means (beautiful culture and it truly is a religion of peace), but if you take a bunch of Muslim people, put them into a new country and then not do anything about the fact that they’re not properly integrated into the culture, you’re basically asking for division within the nation. The way I see it, this is how that division culminates.
I agree. I’m an immigrant too, born in Pakistan but raised in the US. Entire neighborhoods belong to migrants in France, they make no attempt to assimilate. They left the oppressive regimes of their nations to live in a country like France, only to isolate themselves and celebrate the attacks on the people and the values of the country that took them in.
Islam is not a religion of peace. The extremists of a “religion of peace” would be extremely peaceful.
If you're from Pakistan, aren't you a Moslem as well?
shut the fuck up haha fucking brown boy talking shit, go get your beard lined up and pop some xannies
dang but my democrat overlords told me that mass migration is good?!?!
I don’t think all people who practice the Islamic faith are bad people that believe violence is justified in converting the world to their faith. However I also don’t find TRUE Islam (believe in sharia law) to be a faith that fundamentally believes in coexisting with other religions or cultures. In America I have Muslim friends that practice Islam but they do not believe in sharia law and it’s more of an evolved version of the faith it seems than a TRUE version of Islam that is practiced in the Middle East. My question is what % of Muslims are radicalized (believe in sharia law) and how many people does that equate to? Is it just a small group that has power and financing to keep sharia law in place and a small group of radicalized devout followers that believe in violence for the sake of their religion ? Back to my point of coexisting with other belief systems, extremely violent attacks like this have existed before the massive inflow of Islamic refugees into Europe so I don’t think it is the cause and effect as you are describing but I do think your point of not trying to help these communities get acclimated to French society has led to more frequent violence between Muslims and non believers.
Even followers of Sharia law aren't really the problem, it's people that can't coexist properly and don't realize that not everyone has to follow their religion. If you want to follow Sharia law with yourself and your family, then no one can or should stop you. The moment you try to push your religion on others, you can no longer coexist peacefully and that's when there's a problem.
This isn't a matter of cultural divide - these are outlier atrocities. Meaning that things this bad happen every now and then but it's being politized b/c it involves Muslims and Macron hates them. 99% of muslims think this is fucked - fuck the OP for falling for this bullshit
99% do not think this fucked up. I don’t know how much you know about Islam but insulting the prophet is a crime punishable by death. Again, not saying all Muslims are terrorists/radicals. I am saying that many Muslims I know and others around the world are not against what happened to that teacher. They fully support it.
Islam is explicitly libertine in which religion(s) "kufar" are allowed to have. I don't feel like digging through all the stuff but in one of their daily prayers they have to say "you have your Way and I have Mine--you will never worship how I worship, and I will never worship how you worship....[something something let's leave it at that]""
You say it 2x a day and still shariah-alarmists (and to be fair, muslim edgelords/federal agents in disguise) still think it's a supremacist religion?
Look up some of these mainstream religions, see what judaism and bhuddism say about other faiths. Is the Talmud awfully kind to Mary? What does Bhuddism and hinduism really say about women's rights?
It's all fake news, this Islam thing. You don't get the real story. Same, realistically, with Christians who are constantly framed as illiberal stodges who don't like even the color purple or who freak out over seeing an Asian on the street--this is bad-jacketing 2 entire fucking religions for political grift. Why would anyone think any differently about these peoples? You don't own the news stations
So I guess the conservative response would be to implement a Muslim ban because all Muslims are radicals. Oh wait, we tried this already.
Limiting immigration, having stricter laws and active attempts to assimilate immigrants are better solutions. Obviously not all Muslims are radicals, but a lot of them do support what happened in France. The punishment for disrespecting the prophet is death, there is no argument there. I am of the belief that anything can be criticized/made fun of and you shouldn’t be beheaded for it. The reason I left Islam was because of things like these. I don’t want to get into theology here but you have to admit, a religion of peace wouldn’t prescribe such horrible punishments for such petty “crimes.” It’s followers wouldn’t hail murders as heroes.
Nobody is speaking about conservatives, but it’s nice to let people know how you feel, buddy.
basic logical reasoning skills lacking again - conservatives BAD !
So glad the religion of peace is like the fucking mafia that hunts you down with violence for drawing a cartoon of its loser prophet or converting to another religion.
Imagine a country taking in millions of refugees, housing them and using the tax dollars of its own citizens to take care of them. Just for those citizens to be beheaded and their deaths celebrated by those refugees and others belonging to the “religion of peace”. Also can’t believe their hypocrisy! Where is the outrage for the Uygher Muslims in China? Why did no one burn a Xi Jinping effigies and the Chinese flag? Where are the calls for boycotts? Satire aimed at the prophet is worth killing over, but literal genocide of Muslims can be looked over. Thankfully found my way out of that religion. No one knows though, might get beheaded...
God damn this site never fails to produce college kids who has never been to China, knows no dog shit about what's happening on the ground there, yet makes comments like they are experts. Genocide? Give me a fucking break.
Now first of all, there are plenty of people burning Chinese flags because of this so called genocide. But listen my friend, go look up history of terrorist attacks in China, where they came from, which specific country that you all are familiar with that boarders Xinjiang, and try to understand what China is doing about it. After you do that, go to YouTube, look up some Uygher vloggers in Xinjiang, and see what people's lives are like now there. Then leave China alone and go about your business. These series of events that happened in France sadden me. It's a beautiful country and let's focus on fixing the problem there.
Why do you think that is?
big sam harris guy? thats a great real time episode
Relevant
;Based
I would like to clarify that the Quran actually says nothing about depicting the prophet, and killing an innocent person is an unforgivable sin. Point blank. The hadith (notes from Islamic scholars) which these people try to use as justification came yearrrrs after the prophet even lived, and just discourage the depiction of holy figures to stop people from worshipping them. Beheading someone for a cartoon is not part of Islam and, again, goes against what the actual holy book says. Look at 7th century Persian art- images of the prophet are hardly uncommon. The religious "scholars" agreeing with what this barbarian did are probably as Muslim as Judge Barrett, and are either extremely poorly versed in Islam or exploiting it for personal gain. This is a cultural, rather than religious, issue.
I definitely agree that people who share this twisted mindset should not be allowed to immigrate. It is unfair to the citizens of the host nation, and to all the normal Muslims who are now being associated with a terrorist who in no way accurately represents their religion. If you recall, a lot of Muslims were actually in support of Trump's "Muslim Ban" for this exact reason. Myself included. The unfortunate thing is there is a direct correlation between socioeconomic status and "radicalization". The disenfranchised and uneducated people in these countries are more likely to be radicalized (we can see a parallel with the Proud Boys). They are also more likely to come over on refugee status which complicates things. No one wants to be the bad guy turning away women and children fleeing a bombed village, especially when the destabilization in the middle east is largely due to Western powers.
I honestly think, as unpopular and crazy as this might sound, that immigrants should have to take a cultural compatibility test. No doubt most of them are lovely people who have joined our communities as doctors, volunteers, teachers, etc. so they would easily be able to distinguish themselves on such a test. Those who hold perverted values that are fundamentally incompatible with those of the host nation can be kept out.
It’s not so much about depicting the prophet, as it is about killing those who insult him. The example of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf comes to mind. He was a Jewish poet in Medina, who was killed by the order of the prophet. He wrote some insulting poems, and Muhammad decided to kill him. The people Muhammad sent were given permission to lie to him so they could take him out for a walk at night and kill him. A more recent example is a Christian man who was sentenced to death by a pakistani court for insulting the prophet.
The story to which you refer is from the hadith which, again, are not supposed to be taken as the holy text for Islam because you cannot trust the veracity of them. There are multiple versions of the story, ranging from the man being a poet to him conspiring to kill the prophet. You cannot equate this he-said-she-said with the actual Quran and the teachings of Islam. Weighting the word of man equally with the word of God is blasphemous, so the hadith (and even the actions of Muhammad) may never override the holy text which explicitly condemns such killings. What happened in Pakistan is also not in-line with the teachings of Islam, as previously explained. Again, this is the culture of the country being justified by contorting the religion (which members of every religion have done).
Many Muslims I know would fail that computability, they’re decent people but they are vehemently against apostasy and have strong limits on what can and can’t be said or expressed about their religion. They’ll actually fight people who insult Islam.
I understand that bits and pieces of Islamic belief system is incompatible with the 21st century, but how much of that is actually canon? As in how much of it is actually based on the Quran? Vs. How much of it is cultural?
For instance, in Christianity, the Crusades didn't really have any Biblical backing. But was more or less the result of a cultural understanding of the religion that people had. On the other hand, people used to justify slavery using (cherry-picked and completely out of context) passages from the Bible.
For what I know, there are considerable number of Muslims who recognize these problems within their own religion and are working towards reforming their religion - through re-introducing a more nuanced interpretation of the Quran (vs taking it literally).
Honestly, I don't know much about Islam but seems like it's not an impossibility that Islam could be reborn into a more tolerant religion.
There are people out there trying to bring Islam forward. As of right now, I don’t think it’s compatible with the west. People in my own community, who are otherwise good people, were glad that the teacher was killed. Most Muslims I know fully support the deaths of apostates, and the deaths of those who insult Islam or its prophet. Admittedly, I’m not knowledgeable enough to get into an actual theological discussion and come up with a whole new interpretation of the Quran. However, the belief that Muhammad was the most perfect human being is one that the vast majority of Muslims hold. So by that logic his version of Islam and his examples would be the “true” Islam. The Quran also begins with something like “this book is to not be questioned.” So how do you follow a new Islam without changing the fundamentals and is it still Islam? Again, can’t really answer that question yet.
Reading through the thread, I can imagine that we have grown up in different Muslim communities. I respect that your life experiences have lead you to one view, but I would caution you from suggesting that is the norm. I have family here, in the middle east, and the sub-continent who have never encountered people who would even attempt to justify the beheading or similar acts.
Also, every religion is capable of being "brought forward". At its time, Islam was actually the most progressive. You can look in any holy text and find verses that would be "incompatible" with modern times. If what you were suggesting were true, cities like Dubai, Istanbul, Doha etc. would not be what they are today. It is also important to keep in mind that a lot of these new "Sharia" laws are relatively recently instated and are used as political control tactics rather than for religious purposes, which disproportionately impact the poor and those outside of cities (---> radicalization of the most disenfranchised members of society).
I started smiling before I even opened this thread because I knew the comments would be a cesspool.
Whaddayaknow? Nothing’s changed on this site.
I'm not sure what your motivation for this post was OP?
idk much about Islam, but I have travelled to multiple muslim countries and have/had many muslim friends, colleagues, acquaintances and neighbours etc. ( I live in London)
I feel that 99.99999% of muslims are good people. I think their culture, art, architecture, cuisine is beautiful, the same as with other cultures. Muslim countries themselves have been subjected to literally the greatest number of terrorist attacks over the decades. Here are the stats. wikipedia dot org / wiki / List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks. eg Malala
I feel that these attacks are by brainwashed, dangerous individuals who have psychiatric and socio-economic issues and are led astray in cults. I therefore think it is unfair to call them muslim because it is not really a 'muslim' phenomenon.
There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and if even 50% of them harboured terrorist sympathies the earth would have fallen off its axis or combusted a long time ago or something.
You’re right that attacks like these have hurt muslim countries more than others. Just a few days ago there was a bombing in a school in Peshawar, Pakistan. It killed 8 children. Of course not all Muslims are radicals. I’m with you on those points. However, it’s the ideology itself I’m talking about, killing somebody because they insulted the prophet is a Muslim a phenomenon. You’re supposed to do it, a good Muslim must take a stand when he hears or sees Islam being insulted. I will point out, a trial must be given to the accused, if they are found guilty then they must be killed. A Christian man was sentenced to death in Pakistan for insulting the prophet. It’s things like that which I’m against and was my motivation for making this thread.
I have to admit I agree with the first point about taking a stand cos if anyone insulted my mother I definitely would take a stand. Of course Im never going to kill someone over it. Though many in the West would and one can read any daily newspaper to verify that.
2nd point kind of puts everything in context really & supports what I am saying about the insult of mum and taking retaliative action- we work on a trial basis in the west too. You cant take the law in your own hands. I suppose the difference is that there is no death penalty for offending someone. But from your first point it seems like individuals don't have the right to kill either?
So I do still differ with you on the point that it is a muslim phenomenon. We have our own system justice like this too, that has probably evolved to where it is now. Of course most people aren't going to behead some idiot who called their mum a slag, but there are a handful of schizos who would. We have rampant knife crime in the UK that is literally over trainers and phones. It is mental.
However, Im not a theologian and I don't have the kind of understanding you do about Islamic ideology so this is just my view based on what my experience has been, so it is prob really narrow.
Hey now that you've left Islam, if you really want to mentally torture yourself you could always become a Catholic. What are you like with guilt? lol jk
Beheading someone for insulting the prophet is against Islam. Killing an innocent person is a major sin. Only God can determine what is and is not sinful, and he did not make insulting the prophet a sin. Even if it was a sin, committing a sin is not an automatic death sentence. Most sins are not punished by death and the ones that are would be stuff like murder and rape. Furthermore, the Quran actually recommends even in these instances to forgive rather than punish by death. These are theologically based facts. The hadith (i.e. the word of man) cannot be taken as the word of God... it is literally blasphemous to do so. As a surprise to no one (except maybe OP), these "radicals" are actually the furthest thing from good Muslims. I am sorry that your community was clearly far on the spectrum, but try to take an objective and informed look at their stances. Odds are, they are a product of their culture and upbringing since, as I have just delineated, it goes against the holy text which is the basis of our religion.
In this thread you have liberals:
-blaming the victims (the French);
-saying that Conservatives would or did worse to Muslims;
-minimizing and covering up the mistreatment of Muslims by China;
Never, ever underestimate the dishonesty of liberals. They are allowed to genocide Muslims and pretend nothing happened, but if you complain about Islamic terrorism, you are a racist. 3 incompatible positions within the same frame.
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