We keep getting these "advise me on my personal relationship" posts on WSO so I thought I'd kick the hornet's nest and see what people are executing as mate-selection strategy, if any. Mostly in your 20s you're just looking to hook up, right? But we're all long-term view people. So what's the strategy and end goal?
Men especially need a wake-up call, because women are by the strategic ones in relationships. Most men either don't have a plan and criteria, or are socialy shamed for having standards. And men do need to be strategic, as they have the most to lose - by far. In the breaking of a marriage contract, it's the men who will get the raw deal. Most assets will be split 50-50, no matter who the primary breadwinner is, and women are awarded primary custody of kids 65% of the time.
Women's Objective
- Women have the biological clock which starts ticking double-time at 30, with a "shop is closed" at 40. They're looking to lock down a provider before their looks fade and their SMV declines in value with age.
- Looking for a guys that are either possessing resources, or on track to get those resources + have the stability to hold things together. Also looking for physical attractiveness, usually measured by height, etc. But career prospects or existing revenues trump.
Men's Objective
- Usually men in their 20s are just looking for hot and available. But they should be looking for their LT strategic fit.
- I'd posit when looking to start a family (and many men these days aren't, but that's an aside) men should have clear objectives, know how to vet women, and approach the problem tactically.
Some relevant reading:
- Tactical Guide to Women - Shawn Smith
- The Rational Male - Rollo Tomassi
Haven’t you ever heard men have two heads and can only use one at a time? Of course we should have standards and think long-term but try explaining that to a drunk 23 year old on a Saturday night
Any time I hear mate selection in these forums I think of the discovery channel lol
If you're a successful man you can have your cake and eat it too a bit, as in live a carefree dating life for most of 20s and still be in great dating shape into your 30s for marriage. Ill add that while there is truth to the 'men date younger' notion, the '45 year old man dating a 25 year old woman' is myth. And please, dont use DiCaprio or some billionaire as an example. There are, lets be honest, broken women who are in their 20s looking for a sugar daddy lifestyle that will hook up and be in relationships with older very well off men. In reality for 99% of the dating market men can typically date 7ish years their junior without it being weird. Beyond that and there are generation gaps, or women just not wanting an older guy with thinning hair and wrinkles even if he is a Harvard MBA banking VP whatever have you
For women they have a biological clock that starts ticking loudly as 30 approaches. You do the math made famous on Friends, where if a girl meets the love of her life tomorrow and they date for 2 years, get engaged for another, and then married for 1 more you are looking at best case 4 more years until they start trying for kids. So a 28 year old single woman wont even be trying for kids until she is 31-32 assuming she meets her future husband TOMORROW. That is difficult to work against. Smart people see around corners, and if you're a woman you want to make your husband decision when you dont lose the leverage of time. So typically want to be around 24-27 when you start dating seriously
This means if you are a guy wanting marriage, while you can start at any time you really need to be serious by the time you are in your early 30s. At that point you will still be able to attract the 'top' of the dating market (24-27 year old chicks). Same for those women, they will be able to get older more established men. If you wait longer, until late 30s or 40s, then you are going to be dating single women in their 30s or freshly divorced women. While there are many great women in that group, most will be single for a reason so it's not the best pond to fish out of
In summary, dating as a guy was pretty hard right out of college from 22-25. You are starting a new job, pretty clueless, maybe in a new city, and the women you are trying to date are seeing guys in late 20s who can offer more. But work on yourself and it gets better. If you are a woman life is basically a circus for you from 18-26. You can get into parties and social groups easily, make friends easily, etc. and by all means indulge yourself in the fun a bit. But if you want kids realize the music stops for us all and to start dating with intentionality at some point before you are forced to
If you dont want kids then honestly just do whatever you want
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If you don't mind sharing, how did you become a decamillionaire?
Yeah I set up a 40 year old guy friend with a 27 year old girl friend and the girl passed on a second date due to age. Even though he was about to sell his tech company and this girl was very open to her friends about wanting a relationship / being ready to settle down. Important for guys to realize this
Making a rational decision for your future relationship is of course intelligent, but I don’t think men should be going out of their way to “optimize their future” in terms of relationships. Let love happen. Women aren’t regional HVAC companies you need to exit at 3x or your LPs are gonna be mad. They’re a great part of life that you should just experience. And when you find the one you find the one. You don’t need to to quantify this aspect of life. A bit of a shallow narrative here imho.
Thank you for proving my point - which is that women have a clear plan, and men do not. Wonen have strategies in place. They are aware that their asset, thier physical beauty, has a clear expiration. Adn they have a mission they need to accomplish before then.
"Let love happen." Love does not exist. It's simply a chemical reaction casued by mutual attracction + proximity + time.
Lmao. “Love does not exist”. You must be a pleasure to be around man.
I have a deep visceral reaction in the negative to the whole idea of let love happen for the following reason. In my experience, love is literally just physical, desire, physical proximity, and time. And I will add as someone who has been married for almost 20 years and is significantly older than most people in this chat that love is essentially, a ploy that has been pushed onto men for the benefit of women. Women have lists of what they want in a man. They have a strategy that they are operating under. They want a man who is tall, good looking, and above all else, a High income, earner and solid provider. And they use the concept of “love “to trap a man and to have him except a woman in whatever condition she’s in, so long as she can provide this “love “. Men marry down all the time. Women never married down. And men are not allowed to have requirements for the women that they pick, because “love “.
“Oh sure she’s not that educated, and not that high income of an earner and a little bit of a plain Jane, but you should definitely do the right thing, be a man, and marry her because of love. “
I agree with "women aren't regional HVAC companies" lmao, and that women are supposed to compliment your life however, if you don't strategically vet the woman you commit to, she'll be the one fucking you. As with Earthwalker7, fuck love, this ain't Disney. I may be charming but by no means a prince. Men need to be make themselves more aware of what women's motives true motives are, and they absolutely need to do their research on the chick they're talking to.
Personally, I'd hire a personal investigator to learn some truth about whoever it is I'm seeing...so yeah I'd definitely consider that 'going out of my to optimize my future in terms of relationships'.
You'll likely have a hard time accumulating enough to be taken advantage of if you cannot figure out something is off about your significant other's intentions after multiple years of relationship, probably moving in together, etc., to be honest...
I don't get the HVAC / 3x comparison. But... ok.
As a male, I think I was most surprised by is how much easier it gets to date after ~23 or so. Basically all the hardcore shitheads become firmly established as shitheads and get filtered out. I had a bunch of boring dates, but nothing horrible after that age, and met quite a few interesting woman.
If you're in decent shape, dress ok, have an actual career, and are fun to be around, you can easily date a girl that is way more beautiful and smart than you think you can.
You don't need some crazy robust dating plan, but I do think it's good to have a list of what is important to you in a spouse. It makes it much easier. You should also have a plan to go on a minimum # of dates per month. I basically met my now wife and immediately knew from the first date...so get out there! :-)
I generally disagree. Go for love regardless.
Being gay makes things a bit different. I was a 19 year old virgin, but my looks let my body count go up into the low 200s quickly from there.
It's an oddly stunted life. That first kiss with your girlfriend you had at 10? Yeah I had it at 23 with a guy (my age) from cooper union who slept his way up and down the Hudson, and who I think is still persona non grata at Vassar.
I f---ed around for years until I realized that being nice was the hardest commodity to come by. Find somebody nice and it'll work out.
you should probably get tested brother...
I think the system stopped glitching and I can share my previous PM publicly now. Gay men are so concerned with disease that it's a thing. Here's the perfect NPR Story: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/06/1025553638/how-a-g… "you haven't lived until you told CDC researchers what a twink was."
Low 200's! Holy shit man. Body count for gay men is a different ball game.
I had a spreadsheet, because I'm that big of a nerd, it was at about 125 at the time, but the computer it was on died when I was 26. This was also pre-Grindr, which If I have to describe it to you, you don't want to know about it.
You also figure you're going out in NYC both nights every weekend, and you have a 50% hit rate, and it adds up quick.
I'm also being a little loose with the term, since I don't bottom, and somebody unexpectedly being forced to can lead to a giant mess. (I have a story about that from somebody visiting from out of the country--you don't want to hear it) so it's basically a count of "we ended up naked in bed together and did something"
It gets old, at this point I just want a guy who I can cook for and play video games with. Extra points if we can watch football and wrench on my sportscar together.
del
true, it's sad some men cannot guide themselves in relationships as successfully as they in other areas in life
Reminder to all those young men blowing through girls... your divorce risk increases for each girl who's not your wife you fuck... go look at the data yourself... you are not special for being a men it still screws up your life... we need to stop having a bro culture of go get that pussy as it hurts everyone including yourself!!!
Sorry bro but to maintain attraction in a relationship you need to know how women work as well as know that you dont need to be beholden to one, and for 90% of guys that will require sleeping with plenty (15+) of women.
I can agree with the first part but to say that needs to be learned by fucking 15+ is insanity all it requires is not basing your whole self worth off of fucking girls. Especially for guys in IB or tbh any solid career basing your worth of banging girls is stupid. Learn some basic phycology and get some advice from old men on how girls work and for not being be holden to one have a dam back bone.
What I have learnt is:
1. It’s truly the most important decision you make
2. Match for values first, everything else second
3. Age is a number that can be managed, but maturity is a fact that cannot
Honestly beyond that it’s more about who you want to be, as if you get it right this is the ultimate motivation for self-improvement (I.e. when confronted with a lack of self-discipline using the “I want to be the man my wife and children will respect, love and deserve”).
idk, my two cents anyhow
Hey, well written.
In summary, set your own standard to live by and act accordingly.
Similarly to cheating, but nobody is going to know about it. Well... YOU know about it, and this is what counts.
Good advice , and I'd add to develop values. Once you have your own values that are core to who you are then it makes filtering others in the dating process so easy. And by that I mean REAL values, not 'equality' or whatever you think you have because listening to NPR makes you feel self important.
The big things you have to have a strong opinion on and get a partner with similar values that you also SHOULD NOT compromise on:
- kids
- money, and approach to it
- religion, if you so care
- location and where you expect to live long term / willingness to move
- lifestyle. Tied to money, but not the same. Basically how high or low maintenance are you and the partner you want. If you think getting a new car every 5 year is ridiculous then you will be annoyed by your partners decisions even if you have the money, and vice versa
- health & fitness. This is a big one because being active is a huge value for me. This goes beyond simply 'fat' and 'not fat'
- are hobbies and interests at least compatible. Its unlikely you will find someone with the same interests that you have. But if you envision life going back country camping and she is someone who gets her nails done weekly it wont work without serious friction
This is really wise. I was going out with a girl for 6 months who was a TON of fun and better looking than what I previously thought was possible for me, but her values really did not align with mine, especially for the long term. Like she partied a little too hard, had a bit of a broken household, etc. Fun for the moment and it hurt when we broke it off, but I realize now it was for the best. I since went out with a girl who is deep in to medicine and who is very pretty as well though a bit boring in comparison, but that likely will align with my life goals a lot better
I don’t want kids though.
I just want one thing (you know what it is).
A MM HF job?
Yesss
WSO never fails to disappoint with these bullshit posts. Bruh....touch grass, get out and actually meet human beings. Then you won't make stupid fucking posts like this.
I'm Indian so maybe my context is different but I have had enormous trouble with females in general (not that I'm socially weird or ugly - in fact I've had been told the opposite) which I doubt me being Indian has much to do with:
Observations after 6 years of searching:
A. Looks are absolutely a false road: The chicks with looks aren't always the sensual wife sweet tender material - they lack the feminineness that I seek. Sensual, soft, sweet, ladylike.
So looks are hugely deceiving - the person in reality can do something so cringe and lame you instantly lose interest. Some of the most physically attractive girls have done things that made me go - ew wtf.
B. The more educated and money making they are - the more opinionated, unladylike, arrogant, masculine they are.
It's difficult to get attracted to a chick no matter how attractive she is if she behaves like she has a penis.
C. Physical attraction/Fuckability vs. Livability vs. Marryability trade-off
If you get all you're lucky, but most wont.
Some chicks are totally marryable but ugly af.
Some chicks are ugly af but nice and polite.
Some chicks are ugly, rude but high-income.
D. Is she a soul-mate ? Can you share 3 AM jokes ?
I am personally looking for my mother in my future wife. Someone sweet, thoughtful, caring, classy, lady-like, and a ride-or-die lady by my side who will be there through thick and thin.
I've made up my mind that the right partner or lack of is going to be 50% of the drama in your life at the least so yeah. Choose wisely.
RIP TO ALL MY MALE BROTHERS OUT THERE WHO HAD TO MARRY A FEMALE THAT DIDN'T EVER DO SHIET FOR THEM AND THEY SLOGGED IT OUT OVER A LAME CAREER PAY SALARY AND LIABILITIES WITH A WEAK CHICK TO COME BACK HOME TO FOR A WEAK FUCK.
Bruh come out of the closet
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