See ya, indoor dining
NY finally shut down indoor dining, couldn't help themselves. It has become comical where there are days that NY's case count surpasses FL. FL has no restrictions and greater population.
I've read that 200k+ service industry workers in NY will become unemployed. Hey bud, we MAY have saved you from getting COVID. Unfortunately, you are now unemployed...thank us later
Indoor Dining Will Shut Down in New York City Again - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
BELIEVE SCIENCE
It is SCIENCE! End of discussion stupid Trumpers!
2,923 people died yesterday. 3,080 died the day before.
As a reference, 2,977 died on 9/11 and in response we went to two different wars for two decades. Now, that many people die every single day and your response is a meme.
Pre-Covid, 8,000/day died. That's ALMOST the same under Covid, on average throughout the year.
...the numbers I gave were people who died just from COVID, not overall.
Right, I'm saying when you average throughout the entire year, the national mortality rate is up but it's not up THAT much because a disproportionate number of people have died who would likely have died this year anyway.
You have to have context. Without context, you can't make rational policy decisions. You end up making irrational policy decisions out of fear, such as shutting down schools and outdoor dining or setting midnight to 5 am curfews.
And that's fair. I agree that schools should be open and "curfews" are utterly pointless.
So we should be fine with a terrorist attack claiming thousands of lives every day as long the total number of deaths per day remains constant? That's the point your making.
You can make whatever rationalization you want, but COVID can and will be the cause of death for numerous people every day, and there are measures that can be taken to ameliorate that number. Why wouldn't we take them? Think of the difference in restrictions we accept in airline travel because of 9/11 - minor inconveniences that are even less certain to save lives, but we put up with it anyway because the alternative is rare but awful disasters. If people are unemployed as a result, pass relief bills that increase the social safety net. Raise taxes temporarily if necessary. Seems to be no shortage of money or no problem with a budget shortfall when it comes time to cut taxes on wealthy folks.
The cause of how people die is inextricable from the analysis of the death count. You have no data on who the people "who would have died anyway" are, so it's a moot point on its face, but even so, the fact that they're dying from this virus matters. We're all gonna die eventually, but I doubt you'd have the same attitude if someone told you your kids passed away from COVID, but since they were going to die at some point, we shouldn't take it too seriously.
Thanks for the useless stats. Now go find some numbers that prove indoor dining should be closed.
Here are some more relevant stats:
"On Friday, Mr. Cuomo said contact tracing data showed that 1.43 percent of 46,000 cases between September and November could be linked to restaurants and bars."
1.4% on that figure was ~460 people. With the infection fatality rate (notice I did not say case, if you do not know the difference then idk) is anywhere from .1% for those who are younger than 40 and 5% for those who are older than 80. I think that the IFR is ~1.5% at the moment. So of the POTENTIAL 460 people infected as a result of possibly eating at a restaurant MAYBE 4 people died? Do you realize how many leaps in logic you need to use to make an argument that this is dangerous?
Don't start talking about thousands when were possibly in the single digits using the very same numbers the governor is citing to take this action.
I honestly don't understand why people compare CoVid19 to 9/11 all the time. What's your point in the comparison?
You get what you vote for. Damn shame.
Saw this online somewhere recently...
"If the first shutdown worked so well, why do we need to do a second? If the first shutdown failed, why would we bother doing it again?"
That person clearly doesn’t understand science.
I could use the same logic. If the shutdown worked in China, South Korea, Singapore, why didn't it work in the US?
What's more telling is you believe those countries and their statistics. Like you really believe China's numbers?
In any case, the reason why it didn't and certainly will not work, is because Americans don't want the government telling them what to do. Majority of Americans hate the government. Stay six feet apart, wear a mask, stay inside, you can't indoor dine, wait now you can, now you can't again, curfews, limited capacity at stores with long lines, etc. like the people are fed up with the bullshit. Straight up. I don't know why you'd have to ask why it's not working in the US, it's pretty clear.
That's easy. China and Singapore actually enforced the shutdowns and people actually respected guidelines there (wearing masks, washing hands, more safety measures put into places).
Also S. Korea never shut down. The government never mandated nation wide shutdowns. People voluntarily didn't go to places. They only implemented temporary shutdowna at specific venues with Covid outbreaks
Worth highlighting for the scientific community here:
"On Friday, Mr. Cuomo said contact tracing data showed that 1.43 percent of 46,000 cases between September and November could be linked to restaurants and bars."
Is that real? ~460 cases? They should have at least pretended it was a big number.
This is just plain awful. In California right now. The state is trying to shut everything down despite governor Newsom being seen doing indoor dining with a group and no mask.
It's hard for people as stupid as us to understand the reasons behind this. I wish I was as intelligent as a guy like Andrew Cuomo, the pride of Albany Law School. Imagine going to Albany Law School as the son of a NYS governor? He had to have been pretty dense, you can tell when he is speaking. When he has conversations with reporters he always seems to misinterpret their questions and lash out.
3000+ people died yesterday
and may God rest their souls. this is not belittling the dead, I want to see lives saved as much as the next person. I just fail to see why it's logical to shut down something that the government is admitting to not be culpable in the recent spike in cases. riddle me that, maybe I'm missing something, but that's why I'm frustrated with government.
kinda like that poster said above, 1.43% of NYs cases between Sept-Nov were because of restaurants and bars. what's the other 98.57%? why is the 1.43% being blamed and shut down? it's just not logical, unless I'm missing something.
Let's take this a step further. 1.4% on that figure was ~460 people. With the infection fatality rate (notice I did not say case, if you do not know the difference do not respond to this comment) is anywhere from .1% for those who are younger than 40 and 5% for those who are older than 80. I think that the IFR is ~1.5% at the moment. So of the POTENTIAL 460 people infected as a result of possibly eating at a restaurant MAYBE 4 people died? Do you realize how many leaps in logic you need to use to make an argument that this is dangerous?
On the flipside, there are ~300k service industry workers who may lose their jobs in NY as a result of the shutdowns. Do you understand how significant that is? Do you not think it is a possibility that at least 4 of those people will die as a result of literally being impoverished in one of the most expensive cities in the world? Why can people not use a cost-benefit analysis with this? Ok, you win...shutting restaurants will MAYBE save 400 people from possibly contracting COVID, what is the cost of that?
Your response to the dead was a meme.
I get the frustration- hell I’m dying to eat in a restaurant tbh. Maybe it’s just me, but it’s just weird to see the nature of complaint (like OP’s).
Clearly it’s a tough situation, but it’s not hard to understand that indoor dining is dangerous - to diners and workers alike. Apparently adults that have tested positive fir COVID were twice as likely to have reported dining at a restaurant than those testing negative
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm
Ok, thanks for that helpful statistic. Now as a further step, a necessary step, please tie those deaths with indoor dining. If there is this much science behind it we should have SOME level of correlation after almost a year and millions of data points. Throwing out things like you did without anything else behind it is what is becoming aggravating.
Closing restaurants to indoor dining will not make a difference in that #. It will just destroy jobs.
Remember when Cuomo put infected COVID patients in nursing homes back in early spring? I hope the people have not forgotten that.
As for indoor dining, Bill deMarxist said before that indoor dining was essentially for rich people and was a luxury for them. Yeah let's just totally forget about the working class employees who quite honestly live paycheck to paycheck. Yeah no, that living paycheck to paycheck thing? That's a luxury, sorry folks.
It's quite clear the NY government does not give two shits about me, you, your grandparents, your blue-collar cousin, or anyone else. This has been the dumbest fucking ruse I've ever witnessed.
I have not forgotten - and he got an Emmy for this.
I'm very close to saying fuck it and let natural selection run its course.
Making the whole country suffer while n****s really be dying in the streets everyday b
Can you retards stop bringing up natural selection when you don’t even understand what the term means? It has to do with survival and propagation of genes via selective reproduction, not dwindling of older populations due to decreased fitness. Dumbasses
Floridans: Fuck Science, Imma do whatever the hell I want to do.
New Yorkers & Californians: We believe in ScIeNcE (read we're just power hungry and don't want to make any data-driven decisions. Also read Astrology is science).
The days where NY's case count is less than FL's is rich. It's even funnier considering how much smarter the latter think they are than the former.
They're both pretty stupid IMO. I think what we're seeing is just two sides of the same coin.
From what I know, most cases in the last couple months within the US are linked to private indoor gatherings and pockets of shitshows where COVID is literally everywhere you go.
I think shutdowns were justified in March since we didn't know anything back then. But we now know so much about where cases are coming from and how to minimize the risks.
Unfortunately, you have FL, NY, and CA completely ignoring all those new information. Only difference is that Floridans just don't give a fuck. While Californians and New Yorkers are so paranoid that they literally are doing everything wrong. Both shameful.
The WHO themselves have repeatedly CONDEMNED lockdowns, citing that it only makes the poor poorer.
I saw your comment and became pretty doubtful, so I just searched up the key words of your claim. And this showed up:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/10/13/who-warning-about-covi…
As you can see, Nabarro said, “We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus.” Note the word “primary” here. He did not say, “do not advocate lockdowns as a means of control of this virus.” Nabarro continued by saying, “The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.” Note the words “rather not do it” as opposed to “should not do it” or “will not do it.”
Nabarro went on to describe how “lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never, ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer.” He added, “Look what’s happened to smallholder farmers all over the world. Look what’s happening to poverty levels. It seems that we may well have a doubling of world poverty by next year. We may well have at least a doubling of child malnutrition.” So basically, Nabarro was pointing out the potentially serious negative consequences of lockdowns. That, of course, makes sense.
So, where exactly was the “reversal” of the WHO’s position? Did Nabarro actually “admit” something new? Not really. Again, pay attention to the words “primary” and “rather not do it.” Nabarro really never said that lockdowns should not be used at all and that everything should be opened now and kept open forever.
And this:
https://khn.org/news/fact-check-world-health-organization-did-not-chang…
We checked with Nabarro to find out if the clip accurately reflected the points he raised during a nearly 20-minute interview. He responded, by email: “My comments were taken totally out of context. The WHO position is consistent.”
That context Nabarro mentioned covered a range of topics, such as the estimate that about 90% of the world’s population is still vulnerable to COVID-19, that lockdowns are only an effective pandemic response in extreme circumstances and what Nabarro means when he talks about finding the “middle path.”
One aspect that does not get talked a lot about is how severe the effects are from COVID. For some people, the effects also go on for months.
very notable, and something we should continue to pay attention to as we learn more about this disease. however, in keeping with the topic of this thread, does that fact mean that indoor dining should be shut down?
I am not a medical expert and I know that shutting down restaurants is terrible for business.. In my town, we have distanced dining.
Dude why do you always have the most useless fucking comments on this site? This is about NYC indoor dining.
It's incredible. Some of the comments here are so far off base. They're akin to saying what the weather is outside or something.
Honestly, why do you even need indoor dining? Are you homeless? Can't you just eat at home? If you can't cook, you can order food delivery and they'll bring you your food to your table, and you can eat at home. Why do you need to eat while surrounded by strangers?
1. change of scenery (cabin fever is real)
2. dishes that are best eaten right away/dishes where presentation counts (I don't want beef tartar sitting in the back of some greasy dude's elantra)
3. watching sports that you can't get at home (NFL games in particular)
4. no cleanup
5. none of the home distractions so conversations are much better in my opinion (so long as you keep smartphones away)
same reason people do most things, the experience. why would I travel hundreds of miles away spending thousands to see a sporting event in person when I could just watch it on TV where I get better views? experience. and so it is with dining. it's the experience.
I see your points, but I'd counter with:
1. you can just take a walk on a fresh air instead
2. maybe, I just don't care about this
3. I thought you can watch anything at home, moreover you can actually choose the game/show yourself
4. dishwasher
5. loud noise of people talking around you. plus if you wanna talk about something intimate/personal, better be not surrounded by strangers. plus I bet the phone usage at restaurants is higher than during the home dinner
6. you have to wait for your order, then for your waiter to ask the bill, then for your bill, then you need to tip
About sports, I actually don't see the point as well, except for really big events. I love live music though, because it's live and not processed through your phone/laptop.
Good points though.
You sound like a broke boi who can't afford to eat out
Americans are crushing this virus !!! Yeah !
I think this thread just shows why the US is still suffering from the pandemic. People want so-called freedom at no cost and just believe in what they want to believe in. It's a disgrace to the now almost 300k dead from this pandemic.
Is it at all an affront to the people who are unemployed as a result of lockdowns? I don't understand why people aren't seeing the health consequences from that side of the coin. Unemployment, especially long term, leads to significantly increased chances of early death. These policies in NY are putting people out of work by the hundreds of thousands. Thinking that we can just close everything and anyone who feels differently is a child is so far off base. There are consequences to these closures, why is it so hard to see?
You can keep saying that until one of your grandparents die from Covid and it really hits you. I don't know, I'd rather be unemployed than seeing my parents or anyone's parents for that matter die, but I guess everyone is different.
These half ass lockdowns will never work in the US because of both the people and the government:
People: In Asia, most people VOLUNTARILY locked themselves down because 1). they were scared of the virus. 2). they are willing to sacrifice a little bit of freedom (which they don't care about that much in the first place) for the greater good of the society. 3). they understand that better a little loss than a long sorrow.
Americans, on the other hand, not only are never scared of the virus, but also have a different mindset that individual rights are above that of the collective society (rightfully so sometimes but not always).
Government: The US government was never gonna enforce a draconian lockdown. They are not willing to, and also not able to.
Timing: It's already too late now.
TBH, at this point, we know that people won't change, the government won't change. I would rather we open up the country, and advice those at higher risks (i.e., old, fat, etc.) to take more precautions. The rest of the country should go back to normal. Otherwise you are really having the worst of both worlds: devastate the economy while not helping with the cases at all.
Preach
This whole city is going to be fucked for a decade or more.
I genuinely believe it. Are you thinking of getting out at all? I’m not here now and considering making it more permanent. After hearing what the gov said re raising taxes - I don’t want to be involved.
I’m sort of considering it. I’m still relatively young and all of my friends are in NYC, but I’m fortunate enough to have a flexible boss and enough squirreled away to afford a decent beach condo in South Florida so I could maybe do like 55% of the year in FL and 45% in NYC and get the best of both worlds. Right now, that idea seems pretty complicated and a lot to manage, but with the insane taxes and deteriorating quality of life, it’s looking increasingly worth it. So many firms are moving at least some part of their operations to Florida (mine included) and if taxes do increase, I fear a death spiral for the city.
So much for being the party of science”
I definitely see the need for reasonable precautions and consider myself pretty middle of the pack in terms of my opinion on restrictions, but it’s pretty funny to see how many people who previously lambasted others for comparing COVID to the flu are now comparing it to 9/11...
We can all agree it’s definitely the 25% capacity and spaced out tables causing a surge in cases.
Science, folks, science.
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