Why do women go into finance?

And hold the MS- this isn’t an autistic devils advocate kind of post. Instead, I’m literally coming from a place of legitimate empathy. This is also more of a rhetorical question, to point to the industry’s faults, not women. Full disclosure that I am a dude 


I’ve been thinking really deeply about the JEF allegations. A bunch of my college buddies and female friends are at the firm. I found myself in  a loophole online, on the experiences of being in Wall Street as a woman. Honestly, I used to think the whole disparity in experiences to be somewhat overstated (key: used to) but of course came to realize that gender issues persist in finance. However, reading of these woman’s anecdotes tonight and in lieu of the recent JEF situation makes me….pessimistic? Pessimistic in the way that I feel that if I were born as a female, being in finance would be simply not be worth it to me. Or at least, a losing game.


I’m emphasizing that this isn’t a condescending post at all. Not saying women should just get up and quit. But my perspective pertaining to high finance is that it is already a cruel & backwards job (see recent quitting posts), filled with ill-stable minded people (see recent post on psychos on the job)… while other industries/occupations have not resisted change, Wall Street remains antagonistic towards deviation of what made it infamous back in the day— with FaceTime, hierarchy & subordination, etc. It is also an industry where self serving  behavior is generally rewarded (if done with finesse or if having leverage). Everyone in this business understands that having power— whether actual say-so or  social or even just credibility, is highly, highly cherished 


Much of this pessimism regarding women & baking come from the knowledge that this is baseline. Since this is baseline— to what degree is it plausible to expect a workplace, where these characteristics thrive, to not aspire to exercise the full extent of their power to subordinate anyone who is already historically disadvantaged from them? Or anyone who is  already one of few and is an easy target? I’m banking, it’s always ironed in that you should not stick out and tread water- I trust the rationale is so nothing can be used against you in this business. But when you are an entirely different sex… how? 

In my loophole I read a post where some guy asked if gender inequality is actually a thing in banking, and was shocked to see the number of guys who admitted they never really thought to consider the disparate experience in reply to the accounts by female posters — I am literally one of those dudes. Again, prior to the JEF situation coming at head, I never really stopped to consider how different the experience might be. It’s in part this ignorance amongst well assuming people (I do think I’m a good, well intentioned guy) I think that makes it even that much more unsustainable. We struggle to make it day by day as is and fight against competing odds as is. With an extra chip on the shoulder, it make me wonder to what extent it is worth it. 
 

I think the biggest root of pessimism comes from the fact that….it seems to not get better, but rather worse with seniority/advancement. Full disclosure that I pretty much hate my job but I do see a path to advancement where I am no longer a subordinate analyst and am to greener pastures, in terms of treatment and how I am perceived. As a woman or minority (or if you’re both….geez) you’ll always have that perception and someone, same seniority or not, will leverage it to attempt to devalue you. Again, it just seems like a losing game. Its a bit depressing, because nothing changes - no press release, no diversity hiring, no publicity, etc will be material enough to warrant actual change to this well oiled industry. My VP told me that in his mid-level stage of his career, his analyst class of 1/3 women had entirely left the finance industry. To be clear, he made the reference to the point of “they couldn’t handle the hours/they probably all went to have babies or something/diversity hiring never works because they don’t retain anyway.” Even from senior female finance perspectives, there are stories of them not being taken seriously, neglected, harassed, shut down. Fighting a continuous battle and suffering in silence - at what cost? Having to form a steel cold defense with no detectable weakness… at what cost? There’s diversity programs everywhere begging for women and minorities, and I believe because said crowd simply realize that fighting another, misunderstood and be-littled (I imagine also lonely) battle on top of the prevailing one to make it to another day in this job, is simply not worth it.

Honestly, much of this wall post is from me thinking about my little sister going through HS right now. Of course, if she wanted to go into finance I’d support her without a doubt- but I would be incredibly concerned for her. I’m pretty staunch that this is not a place for women to thrive at their optimal potential, and likely will always have to face that limiting factor.


For those who do last in this industry as women, I undoubtably salute you. The pains are plenty as is- In the same breath, I’m bewildered. 

**Edit: happy to get into dialogue, but looking for female perspectives primarily 

 
teddybear2

Most women in IB only see it as a short term job. They don't want to be MD/Partner for the same reason you don't want to be a Victoria's Secret model.

 But the presumption is that most would stay within high finance eg exit to PE/HF/etc where it’s the same story- and you see even less women there. Unless they’re going in for short bit knowing they want to exit into an entirely different industry or into another realm of finance, doesn’t seem to look up

 
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Maybe my experience is not the norm but I've been at 4 institutions so far and each was the absolute picture of egalitarian. We even stopped sports outings so women wouldn't feel it was unfair. I strongly think if these allegations are true (and I have heard from some ppl that they're not but who knows), this is by far the exception. 

 

Think the point is that the sociopathic traits that attract a certain type of man to finance isn’t gender exclusive. Women have only recently had the choice to choose a career that maximized income, to choose a career that they would have to eat absolute shit if it gets them the rubber stamp to get the next job etc. I think there are a fraction of women that want a lucrative career with the same fervor as a man would and that’s their prerogative. There is also the benefit of time - as terrible as the Jeffries anecdotes are, imagine being one of the few women on wall street in the 1980s at any bank. We hear about the sensationalist worst experiences first but the finance industry is objectively more welcoming of women today than it was 30 years ago. So there’s that thing of “well if she got through it back then I can get through this now” as well…just my 2 cents

 

Think the point is that the sociopathic traits that attract a certain type of man to finance isn't gender exclusive.
 

Agree 

Women have only recently had the choice to choose a career that maximized income, to choose a career that they would have to eat absolute shit if it gets them the rubber stamp to get the next job etc. I think there are a fraction of women that want a lucrative career with the same fervor as a man would and that's their prerogative.

I feel this is somewhat contradictory. You acknowledge they only recently gained the ability to enter into this business as a choice. Wouldn’t you say the lower representation is tied more closely to the fact that it’s generally due to industry intolerance, given the fact that opportunity to even be “let in” as a bare minimum is still new?

There is also the benefit of time - as terrible as the Jeffries anecdotes are, imagine being one of the few women on wall street in the 1980s at any bank. We hear about the sensationalist worst experiences first but the finance industry is objectively more welcoming of women today than it was 30 years ago. So there's that thing of "well if she got through it back then I can get through this now" as well…just my 2 cents

Cross referencing the past to today serves to do nothing but point to the fact that these things keep happening and are still tolerated. The way in which the firm is handling the situation is really disappointing. It’s clear whose being protected here, just as it was customary in the 80s
 

More broadly, the purpose of this post was to gain female perspectives. Happy to continue the dialogue, but main purpose was for this

 

Medicine, big law, top consulting - all used to be fully male dominated (and still is to some extent). But it changed over time and lot of it started with hiring and retaining at earlier stage. Banks are going in that direction - I personally have seen a significant shift in mix vs 10 years ago. Most aren’t less qualified (arguably girls are better overall, you just don’t see as many prepping for finance since high school. They want law / med). It’ll continue to change over time and for the better. 

 

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