In a recent post, someone commented that WSO seems to have a dispraportionate amount of Christian users, especially among some of the older users like myself. It got me thinking and here is my theory.
Why does anyone offer advice to younger generations or mentor as many do on this site?
I think that it's twofold. One half is willing the good of another person and the other is self-interested. People don't often talk about the latter but let's be honest, you personally feel good about giving advice and mentoring. It's a little self-indulgent sometimes to talk about your experience and share it with younger kids. However, I think this sort of personal enjoyment and fulfillment is short-lived. And yet we do see it all the time on WSO. Some MD or PM will do an amazing AMA. No doubt, it will be a great and wonderful read, but then they move on. They said their bit, enjoyed it, and went on with their life.
In my opinion, the longer term users and mentors are often those that really want to help users. They will the good of the other. And at first, that good is simply helping someone who was in your shoes break into banking. You see a young grad who wants it just as bad as you did and you almost feel obligated to reach a hand down and lift up your former self in new form.
However, that definition of the good is very shallow. As someone who is an older user, I have already spent a lot of late nights in banking and finance. And during those late nights, my mind would wander and question and ask what am I doing here and why? Then, my mind would wrestle between wanting a simple more peaceful lifestyle, owning a rolex, and spirituality. Somewhere in the struggle, I came out a much more thoughtful, peaceful, and fulfilled person, largely thanks to growing in my faith. It is not the success that I originally wanted in banking, but it is nonetheless, the success that I found (along with some of the former as well).
If you have found peace like this, you want to share it with others. In addition, you realize that there is a bigger picture to career advice beyond just landing your first IB role. In fact, if I help someone break into the business, but they just spend their money on fast cars and mansions and turn into the worst sort of MD out there, have I helped at all? That's not how I want to help someone. If you truly will the good of the other, you want them to transcend being the short-sighted person which you also were and become someone made for a purpose beyond simple materialistic success.
Which brings me back to "why so many Christians among the older users". Well, can't atheists will the good of others too? Sure, they can, but atheism itself does not seem to have much to offer in regards to the good life. On the internet, in particular, atheism seems to be more about thinking yourself smart and witty and putting others down rather than offering good life advice to anyone. Rarely do atheists tell you how much better atheism has made their life or how much it will improve yours.
On the other hand, Christians have a lot to say about finding love, peace, meaning, and fulfillment. Furthermore, they even have an obligation to tell you about it. So when you're talking about a website like WSO which offers career and life advice, it will almost inescapably attracts a disproportionate amount of people who care about about career advice and deeper life advice. Just ask yourself how many posts you've seen about analysts unable to find meaning even after getting their dream jobs. And again, atheists can can also offer up good life advice, but if they don't, the empty darkness at the end of it all will not care one bit if they decide to just order some Chinese food and Netflix instead.
TLDR: In a sense, we all talk about breaking into banking on here, then exit-ops, and then there are some of us who talk about the ultimate exit-op. At first, religion and deeper meaning seems unrelated to the first two items, but, in fact, it might be just what you were looking for when you were breaking into your first career role but you did not even know then. This was certainy true for me, and I'm sure that it's true for others trying to fill an empty space in their hearts with success, ambition and all the things of this world.
P.S. Would like to thank Patrick for being indirectly supportive of religious discussions on WSO and recognizing the important intersection between career, life, and world outlook. Totally understand that religion is not part of the terms of service but appreciate WSO letting us exist next to the Rolex / first analyst car discussions.
Lmao bro cuz WSO is US based and Christianity is the largest religion in the US. Non-US WSO users are also English-speaking, and Christianity is also the largest religion in the English-speaking world. Just stats
The point of the original comment that I'm referencing was that banking is NYC-focused which isn't exactly the Bible belt. Further, the younger Gen Z and Millenial college educated crowd is not exactly jumping up and down for religion. While I agree that statistics nationwide are on the side of Christians, I think that WSO has a disproportionate amount of outspoken ones, especially for the banking sector given these demographic factors.
Maybe, a generalization, but this is not an industry known for appreciating spiritual thoughts and seeking deeper meaning in life, yet we have a lot of users that are on that path. Most people just say "Lmao bro" and blow off that sort of thing.
I think some folks are indifferent to faith/religion, but I’ve met many individuals who are quite faithful. An MD I respect is a huge donor to a charity I also support and we’ve bumped into each other at different galas.
In my experience, faith and religion isn’t a topic that comes up unless you open the door for the conversation.
Lmao bro fair the industry as a massive generalization probs doesn't appreciate spiritual thoughts, but lots of finance guys love to think about their lives and seek some meaning. The avg finance bro thinks more than the avg person i think.
For sure. And also if you look at the statistical trends, more and more Americans especially the young uns are non-religious or even Satanic. There's the finding that if you EXTRAPOLATE the trend, Christians will be a minority in 2060. People just like to be more evidence-based these days, and that's not a bad thing
Interesting nevertheless honestly. Whether it's good or bad (decline of Christians and religion) is debatable and has no answer. And yea, the question of why WSO has quite some Christians is interesting lol, maybe some selection bias tho
I think for myself, I had a prodigal son moment. I so to speak “made it” and had an epiphany like, “is this all there is? Money, title, and serving the MD?”
I found a new job and booked a trip to Rome shortly there after and it changed my outlook on life.
I now value life balance. I use Sunday as a true day of rest and avoid all of the errands/chores I can. If I can’t get my work done in 6 of the 7 days, working an extra day won’t be of much help.
Awesome story. Would love to hear what you did on that trip.
I think that sometimes IB can get you to spiritual thinking quicker than other ways. When I was doing those 100 hour weeks, I had a lot of time to think. I wonder if I would have done the same working 40 hours. Also, IB is the pinnacle finance/business. So, when you climb that mountain and reach the peak and look around to see nothing, you realize that there is no magic wand or dollar amount to fulfillment. If you worked a regular job, you might keep telling yourself that x amount of money or y job would really be what gives you fulfillment. And since you never reach it, you never find out the truth.
I have attended a few WSO events in the past and have also mentored more junior users on here. I would say it depends on the individual situation.
1) The finance industry, just like many other traditional management areas, are a haven for traditional people. Traditional people tend to have more of an affiliation towards their faith. The US based WSO users I have met or connected with seem overwhelmingly Christian.
2) Younger users I have met seem more agnostic, less interested in faith (Gen Z often).
3) International students and users are often from Asia and therefore not Christians.
Strangely, I have never met a Jewish WSO user at a meet or via PM or elsewhere.
What got me thinking about the numerous atheist activists out there is - what's the point? Like, fr?
Christian preachers/ activists exist to spread the gospel. To spread the good news.
Atheist activists exist for --- what? Spread what news?
My thoughts are - yea bro it's cool that you collected your own beliefs and decided that there's no God. That's calm! Completely! Good for you.
But what do you hope to achieve from pressing that world-view on others, and taking smtg good from some people who enjoy having a relationship with God?
This atheist activist, https://www.youtube.com/c/geneticallymodifiedskeptic, answers this question by saying that thru his activism, he hopes to promote better, more informed rhetoric within the theist vs atheist debate. Which is fair.
So i guess, in regards to what you were thinking about what atheism has to offer in regards to the good life - they offer things such as:
Atheism has certainly helped some atheists improve their lives, through those aspects. And they can help others improve their lives, by encouraging them to think more deeply about things. Christians find meaning in the spiritual world; Atheists find meaning in the earthly world. Which is, if you think about it, an even more grounded way to live life - you live your life with the life you have right now, instead of some afterlife.
Totally disagree on this. Most atheists I know are very "rational and evidence-based" on religion but get them talking on any other topic: science, politics, economics, they become very irrational very quickly. Atheism is not a belief in rational thinking. It is just a disbelief in God. I know plenty of atheists who believe in all kinds of irrational things and who do not seek answers.
Absolutely correct. So I should have rephrased what I said. I was more referring to a certain group of atheists - fundamentalist atheists/ skeptics.
And what I said was just suggestions to counter your observation that atheism itself does not seem to have much to offer in regards to the good life. My suggestions are things that atheism can certainly offer to people, and what fundamentalist atheists are already doing and preaching. Many of these people were even former believers, but read the Bible cover to cover and decided for themselves that it is not the inspired word of God and many theist beliefs can be countered with perfectly logical and rational arguments.
The Reverse Kingdom poses an existential threat to the Kingdom of Self. That’s true of anyone, Christians alike, but people who believe Jesus’s teachings, life, death and resurrection can take comfort in the hard work of sanctification. To the atheist though, a militant response is almost rational because they’re putting their trust in logic and science and if that base is shaken then what do they have to stand on?
But that said, the wounds of the church cut really deep. I’ve seen so many people walk away (and many come back) because of broken people communicating something other than the Gospel of Grace. The rise of the church in the US has led to a lot of good, and a lot of very hurt people. Look no further than the Catholic Church, Mars Hill, Rob Bell, Hillsong NYC, etc. All scandals and lots of people who won’t come back over it. It’s really sad but as Believers, we can’t put our hope in an institution or broken person at the top - it has to be in Scripture and in Christ alone.
Alright, rant over.
With all due respect, my question for you then is - if you are truly an atheist, then how can you make any moral judgement about what is good or bad? Or defining what finding fulfillment is? What meaning is there to find if under one's worldview, we're just clumps of stardust bumping into other clumps of stardust? How do you rationalize the existence of evil as an atheist? Do you think it's evil for a tiger to hunt a zebra? Then why would you think it's evil for one human to murder another human if technically under a true evolutionary worldview that murder is just 'survival of the fittest' of one human over another?
Under a theistic presupposition, such as Christianity or other faiths, one can at least define moral good and evil under the presupposition of how one's faith defines moral good and evil. Taken one step further, one's faith offers a lens of finding purpose and fulfillment in life. Asking myself this question while reading CS Lewis' Mere Christianity was one of the first steps for me in refining my conviction in my faith.
You realize I'm a Catholic myself right? I'm just trying to see things from the atheists' perspective, have their take on it and not make assumptions about them right off the bat. Because it's so easy to say that 'atheists only see the world as meaningless, we're all cells and clumps of stardust'. That's one of the biggest assumptions Christians make about atheists and it's easy to see that it's just not true - does the average Joe see themselves as cells and clumps of stardust and therefore just YOLOs thru life cuz what's the point? No! Many fundamentalist atheist camps, in their own discussions, have also expressed boredom and weariness with this clumsy assumption that Christians make about them like a broken record (And again, I'm Catholic myself so I myself rejoice in the fact that there's an ultimate exit op in the promise of eternal life. I'm just wary of making assumptions about others because that's just bad economics)
And with all due respect, I read Mere Christianity last month and I have my own thoughts about it, although I'll be free to admit I haven't fully wrapped my head around all the formal philosophical debate of it. The 1st book was good - he used 'clues in the universe' to make a case for a Creator. He used Objective Morality for that. Calm. But then he kinda fell off steam when he just stopped at Objective Morality and used that as his sole case, and jumped straightaway into Christian behaviour which imo left some ends loose
For me, Objective Morality (as a case for a Creator) is somewhat flimsy and incomplete. I haven't fully gathered my thoughts about it, but I have a solution - game theory. Economists model human choices as a function of what other people do. I drive on the right side of the road not because I think it's inherently correct, but because everyone else does and if I don't, I'll crash my car (clumsy analogy there, maybe, but please allow me to suspend some rationality for the time being). Similarly, humans don't go around punching people, not necessarily because they think it's inherently immoral, because they know, (with their own internal iterative mental models), that other humans will retaliate if they do.
I was thinking deeply about my past experiences and how I came to even KNOW OF societal Objective Morals as a kid, and then I realized - I never stopped punching, mocking or belittling the other kids at school because I thought they were 'Objectively bad'. I stopped punching and bullying people because the bigger kids would punch me back. I follow the law and don't hit people because I know of the consequences.
Which has nothing to do with Christianity? Religion doesn't make someone wish for something more than "simple materialistic succes". After all, you'd expect the opposite... there should be no practicing Christians in banking, since they'll never enter the kingdom of heaven anyway (rich folk generally do have trouble with that, I'm told)
Um, this is explicitly not true. Generally speaking, atheists are atheists because their experience with religion (nearly always Christianity, for US demographic reasons) was so abhorrent that they broke free of years of brainwashing to find their own path.
You're confusing the fact that Christians love to shove their faith in other people's faces with the atheist' general desire to be let alone to live their life. Religious people who are actively practicing can't help but shove their religious-inspired moralizing in other people's faces, a fact which you are perfectly demonstrating with this post.
So your argument is that it is a positive that religious people, and Christians in particular, are obligated to push their religious beliefs on others?
If there is something other than an empty darkness waiting for us at the end of the journey, then that something will hopefully care more about the good I did with my life and the light I brought into others' than they will about my going on the internet and boasting about my faith and how my belief in Jesus as a personal savior (or whatever your particular flavor may be) will get me into heaven. And if there is nothing, then I'll have lived a better life, less full of hate and judgement (well, maybe not judgement in my case) than the average religious person.
I think it is possible to give good career and even life advice without having the impetus of religion to drive it. I'm culturally Jewish but functionally atheist, and that doesn't stop me from doing good deeds or helping others or having empathy. Given the opinions I hear from self-professed Christians on this site, it seems to be doing me a world of good when it comes to helping the poor, the sick, and the needy. In terms of opinions on here as a microcosm, and more generally across the nation, it seems like the most fervently religious people (of all denominations) are the least likely to extend a helping hand to those who don't think or look like them. I'd rather be an atheist and extend that hand to any who need it, then restrict it to a specific subgroup.
Not to mention the strong tendency for religious organizations, in America especially, to tacitly condone and protect child rapists.
Yeah... no shit. ;)
The usual attack religion with little no explanation how your life has improved or will for others. Again the claim that you get to choose your own way......sure you do atheism......which for most people is not giong to be a super virtuous route.
I've known tons of atheists in my life. I'm really not super impressed with any of them on a moral basis. Decent people sure. Great people....eh.
I've met tons of Christians and not super impressed either but there are some who take it seriously have literally dedicated their lives to helping others sometimes going so far as living in poverty and giving away all their possessions. Check your local charity and see if it has a Christian basis as a start.
Last thought.....you're less full of hate as an atheist? What strawman are you arguing against?
How exactly would you like to explain that my life has improved the lives of others? Telling you about the money I give to charity, or the time I spend volunteering? By the way, you offered no proof that your religion has helped others; I responded with the sort of vague inanities that offered. Presumably you are defining virtue as "living a Christian life," though from the rest of your response it seems like you've decided that all the good things that aren't unique to Christianity (a.k.a. are just the parts of being human which make us capable of forming civil societies) count as "religious" and all the things that are objectively and obviously evil, or which don't conform to your idea of how you should live your life, don't count.
OK, but your definition of "great people" is subjective. If my neighbor is still a practicing Catholic, I don't want their good opinion - after all, they support a Church which has been actively engaged in defending pedophiles for quite some time. Someone who thinks "hey, the Catholic Church seems to put a higher priority on protecting child rapists than protecting children themselves" and still decides to associate with that organization is tacitly condoning those priorities. As I said... it would be insulting to me to think that those people viewed my moral compass as similar to theirs.
How does living in poverty help others?
Well, for one, I don't think gay people are less deserving of full rights merely because of their sexual orientation. Many if not most practicing Christians would disagree. Read the Bible and tell me it isn't full of hate. If you don't think the Bible is revealed wisdom, you're not a Christian. It's part of the package.
This is my point about religion in general. If you are picking and choosing just the parts that are good and generous while ignoring the parts that are hateful and evil, then you're not a religious person, just a good person. I believe in charity and good works, but that doesn't make me a Christian. Sure, if you want to self-identify as a Christian, be my guest, but that won't make it so.
I’ve met a large amount of different groups of people and have found it interesting who believes in God and who doesn’t. What surprised me is that a large amount of Medical Doctors have seen miracle like situations and they believe in God, but the Scientists (PhDs) largely believe in science and evidence and can’t make the leap of faith to believe in God. If it can’t be proven, they don’t believe in it.
It reminds me of the verse about Thomas: “blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.”
+1SB. I've never understood this point about evidence. Obviously, if we all knew that God lived in Colorado or 3 million light years from our galaxy and we could see him with a telescope, it would change the entire scope of religion. Everyone would be faithful for the same reason that you don't go speeding 100 mph when you know a cop is around the corner. The whole point is the not knowing for certain and believing any way and living a good life. If we all knew for certain, the very beauty of belief itself would evaporate.
But why do you need belief to be a good person? If there were evidence of a deity, then of course it wouldn't be faith anymore, it would just be living in North Korea - cosmic dictator sees and hears all, and if you do what it says you get rewarded, or at least not punished.
Given that no evidence of a deity exists... why do you need faith? What does it gain you, except the possibility of a reward? An atheist who lives a moral life and a religious person who lives a moral life are no different, except that the religious person is doing it for the transactional reason of wanting an eternal reward. Why corrupt the concept of the Golden Rule with the necessity of being rewarded for it? If you are a good person, it doesn't matter, and then you escape the hypocrisy and immorality that comes with the framework of organized religion.
It is likely selection bias. It would be difficult for a believer to become a PhD in anything, because it inherently requires someone to question basic assumptions in a way that being a medical doctor does not. A physicist who accepts that the half life of uranium is 4.5 billion years cannot, and that dinosaurs existed millions of years before humans, cannot accept the Biblical story of creation as written. A medical doctor may not have that inherent contradiction. So if you have a lot of MDs who are self-professed believers, they're more likely to ascribe divine intervention as the reason for anything they don't understand.
Again, I'm not exactly sure what strawman you are arguing against. Most Christians I know believe that the creation story is not literal.
I mean I think I agree with you. If there was this terrible religion out there that didn't believe in science at all and was filled with hate and animosity for others, I wouldn't like it either. But I'm sorry that's a straw man. If anything, it sounds like you are arguing against the Westboro Baptist Church rather than mainline Christians.
You can keep hating that straw man religion if you like or YOU can try to be rational and realize that you are arguing against a straw man. After all, you are Mr. Rational here right? Well, here's a challenge. Be rational and stop arguing against strawman arguments.
As I noted discussing with trying_my_best earlier, this a perfect example of atheism. Super rational until it doesn't want to be rational. Ok, to argue with logical fallacies as long as it supports your worldview and then beat down the other person as not being on the side of reason and evidence.
To those with faith, no explanation is needed. To those without faith, no explanation will suffice.
The Wolf hath speaketh.
Also "For we walk by faith, and not by sight" (2 Cor. 5:7) my Catholic brother!
Amen
I'm trying to organize a trip either next year or the year after to see this icon. It's the most famous icon and Catholic relic in Poland and there's a lot of associated history with it. Growing up when I'd visit family in Poland, thousands of pilgrims would hike through my family's town as it was one of the routes and my aunt (of Holy Memory) and cousin would make sandwiches and iced tea and set up a stand with a portapotty for pilgrims going through. I have very fond memories of that as a kid.
I used to live by and attend this Polish church in NYC (East Village).
St. Stanislaus B & M – Roman Catholic Church (stanislauschurch.us)
They had the icon of Our Lady of Czestochowa there and I became very fond of this church and would even sometimes attend the Polish masses and started to learn to read and write Polish. It was run by the Pauline Fathers. I recently had left the corporate world and started my own company. I didn't have a manager anymore and felt that God could lead me in my company. Then I felt that a higher calling would be to work directly for God as a priest, so I talked to the pastor of this church and asked if I could apply to be a Pauline Father.
He said that I could talk to the vocation director at The National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa – Nonprofit Organization · Religious Organization · Catholic Church. I rented a car and drove to PA from NYC and talked to the vocation director about moving to Czestochowa, Poland to join the Pauline Fathers. I ended up staying with a Catholic family in Doylestown, PA for 2 months while I applied. It didn't work out, but I have always remained close to Our Lady of Czestochowa.
There is also a shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC.
I’m not sure how you can say there is a large amount of Christian users on the site, that would be hard to quantify.
I mean most of trump supporters are Christian and believe the election was rigged right?
By using your logic, we could then say many people who identify as Christians are promoting his divisive and inflammatory rhetoric.
I believe in Occam's Razor on this one. The simplest answer to this question is that it was not rigged. Also, Jan 6 was one of the dumbest things Trump could have done.
wow just @ me next time.
In all seriousness, I've had a strong reversion to my faith tradition the last few years, and at least in my case it's been because my parents are aging and are in poor health unfortunately, but always as a kid I've felt I believed in some kind of God/deity/lifeforce/dharma/etc. It's been a support pillar and also provided a very strong sense of grounding. This is principally because even if you don't believe the stories and a lot of it seems far-fetched to you (on top of there being so many interpretations), it seems to be no coincidence that all major religions emphasis acting like a good person. Of course, plenty of atheists are good people, and there are plenty that use religion to cause trauma, but at the end of the day it's been one of the best cultural creations we have that preserves a sense of intrinsic morality.
I had faith that you would show up....no need to @
it's a social media term, sarcasm doesn't travel well over text. Really enjoyed reading your post, hope you're doing well!
Interesting thread to read - regardless of stance, I enjoy hearing others' thoughts & beliefs, then seeing how they tie their rationale into said thought. Not insinuating there is a correct or incorrect answer; to be fair, not a single one of us here technically knows the truth. One day, however, we will!
Speaking directly to NoEquityResearch, I must highlight your fantastic point made in the context of the self-indulgence piece, something that both the distributors and receivers of information may not think about while said knowledge is being presented. I can recall my own AMA I did over a year back, and have no problem admitting that both sides of the spiel played a role during mine. Yes, I primarily aimed to provide relevant and insightful commentary about my career in the hope that those below me could take home some key points, but you know what? It did feel a little good answering those questions. What a remarkable thing to think about.
While I won't attempt to stir any nerves, I've frequently thought about religion and have yet to make the jump. I have always considered myself agnostic - currently don't subscribe to any pre-set religion, but I won't be so cocky as to declare NOTHING out there exists. Perhaps one day this will change as my views continually alter and evolve.
Anyway, that was a bunch of words to basically say good thread! Enjoyed the read.
Thanks! I've actually thought of writing another post completely unrelated to religion on common reasons why people give advice and mentorship. In my opinion, kids sometimes see mentorship as a one-way street where they are the recipients of the advice and help, and there is nothing given in return. If you understand that each side benefits to some extent, you can be a much better mentee and both parties can get more out of the exchange. I'll give you an example of the wrong way to do things that I see on here too often.....anyone who asks a question and then types "Thanks in advance!" Mentors aren't chatGPT robots here to serve you kid.
On religion, if you're interested in learning a little more, I'm a huge fan of Father Mike Schmitz on YouTube. Real casual, entertaining but thoughtful discussions on a bunch of religious topics:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeXS0cAkuTPpJ6j3eH59WudJhJ4q1tpwH
jacked very wholesome priest, man's a national treasure. Isaiah_53_5 💎🙌💎🙌💎 should deadlift with him
I recently have come across Pints with Aquinas and Bishop Barron's various stuff. His talk with Lex Friedman was really interesting, I feel like many on here (atheists, agnostics, and everyone in between) can take something from it.
btw, you seen Nefarious that came out recently?
It’s seems there’s some things being conflated, namely being a good person and being a Christian. The first is subjective while the second is pretty clear in Scripture (“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9 ).
The core of Christianity, and what separates it from all other religions, is the substitutionary atonement of Jesus for all who call in His name. It’s unique in that there’s no unknown good works bar to clear, you just have to accept that you can’t clear it but you can trust that Jesus did it for you. We are all broken sinners who have sinned against a perfect God and therefore our just punishment for not being perfect is separation from perfection. But God wanted communion with his people so instead of requiring repeated animal sacrifice as outlined by Moses, He sent His son to live a perfect life and be the once and for all sacrifice. As a result, there’s forgiveness and grace for all those who believe. That’s it, that’s the whole deal. There’s no trying hard to do good associated with that, it’s accepting that you’re not perfect but in that you can commune with a perfect God who loves you as you die to yourself. The response is to then love and serve others out of the love you have for Jesus.
On the comments on the Bible and being taken literally, that’s not how it was written. The first 10 chapters of Genesis, for instance, are allegorical. Not that there isn’t truth but it doesn’t need to be read literally. Revelation isn’t meant to be taken literally either and it’s not meant to be a predictor of the future. The reality is that the books of the Bible were written for all people but not TO all people. They were written TO the people at the time who understood the context. Certain sects of the American church have totally missed this and do themselves, and their congregations, harm.
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