Yelled at for saying "No Problem"
Hello Monkeys,
I had to come to WSO, because what just happened was so absurd, I wanted to get some feedback/opinions of the interaction that just occurred.
So I'm a part-time intern at a PWM branch near my hometown, I work directly with an advisor - she's female, in her mid-60s, and has a pretty solid book of business. I have made minimal mistakes throughout the beginning of my internship (I started this semester) and I have been very polite when interacting with her.
So she had asked me to update some things on one of her spreadsheets, pretty easy task. I completed said task and when she said "Thank You" and I replied "No problem, please let me know if you need anything else."
I head back to my desk and I see an email 5 minutes later asking me to come to her office. I was then sat down for a half hour saying how saying "No problem" is incorrect and how its a generational issue with millennials.
I sat in the office dumbfounded and I wanted to get your take on this. What's your opinion WSO? Is saying no problem after a task completed at the junior level disrespectful?
"No problem" implies you've done someone a favour and you are telling them they should not feel indebted to you for it. She may have got upset over that.
I wouldn't care about the implicit message in this phrase if one of my juniors said it to me, because I recognise the phrase has become generic and largely lost that implicit message.
sounds like you read into things too much.
How is 'you're welcome' any better by this logic?
The implicit meaning of "you're welcome" has been watered down more.
Some people care about this shit. Some don't.
I generally don't care about it.
However, if I'm dealing with a client or someone else whose response impacts my total comp or professional trajectory, I do care about it.
What the fuck are you on about?
I'm surprised how much MS you got for that response, I feel like it was a logical explanation.
I heard something similar about the implications from using the word "problem." But it may be one of those things some people overthink. Suggested alternative: your welcome & any time.
Visualize a situation where someone says "no problem" vs"anytime" how did you feel? [Serious, visualize]
I mean just smile and nod. It's stupid she tonight it up , but everyone has their pet peeves.
Btw no problem is perfectly fine with everyone else in the world so don't worry.
She's an insecure asshole. Just take it, be glad it is an internship and not a long-term thing, and move on.
^ Indeed. She is very insecure, such people ruin workplaces.
I just want to point out that this may be the only thing that BobTheBaker & @TNA" have ever agreed on, so you should pretty much take it as the truth.
What an unexpected treat on a Friday.
I say "no problem" a lot too instinctively. It's actually become a habit. There are plenty of variations to this term if she's going to lose her shit every time you say it.
Try:
Sure Sure thing My pleasure Of course Anytime You're welcome With pleasure Let me know if there's anything else
etc
Once you start to break the habit it'll be ok. She sounds like one of those older people that is concerned about the generational gap and her changing landscape. She sees this as an opportunity to right a wrong she thinks younger people are creating. Giving her the satisfaction of just not saying it is a small price to pay, and she'll probably write you a glowing recommendation if you make light of this type of stuff.
Thank you, it is a habit for me as well. I guess I just need to change my vernacular a bit to accommodate her, at least until the end of the internship.
Yeah, for sure bro. Suck that letter of recommendation out of her.. it'll help down the line.
Another good one I use frequently: "Absolutely." They like that
This is interesting because about 6 months ago my mother was discussing this with my wife and I. She was telling us how it's not appropriate, or a substitute for you're welcome. My wife and I disagreed because its pretty common. My mother who is American said she thinks its a cultural thing, being that we live in South Florida and in Spanish "no es problema" has translated poorly into a substitute for you're welcome. She's also roughly the age of the adviser you work for.
I get why it bugged you, it would bug me to. But I'd heed her advice: #1 you're in PWM which means you'll probably be speaking with a sophisticated and older client base. They probably will expect formal communication.
2 this is where you need to be cognizant of cultural differences. Now you know that to older generation, this can be construed as offensive. Think of speaking to your seniors like it's visiting another country, be aware of what's customarily acceptable and do your best to abide by it.
It is not a millennial thing at all. I have heard NP come from people now in their 90's. Also, I have said it to people across all generations and have yet to ever be corrected or informed about it being in proper.
Still though, do take heed to what other posters said about minding the 'You're welcome' vs NP. Particularly, if a superior told you. Odds are 99.9% of her book could not care, but there is always that .1 who think Buchanan is still in office.
Does thanks not imply that this task you just took part in was somehow worth being thankful for. Thus, making "no problem" a perfectly reasonable response? LOL your boss has way too much time on her hands my man.
I'm pretty sure she wanted something else from you, and the "no problem" thing was just an excuse to call you into her office. Way to blow your opportunity to advance
"special situation group"
I got bitched at for saying "cool" before. Some people in this business are just crazy and think it is their way or the highway. In some cases, maybe they are right and you need to improve. In this case, she is an idiot. I wouldn't sweat it. Just make sure not to say it to her again, do a good job for the rest of your internship to preserve a good reference, and move on. Be thankful it's just an internship, as this lady sounds miserable.
I'm fairly young and I would still think "cool" is passive aggressive and dismissive.
In what context?
I don't see the problem with thanks either. Unless you're asking for an unusually large request from somebody then maybe I can see how it would come off as flippant, but for the majority of interactions thanks and no problem seem to be the status quo. I guess some people, OP's boss and you are just sensitive about word choice
I hate when people sign off with v/r...makes me think they are too lazy to spell out very respectfully. Its even worse if thats their standard signature..
When networking: Jon - free to talk now, call number below
Thx
Or worse tx / tks.... especially after I've stayed at the office until 4 am for you - you couldn't be bothered to write the whole word out?
I like threads like this because it honestly allows me to be thankful for the fact that I don't work with assholes.
This!
I am so happy that I work with people who I can grab drinks with on a Friday after work and actually enjoy myself
Such is life in PWM
There is a professor at my school that I talk with sometimes because she worked in banking before going into academia. She's in her 60s. I signed my email with "Have a nice day!" She yelled at me and told me if I wanted people to take me seriously in the industry I couldn't sound like a barista lol.
I was a little annoyed but I think she had good intent. She strongly believed that what I said was incorrect and wanted to inform on the correct etiquette.
The exclamation point in the signature tweaks me far more than the actual content, FWIW
I don't really understand why, I'm just trying to be friendly. The exclamation point seems to bother a lot people so I just stopped using it.
Before I read the post, just the headline I thought to myself this person who yelled at you must be in their 60s....My father has the exact same qualm with the phrase. He also likes to be called by Mr. Lastname.
Of course it isn't. Perhaps being incredibly petty is a generational issue with the "golden generation," right up there with tanking the American economy and putting an entire generation into soul crushing debt by telling them they have to go to college and them making college unnecessarily expensive.
Take her advice for your internship, of course, but I would avoid people like her like the plague in the future.
Maybe it's just me but all I heard here was "Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh".
10 upvotes to 1 downvote. It's you.
Sad corporate hag. Wants dick. Sad she's single. Resents world. Resents men. Resents you.
This. probably divorced and resents men or married and hates her husband.
Not married, no children. No heir. She'll die and have no one to give her inheritance to.
Between this and the "you're the one being bought" comment, you're on a role. +SB
this is what happens when people are angry and need to take it out on someone. sounds like any small "insubordination" wouldve caused this eruption
My boss got mad at me for using "Hello" instead of "Dear" in a sales email.
Great conversation piece to laugh about for the interviews for my next job.
If someone doesn't like your mannerisms, then I would personally research some of the most annoying and cheerful canned responses and constantly repeat them towards that person in conversations.
Like in the south I guess they use "bless your heart" as a way of telling you to go f yourself.
Just be petty back to petty people.
I'm going to run against the grain here. You should be thankful she is teaching you this skill early on. Relentless professionalism will always be in style. This goes double when you are dealing with other people's money.
Fuck you. As the rappers say, "game recognize game." If you work for people (whether boss or client) who care more about semantics than they do about effectiveness and clarity, politely tell them to shove it (after lining up a new job/client, of course)
Relentless professionalism will NOT always be in style. Maybe this applies if you're a PWM drone who grinds it out 9-5 sucking off fading old money glory and applying tired conventional wisdom, but that sounds like a bleak god damn existence to me.
Sorry for the aggressive tone. I spent too much time when I was younger around sad/arrogant/insecure individuals with sticks up their asses. I also find there tends to be a robust inverse relation between obsessive formality and business acumen/investment talent.
For better or worse, I have worked with a lot of individuals in every "wall st"/business role you could imagine (ranging from interns back in the day up to F50 CEO's), and my experience has consistently been that the best of the best are folks who curse like sailors, aren't afraid to hurt your feelings, and have never heard of Emily Post.
If your professional success is contingent on others' perception of you, rather than the long run product of your real talent and work, you're doing it wrong. (Disclaimer: I have literally never held a job outside of the hedge fund world, and my entire life has been governed by 'money talks bullshit walks.' Those of you who know me, know that I enjoy verbally abusing pompous and arrogant bankers, IA's, salesmen, brokers, etc, who don't know their stuff)
Disclaimer 2: I am drunk, but this is the internet, sue me.
I couldn't agree more with you. My focus area is turnarounds precisely because you can be as crass as you want. I'm not great with subtlety. I've also made the same observations about successful leaders being blunt --- something so many lack today.
But this guy isn't a successful leader. he's a fucking pwm, and an intern at that. So I stand by my advice.
Life lesson: Outside of the hedge fund world, your professional success is contingent on others' perception of you, not the long run product of your real talent and work.
You're my new role model.
Part of growing up and entering in the work force. At the end of the day life moves on and hope tomorrow will be a better day... its just an internship/job
I use the Bart Simpson "No problemo" all the freakin' time at work. I'm a bit blown away at the OP's story (then again, I also sign some of my emails to my male boss "XOXO"--he gets a kick out of it).
Her response is ridiculous, however saying "no problem" is some what belittling. It basically says a problem she had, was something that you have no issue with. It is more of an issue of her shortcomings than anything you did. I would advise you transition that phrase out of your vocabulary just to prevent this in the future, even if your bosses are incompetent idiots when it comes to technology they are still your bosses.
I don't really agree that it's belittling. It's more of an informal substitute for "you're welcome." The vast, vast majority of people don't actually take the literal meaning of the words "no problem" and attach a meaning to it. It's the equivalent of responding to a "thanks" with a "you got it" or "any time." The literal meaning of the words is lost to the colloquial meaning, which is simply "you're welcome."
I agree, I am just giving insight about how it is perceived by some especially the older generation who had to go through an era in business when computers weren't a thing. You just have to remember that something that is no big deal to you might be very difficult for others.
When I started in pwm I worked with an older advisor who was prone to these sorts of outbursts. The few assistants before me hated working for him. That being said, he and I developed a pretty awesome working relationship. It takes a little give on your part.
Just grow a slightly thicker skin and smile and thank her for this sort of critical feedback when it comes. She is teaching you, however poorly, how she wants you to act in front of her clients. What she wants is for you to speak formally. It's actually not a bad life skill to learn in the professional services industry. Some advisors strike a more congenial tone with clients and attract more casual clients/relationships; others prefer to stay very formal and attract clients that have that attitude. You can choose your own approach in the long run, but for now, you're there to support her book and her style.
By smiling and thanking her for this feedback without giving "your side", you will show maturity and respect, which she will come to appreciate in time. You can even go a step further and ask what other types of behaviors you might be able to improve on, so you will know before she has another blowup.
As an aside, I spent 6 years in the hospitality industry before PWM. "No problem" is definitely incorrect and frowned upon in some social circles. The theory (this comes directly from a lecture I attended by Peter Post, Emily Post's grandson) is that coming from a service provider, "No problem" implies that there may have been the potential for a problem but that you, as the service professional, are stepping above or shoving aside that potential. "My pleasure" or something similar is more polite.
This is why I hate consultants. Fucking tools
You think the reason behind this is that consultants just love being tools instead of being prompted by the clients they serve?
If the work is the same quality and one firm communicates more formally/respectfully, who do you think gets the business?
next time say: it's a pleasure working with you; please let me know if there is anything else I can do, for example, I could pleasure you orally right here in your office!
she might be happy with that! :)
I use "no worries" with my directors all the time but since I'm trying to move industries I might need to heed this as a warning
This sounds like something only a hyper PC, corporate office drone would take issue with; the fact your boss is a woman also doesn't surprise me. Technically yes, "no problem" could be interpreted as overly casual, but only by a select few assholes.
Your boss, IMO, was way out of line for raking you over the coals for such a complete non-issue, and it sounds to me if she's very insecure potentially, professionally or otherwise. I'd heed what she said, and not say it again around her, but that's just to keep her from flipping out again. Going forward, don't feel scared to say that when confirm to your superiors that you're aware of what you need to do and that you'll be able to adequately complete.
I'm gonna answer this seriously. I think she is just hungry for some young stud to fuck her on her desk. Everything will get better afterwards.
I think this probably true, seconded.
Just reply with "my pleasure" after every time she says thank you ...until you start sounding like a chick fil a cashier
Don't do this.
What BobTheBaker said. She was looking for a reason to get ticked off at something. Obviously a fearful manager.
Almost as stupid and childish as the whole lyrics to hey ya:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-whole-lyrics-to-hey-ya
Send her a brief polite note saying you've decided to move on, in view of the culture fit issue. In the future, if you get treatment like this from anyone, quit on the spot.
She is a nasty old biotch with a personality disorder. Unfortunately there are many like her among that generation of female professionals. I learned the hard way not to work for these office sadists.
In the long run, your self-respect is way more important than what's on your resume when you're 21 and still in school.
wrong.
While we`re on the generational gap, if you were 21-25 would it bother you if someone from the 45-65 group referred to you and your peers as "kids"? Does this label have a place in the office workplace?
wouldn't bother me in the slightest. in fact I use "kid" to describe people my own age (21-25) all the time, not to their face but something like oh I knew this kid at firm X that worked on deal Y
If the advisor has 30 minutes to lecture you on this, she clearly is not working hard enough to grow her book of business. I would pay her no mind.
I don't see anything wrong with the reply. Maybe, some people are too sensitive with such response.
My advice would be to avoid these people like the plague in the future. You have got to have no life in order to be offended by something that small.
It is what it is. While in banking, I once got yelled at for printing a draft of something double-sided (the MD asked to take my draft, so of course I gave it to him). I was less than six months into my first year as an analyst.
Still makes me laugh to this day.
Your boss is the kind of person you should avoid. In a client-facing role, you have to be cognizant of generational biases and bullshit misconceptions, but inside the shop, only the results matter. Absorb the lesson and move on.
Have heard of this more and more lately. Part BS part truth. "No problem" in this case implies she had a problem in the first place as her fault type thing. Mark it up as BS and move on.
I used to be a management consultant staffed on a DoD project working with many older men. Many of our associate consultants got yelled at for the "no problem" as opposed to "you're welcome" response. Just adapt and move on.
I have had a similar experiences as well. I, too, work in wealth management and have been corrected on numerous occasions for saying "no problem" to Senior Financial Advisors and clients. It's pretty much a curse word in the PWM and PB world. The proper response at the firms I've worked in lieu of "no problem" is "my pleasure". Its a customer service thing more than anything else-at least that is the explanation that was given to me.
No need to get "mad" at you because you're right, it has become a commonplace expression. But what it does is suggest the possibility of a problem and there should be no problem at all in asking you to do some legitimate part of your job. A very high-end retail store trains people to never use that expression (yes, I know, I know you are not retail) and to reply instead "you're welcome" or like the Latins do "my pleasure". (mi placer). I am sure I am a different generation but I also involuntarily bristle when I hear "no problem" as a response to a request that is appropriate.
this woman is clearly insecure over her own age and worried that these dang millenials, with their ability to understand and adapt to technology, will very soon make her obsolete
She's a moron. She sounds excessively insecure. While I think No Problem is better substituted with My Pleasure, this woman should quit and get fired. As a female myself when people say No Problem to me if I had nothing else going on in my life maybe I'd freak out. Anyway, is there a way to prank her azzzz?
Agree with SSits. But your supervisor's reaction does seem a little over the top. That's her deal though, not yours. She could have explained that to you in five minutes with the intent to educate you, which ought to be part of an internship. Let's hope you remember this incident and react differently toward your juniors in 40 years!
Folks, this is straightforward. Do the math: ** "No Problem" is something you will hear HF/Consulting ** "No Problem" is something you will hear 50%+ of the time in the service industry, such as low-end retail, quick service restaurant, etc
It's absolutely cringeworthly and in my time in consulting, private equity, venture capital, HF, and as an operating and finance exec, I have never used those words... and as I have become a manager and leader (and still even to help my peers), I have always corrected it because it will do nothing but hurt you. There is no upside, only downside. It's not generational or cultural. "No problem" is simply not an appropriate thing to say.
In a very literal interpretation, an a**hole manager might think "Of course it's not a problem. You work for me and I instructed you to do something" In a comical interpretation, "You didn't say it was not a problem last time ... did you not want to do the last project? Did you not do it with the same level of excellence?"
I realize that the usage of this phrase may be more common than it has been in the past, but your responses of rage and in calling older people names is absolutely missing the point of the feedback. OP -- think about it this way. Your manager took 30 minutes to provide feedback about this one thing. She obviously cares about your long term success because she dedicated a massive amount of time (30 minutes!)... especially relative to how dismissive many of you have been in your comments.
Alternatives 1) "happy to help" 2) "of course" 3) "let me know what else I can do to" 4) "definitely" 5) "your welcome" 6) "my pleasure" 7) "absolutely" 8) "It was fun/challenging/etc" 9) "thank you for the opportunity"
Happy to discuss more but please take my message for what it is ... trying to help and I really hope this resonates and helps you all!
Obvi not relevant to this situation but "you're welcome" would've sounded more offensive to me than "no problem" (I generally say "no worries") since the extra formality makes it seem like you think you actually did them a favor and not just doing your job that they're paying you for.
I always thought "no problem" was actually nicer than "you're welcome"--the first is "what you asked did not bother me", the second is "feel free to owe me a debt for this small favor".
Anyways, though I've made mental notes to say you're welcome to older guys and not say cool to people above associates, I "slip" in conversation and literally no one gives a shit.
I think it does make sense to do one or two old-timey or over-polite things. For me, it's ending emails with "thanks" or "thank you", even when not micro-appropriate or -relevant. Never really thought about it this way, but being young, it kind of signals that I'm thankful for the position I'm in. "Best" always seemed like a wrinkly firm handshake way to talk, or at best something you'd write to end a missive sent via snail mail across an ocean. "Cheers" in America is a no go for Americans, and "Sincerely"...this isn't third grade penmanship class.
I do think the introduction is very complicated. In today's hyper-PC culture, writing "dear" to an (attractive) female coworker could be thought of as a come-on. I'm not a fan of the "first name of audience as the introduction" approach, but looks like that's what is industry standard these days.
Update - send her a bag of dicks and a couple glitter bombs through the mail. Also a large dildo at the end of your internship.
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