Joining a new fund - Risk, reward, and comp?

I might have an opportunity to join a new $500M buyout fund. I've always been interested in joining a fund in the early-stages for better long-tern economics and growth. I trust the partners who're starting the fund as they've had great track record and previous success with companies.

I going to ask to join as a Sr. Associate (I'm currently a 2nd year associate at a $1.5Bn fund with all-in at $270k and no carry). Negotiation is currently an open-ended discussion and we'll discuss what the title and role would look like but good chance I get that title bump.

I've read through some of the other posts here but generally, what're some of the pros and cons I need to consider here? Is the risk/reward worth it? Does someone joining at the Sr. Assoc level really works to the bone and basically have no WLB? Sector focus wise - they'll be looking into industries that I like as well and have prior experience in.

Lastly, what should be my fair comp ask / expectations? I'll be in a Tier 1 city. I haven't negotiated carry before so would be great to get some guidance there as well. 

24 Comments
 

Pros:

- disproportionate economics for someone your age

- access to other things like hiring / firm building / fundraising which can be exciting (also could be viewed as a con)

- easier promotion track at a smaller fund

- can basically help the standards for what the firm is / becomes

-Better WLB (anecdotal but I was the 4th hire at a new fund and there’s a lot of trust given to founding guys vs new analysts etc)

Cons / things I’d look out for:

-why will management teams want to partner with your firm? Better have huge confidence in the GP / founding partners

- have to do more work than just investment team stuff until you’ve staffed up accordingly

- guessing cash comp at a $500mm fund probably will be less than the $1.5bn fund you’re at but who knows

- networking / getting your name out there with bankers / lenders etc takes a while and you need someone who is good at it. Would hire a BD guy honestly for this


Lastly - I did this early in my career, it was the right move and negotiated a title bump. Not sure how old you are but I’ve always found being more senior at a smaller fund is better than climbing the ranks at larger funds. Just my preference though

 

Pros:

- disproportionate economics for someone your age

- access to other things like hiring / firm building / fundraising which can be exciting (also could be viewed as a con)

- easier promotion track at a smaller fund

- can basically help the standards for what the firm is / becomes

-Better WLB (anecdotal but I was the 4th hire at a new fund and there’s a lot of trust given to founding guys vs new analysts etc)

Cons / things I’d look out for:

-why will management teams want to partner with your firm? Better have huge confidence in the GP / founding partners

- have to do more work than just investment team stuff until you’ve staffed up accordingly

- guessing cash comp at a $500mm fund probably will be less than the $1.5bn fund you’re at but who knows

- networking / getting your name out there with bankers / lenders etc takes a while and you need someone who is good at it. Would hire a BD guy honestly for this


Lastly - I did this early in my career, it was the right move and negotiated a title bump. Not sure how old you are but I’ve always found being more senior at a smaller fund is better than climbing the ranks at larger funds. Just my preference though

Your very last point is where the industry is headed too. So many people 35-45 have and will continue to jump from the MF/UMM/MM funds to start their own thing down market. 

 

I joined a first time fund about a year after the close of Fund I and came after one year as an associate at a larger firm with a very similar strategy in the same sector. My experience was that I had little negotiation power because of (i) the fact that I was coming in as an associate vs. VP so carry was not a consideration; and (ii) the fact that I joined after Fund I already closed vs. before, which makes a significant difference from a practical risk standpoint. I've now been at my firm for nearly 6 years and we're halfway through Fund III, so I have a healthy amount of datapoints internally as well as a bunch of friends from associate to principal in similar situations. I'll give my rough take at a range of outcomes from the low to generous range (but in both cases, not unreasonable / not wildly off-market) - there may be some flexibility to trade between the levers depending on what's important to you i.e., take lower cash but fight for carry, etc., hence why I'm giving a range for each independently: (i) cash - $275-425K; (ii) carry - 0bps to 100bps [some of this comes down to how good you feel about the partners and what they are hoping to achieve i.e., if they come from MFs and are telling you the aspiration is to go from $500M to $1.5B in fund II, I would feel better about a lower allocation but if they are purposefully staying at $500M then I'd fight for more]; (iii) title - Senior Associate is a more than reasonable ask for your experience, although I could see them asking you to do a 3rd year as an associate all the way up to giving you a VP title if that was important to you depending on what they are envisioning as their career track / team structure.

If you were to ask me what I personally believe the biggest benefit for me of joining a new(ish) fund has been, I would say that it is achieving an "above market" chance to make partner. I think I could make more cash elsewhere, achieve a higher carry DAW allocation elsewhere (in both cases, bigger funds just make the pure math work better on both), and also cut my teeth to get promoted somewhere else more quickly as well (i.e., go back to a true pre-Fund I place as a mid level). But, at this point, I think it would be very difficult for me to go anywhere else and feel better about my odds of making it to partner. I have an incredible relationship with the co-founders, have a lot of freedom to manage my schedule but also flex upwards and show them I can source and run deals / portfolio companies, and ultimately get a lot of real-time and yearend feedback letting me know where I stand. You can't put a value on that, but just my 2 cents.

 

Incredibly helpful - thank you. A couple follow-ups; any thoughts around WLB when joining a new fund during or post raise as a Sr. Associate? Can assume the full team will be 5-6 people and look to make 4-5 platform deals. Do people really get grinded when joining a new fund, especially if it's majority buyout focused vs. growth/minority? I think asking for for $300-320k + 50-75bps of carry is probably fair?

I've always struggled with this, but what are some great questions to ask to sus out the partners and their strategy and vision without coming off as too aggressive or too risk averse. I want to fully understand what the role, expectations, and WLB would look like before agreeing to anything because I've gotten burned before and came in to a completely different role and expectations. 

 
Most Helpful

On the WLB point, I've seen it both ways but generally speaking, if you are going to be asking for carry pre-VP you should be prepared to grind for at least a period of time if they are willing to give it.

Another comment above referenced this, but I've had to be heavily involved in workstreams that investment professionals at larger firms have never touched: quarterly valuations / reporting, fund cashflow accounting, fundraising / liaising with LPs which basically means completing their requests that can come randomly at any given point, fully pulling together the annual general meeting materials, etc.. I would be prepared to learn the ropes across all of these fronts which personally I found to be good experience because they tell you a lot about how LPs think about successful PE funds vs. unsuccessful ones, but also a lot of mind-numbing work at times too, especially as an associate. To be fair, this type of work was relatively contained to when we were kicking off fundraising. During the fundraise, some LP requests became fire drills (i.e., pull down leverage levels for all of your portfolio companies on a quarterly basis vs. covenants - the type of stuff you wouldn't keep handy and could be an annoyingly manual pull yet are super time sensitive). I would assume that your job is going to involve these duties. I find it hard to believe that a $500M first time fund is going to deploy any sort of meaningful spend on resources to complete these types of tasks.

From a deal perspective, when I started at my fund, deal teams were legitimately sometimes a partner + associate. Bigger deals would be a partner, VP, associate (there was only one VP when I joined -- similar total team size of 5-6 including two founders who were deal leads). So how manageable your life is going to be on a live deal is going to depend a lot on the partners' philosophies on two things: (i) diligence; and (ii) internal procedure. On (i), are they the types to perform "large cap diligence" in the lower middle market which means turning over every stone even though these companies are going to be smaller with less sophisticated data platforms? If so, that's going to be brutal work especially when you don't have the fee overhead to cover real 3rd party advisors (i.e., instead of commissioning a consultancy to do a market study, that's going to be you most likely in conjunction with a VP). On (ii), are they the types who want to adhere to a very structured approach to committees? I consider our firm quite good at remaining nimble. If we have an LOI that's due on a Friday, we aren't going to sprint to complete a huge 100+ page deck for committee on Monday just to get approval, four days earlier than we needed to. We bring updates to committee in pieces, aren't sticklers for formatting, and ultimately call ad-hoc committees if we need to. This significantly alleviates the internal hurdles of getting a deal through committee, which helps. Not all small firms take this approach. The final X factor here I would call out which is unrelated to the partners is firm culture at the mid-level. As a VP, I always try to take the approach of dividing and conquering with my associate where I can, but I technically have every right to tell them to do nearly all of the heavy lifting. You'd be surprised at how much sway one or two employees can have on firm culture when the team is 10 people. When I was an associate, my VP didn't quite take that approach and so there were plenty of very late nights. There is no great way to diligence this unless you know an associate who is already there to get the real scoop - that's just going to be part of the risk of making the leap early.

As an associate, my work life balance was effectively the same as my life as an associate at a larger, more bureaucratic firm. I probably had a little more flexibility because we would do smaller banked deals / more proprietary deals with looser timelines, but when things got crazy, they got crazier because there was so little manpower. When we were fundraising for Fund II, that was effectively like running a mini sell-side process while managing all the actual normal aspects of an associate role. However, when things were slower, there was significantly less pressure to work just to work. 

As a VP / Principal, my work life balance is significantly better than my peers at larger funds (granted, I get paid less so that's kind of the trade). Even taking the approach of trying to pitch in with my associates, I find that I'm much more able to load balance and prioritize across my deals / initiatives. There is very limited politics involved since there are only two partners and our dealflow is highly transparent. If a deal is low likelihood or unlikely to pass committee because we've seen this type of deal get struck down before by the other partner, we will kill the deal early, etc. I'd estimate that now, I'm consistently working 40-50 hours per week, I'm in the office 3 days a week on average, and I'll be on 1-2 closed deals per year which will take 2-3 months and involve many 50-70 hour weeks of elevated work and a couple bad 70-80 hour weeks. I also would say that I'm significantly more involved in the higher level, junior partner-level duties compared to my friends with the same amount of work experience at bigger funds, which I think makes my hours spent more interesting too.  

In terms of diligencing the partners themselves and their track record, people will tell you to try and get a hold of their returns / track record, their fundraising deck, LP reference checks, etc. My experience has been that this is going to be basically impossible as a non-senior hire. My recommendation would be to try to get as much face time with the partners during the interview or post-offer process as possible. See if they'll hop on another call or grab breakfast with you post-offer, especially if they seem to be in sell mode to you. Do they seem like sharp guys / gals? What are they saying their edge / reason to exist in this competitive market is? Do you believe them? Hopefully you believe them, but if they can't even really convince you, then they probably aren't very convincing to founders / entrepreneurs / LPs. If they pass that smell test, I'd try to find anyone else who would be reasonable for you to connect with who might have an opinion on the partners or firm (i.e., Any associates or VPs who have left? Any associates who work or worked at their predecessor firms who can share their reputation there? Any bankers who they do lots of deals with who might have a perspective on how they stack up in processes and what their associates' lives seem like from the sell-side perspective?) You'd be surprised at what you can find out in this department if you're creative but ultimately you're going to need to take some form of leap of faith as it definitely can be highly variable.

 

And to respond to your point on buyout vs. growth, my fund does both so I can share a perspective here as well. Buyout will be tougher on WLB for sure. Primarily, this is because you have more workstreams to cover during diligence including a credit process (i.e., lender bakeoff, supplying data requests to lenders, negotiating terms, negotiating credit agreement, modeling that into your equity model, etc.), more information to uncover assuming these are more mature businesses even if the scale is roughly the same, and more of a "reason" to create a complex and balancing model given typically these are cashflowing businesses.

Growth / minority deals can fluctuate between diligence-lite to diligence-heavy - it all comes down to the firm's approach here. I've seen it both ways and different firms pick up different reputations with regards to this type of thing (especially sector-focused ones...just ask a VP at a competitive firm and I'm sure you'll get some thoughts). Typically though, the modeling will be simpler and more thematic-focused and the ability to really diligence historical data is going to be less than a buyout opportunity. There is also going to be more emphasis on term sheet negotiation and waterfall + structuring work than pure 3rd party diligence. 

 

I did this exact move after working at a larger fund. It can be rewarding career-wise if the fund performs well and if the seniors like you. It can also be a negative if you value WLB. Everyone values different things.  

Don't expect any WLB at all, it's just the reality of it since there aren't that many resources so a lot of the work will be done from scratch / not enough people there to share the workload / the partners have a lot of pressure to have a good first fund so there will naturally be a lot of work to do in the beginning. 

The culture will be make or break too. Since the team is so small, if one guy is a prick then that's a high % of the team that are pricks. Vice versa if the guy is a nice guy. At a larger firm, this is kind of a smaller risk because the larger team means you can "avoid" people and get staffed with others that are easier to work with - you won't have this luxury at a smaller firm. 

"I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse."
 

I’ve worked at two funds that were on their first fund both times they were incubated and trying to raise a truly new fund under the partners for the first time.

I think a big risk is you don’t have a track record from them around how well they can invest and harvest. Taking a job you should think like an investor in many ways. Which fund would you rather LP?

I think at any buyside role it’s really hard to make more at a smaller fund. As a Sr A I was getting 7.5bps on ~$2B with $315k cash for example.  
 

Will a $500M fund give you over 30bps as a Sr A? Probably not if I had to guess. Because it only do you want more carry but so will a VP, principal, etc. If it’s a first time fund they probably have to share the GP carry with their anchor LP so there’s less to go around than you think and the founding partner also wants to get rich. 

 

general question: When people talk about lets say 30bps, is it:

  • 30bps of the 20% i.e. 0.3% of the 20% carried, lets say a 100m fund goes 2x with 20% carried it will be 20m carried pool times 0.3% = 60k
  • 0.3% of the capital gain i.e. 100m capital gain * 0.3% = 300k 
 

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