Muslim in IB/PE London
Hi everyone, practicing muslim starting my SA in a couple of months and was wondering whether anyone here is in the same situation. I observe the Friday prayer every week, so would I be able to get an hour and a half or so off around lunch time during that day + with regards to the work in itself I'm in Infra, so I do not think there will be much conflict there.
If anyone is in the same boat or has an insight, your advice would be greatly appreciated. Cheers
Pretty sure IB is haram in Islam bro
Riba (usury) is haram. So, I think working in Levfin + buyside credit etc would be haram. But regarding M&A advisory and whatnot, I haven't been able to find any info online indicating that it's forbidden. I may be wrong though
Some of you guys will say anything is haram and put each other down for no reason.
Especially big coming from an "Intern in IB-M&A". Lol.
He is asking a question not asking for your judgement.
Based on your previous posts, you shouldnt be speaking
Not sure why you would think Infra would be less busy than other teams?
To answer your question - I think you should be fine for your SA, on the one condition: you make everyone in your team (incl. staffers) aware that you will observe Friday prayer. They probably will respect that considering you're an intern, and the big focus HR puts on diversity these days.
When you start FT, not sure if you'll be able to stay consistent. There will be a lot of occassions when you're just drawning in work, and you being away for a few hours will not be appreciated by your peers/superiors
I don't think it'll be less busy, what I meant was that the work in itself will not be in conflict w my beliefs.
For Friday prayer, it generally is done at a mosque, so i'd have to go out of the office. The other prayers (5 a day) could be done in the prayer room.
Do you think allocating this amount of time towards my faith would hurt my chances to convert ?
yes.
Makes sense - thanks for clarifying. Didn't realise there could be a potential conflict.
No, your chances of converting won't be impacted. If anything, I'd say even larger considering the impact diversity has on hiring.
Any bank I have seen from the inside has a "place of worship" that can be used by anyone, at any point in time. I am sure this won't be an issue at all.
Just let your manager/team know and you should be good to go.
Doubt InfraRed Partners have it
Yup they don't. But Holborn mosque is not too far. Could pray there on Fridays. On normal days, just at the office
Thanks brother
Nothing even happens on a Friday anyway, they're not busy and any big bank has WFH then anyway. Taking 1 hour out to go to Jummah should be no problem, it's not like you're consistently busy when you're at work anyway.
I've worked in finance roles during and since graduating college - IB / PE internships and analyst & associate roles in buyside gigs (ignore the username). Worked the spectrum from MM to UMM to MF. Two caveats: a - worked in the US (this might be a net positive given the hardo culture here is typically more prevalent and less of a dense muslim population on the street or in general), b - mostly in mixed credit and equity roles, not pure control PE (tho hours across roles have been similar given we do opportunistic stuff too).
That said, never once had a problem across the board with observing Friday prayer throughout internships and/or full-time roles at any level, at any sized shop (if your concern is that culture varies between type of shop, size, buyside/sell-side, etc.). Be mindful of allocating a reasonable time to observing the prayer (i.e. I've always penciled out an hour for time it takes to drive and/or walk over, pray, and then commute back with a bit of a buffer built in if I for some reason get delayed), and don't take advantage of it to push back on work. Typically, I just have that 1 hour hold recurring weekly on my calendar and label it Friday prayer so people are aware that's exactly what I'm doing. Sometimes you may run into issues whereby an external meeting with Mgmt teams, 3rd party vendors, Sponsors, etc., may be scheduled that overlap with your prayer time but your associate should be ok with covering the notes for the call and/or can just ask someone to record and you can listen after and circulate notes. Obviously, the higher you get the more your availability matters if you're leading these calls and by that time people will respect that you have a hold on your calendar. As people mentioned above, you shouldn't have any issues, especially with drive towards diversity. Just make sure your work isn't effected.
Generally speaking, my advice, and understand that you may not have asked for it: be staunch in your beliefs and unwilling to compromise on stuff that matters. If someone pushes back on Friday prayer, that's not the type of person you want to be working for in the long term because they do not respect your personal boundaries. Now, I know people tend to say this stuff all the time - the "don't work for this type of firm" and most of the time I'm of the opinion that you just suck it up and take it - why the heck would you just give up working for a firm that you strived to be placed at for the last decade over having to put up with someones extra bs, or having a demanding boss, or working too much (within reason), etc.. But in this regard, when people don't respect your religious boundaries (Friday prayer, Eid days off, praying 5x a day in a separate space if youre that diligent, etc.) you gotta move. If you are practicing, you understand that religion comes first.
Last point, from my experience, people in this industry generally like juniors with a bit of backbone both in and outside of work. For example, speaking up and defending their views on a deal or investment merit, but also on social cues like being uncompromising on their principals. I've actually been complimented by my colleagues for sticking to my religious beliefs like not drinking, praying, eating only zabihah, etc.
Hopefully that helps!
Thank you so much for your comment brother, really insightful stuff. I agree with your point, religion must come first at all costs, and if they can't deal w me allocating a small portion of my time towards that, then it is not in my best interest to work there full time
Not OP but incoming IB analyst at US at a very hardo group, who do I conversate with regarding the prayer times etc. staffer?
I would recommend just talking directly to the deal teams that you're staffed with. Doesn't need to go all the way up to the MD but junior / mid-level folks should be aware that you are out at this time. They'll pass on the message if your MD ever inquires; it's their job to manage up, while ensuring both work quality and work/life balance of the junior deal team members, so let them do their job. As an analyst, I worked in pretty lean deal teams (myself, a mid-level, and an MD) and my mid-level knew I was going to be out (never had the need to directly communicate with MD - sure that the mid-level told him directly whenever the topic came up). As an associate at another shop, I communicated this directly with the VP / Principal. On rare occasion, directly told a partner too if staffed with him on a portco. Never had any problems across any deal team / deal. Moreover, given you work with the same pool of analysts / associates, in time, everyone will be aware that you are unavailable at XYZ time on Friday.
You could tell the staffer too but not sure if it provides any incremental benefit - the staffer's is unlikely to tell deal teams that you'll be out on Fridays at XYZ time before staffing you. The onus falls on you.
We have at least two Muslims in our investment team (PE). I don’t know the degree to which they are observant, but it would be considered absolutely insane not to afford them the time to do their prayers.
Additionally, at my firm we do 2-3 days in the office / 2-3 days WFH (for most people; I tend to be in the office every day because I have a toddler at home who wants attention if he hears me). Most Fridays, the office is fairly empty, so in 95% of the time, most folks wouldn’t even notice you’re taking the time.
I definitely echo the comments above - a place that doesn’t understand these very basic needs of yours is just not a place that deserves you.
Also a muslim in infra PE in London, further down in career. Echoing what others are saying - it is going to be totally fine. I know muslims in various roles who carve out time for Jummah and also pray regularly in the office. Having a backbone and respecting yourself and your beliefs is a very positive character trait, as you respect those of others.
Funny story but the only time I have seen anyone raise an eyebrow was several years ago when we had an intern who would regularly splash through the office with soaking wet feet in wet flip flops after doing wudu, lol. Just don't do that and you'll be fine.
Echoing what others said here - you will never have a problem if you overcommunicate with your teams. That means when you first start, tell your staffer whatever your religious requirements are, and tell any deal teams if you anticipate there being overlap. I work in an NYC BB and was worried that people wouldn't be understanding, but have had nothing but the opposite experience. It seems that we are very fortunate to be entering the industry now when there is a lot more awareness, versus people that joined even 10 years ago who had a lot more difficulties. I personally don't go to bars or happy hours, shake hands with the opposite gender, etc., and have found no issue with how I get along with my group or how I am performing because everybody knows my religious sensitivities. Again, the key is to just overcommunicate and people will actually end up respecting you more.
Anyone that may be struggling with this, feel free to PM me - I totally understand. Happy to chat off of WSO as well.
Interest rates are haram (Riba): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba
So obviously IB, PE, S&T and any other fields of finance that uses debt instruments are haram too.
Real practicing Muslims do not work in finance in Western financial hubs OP.
To quote the second paragraph of the Wikipedia page you have linked:
There is a chapter within that Wikipedia page on various definitions according to various interpretations of text, such as riba not being applicable to investment loans as investment loans were not practiced in Meccan society. Not sure if you fully appreciate the subjectivity which could be applied here, feels like you're using a No True Scotsman fallacy.
An example of a similar subjective area which comes to mind was how Buddha was a practicing vegetarian, yet would respectfully accept any food offered with good intention, including meat.
You are right - but I believe you can work at pure advisory shops, nevertheless let's say you are working in IB and it is haram it necessarily doesn't make you not a Muslim anymore, you are obviously sinning and you'll just build up your bad deeds …. what makes you not a Muslim is not praying.
Lol if you're taking your religion from Wikipedia you have a problem. It's not that black and white - should talk to a scholar. Anyone should know exactly what they're doing and its permissibility before starting to work, and that doesn't happen from Wikipedia.
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