PE Seniors: How do you guys manage WLB in the long term, whats the path to long term success/avoiding burnout in PE?
Before anyone points out that there are many such threads on the forum, yes there are and I have used the search function and gone through those and I still have a couple of qustions and a couple of observations.
I'm trying to get the opinion of senior guys here so ideally VP and above. Not to say everyone's opinions aren't important but I'm primarily concerned about how seniors are balancing their careers vs. their lives in the long term. Working 80-100 hours a day as an Analyst/Associate sucks I'm sure but you probably aren't married (I am now) and probably don't have kids (I dont).
Many of the opinions and much of the advice on this forum is from juniors and I'm curious about your (seniors) perspectives and how they may have changed as you have aged/progressed/life catches up and when "prestige" and "comp" are no longer your primary motivations.
Are you able to set boundaries at the higher levels? Is the job worth it? Do you get caught up in a vicious circle of constantly rising comp and lifestyle inflation and find it difficult to switch?
To those that have kids, how do you balance the financial upside of PE/IB with the downside of maybe not saying your family/children enough or maybe effects on your health long term.
I'm also curious on what everytone thinks about how much preference is given on the forum to BBs and MFs. Much of what I have read points to these firms having horrible hours and how is that sustainable in the long term? Are you not better off at smaller less prestigious middle market firms or boutique banks where you have more control over how you balance life/work.
Learn to use the search function.
Smoke, you genuinely suck.
I'm a senior VP. Happy to chat, pm me.
OP would you mind keeping some of the convo on the thread? Would be an interesting read for others too.
No worries, happy to keep the convo here. My experience has been far different than the below. As an associate, I worked 8a - 10p Monday - Thursday, maybe 6/7p exit on Fridays, and probably 4 hours/day each weekend day. This added up to probably 75 hours a week on normal weeks and midnight/1a/2a nights when busier (so probably 90-100+ hours).
I spent a few years as associate, graduated to senior associate for a few years (managerial role, no longer modeling, comparable to most VP roles), then now am at the tail end of my VP program (probably more comparable to most firm's principal role). I probably work more like 50-60 hours a week now (albeit slow market) with far less weekend work and far more control over my evenings. (+Adding: Probably get in at 8:30, leave around 7, maybe 0-60 mins. of evening work unless in final stages of a deal; lighter schedule on Fridays).
While the stress level definitely increases, the pure workload is always going to be highest at associate, with leverage from there. Thinking about it plainly, I can review in 20-30 mins. something that took an associate 2-3+ hours to assemble. While I'm working on more separate deals and initiatives than junior resources, the leverage of having contributors under me has dramatically improved my quality of life, just through the natural progression of moving into managerial roles and having progressively larger deal teams under me tackling the more time-consuming tasks.
Overall, there is hope! While the funnel narrows and stress increases, raw hours absolutely improve. I genuinely enjoy the job and that sentiment has improved as I've moved away from day-to-day grind work and gotten increased exposure to thematic sourcing, partnering with execs at my portcos, strategic planning with my companies, and other more stimulating aspects of the job.
Hey - I was the one who commented below. After I wrote my comment I reached out to a bunch of my friends in similar roles to where you were a couple years back (managerial VP/SA, but not the "principal"/"deal QB VP" level) and turns out they all had similar things to say as you. I think it may be my fund in particular, and will give it some soul searching. The hours / lonely nature of the job make it easy to think that your fund's culture is the only way - a bit like stockholm syndome.
Thanks for giving some perspective.
Thank you for the detailed comment. I've spoken to some people in person in London at MM firms and their experience seems to be close to yours for the reasons that you mentioned i.e. you have associates/analysts under you and you're better able to manage your workload.
This might be a difficult question to answer, but how much of your WLB is down to the culture at your firm vs. your specific situation? Do you think there is a phenomenon that as you transition from Assoc to VP, many people aren't able to set boundaries/manage work load more intelligently/push back on hours or is it completely firm dependant?
Also do you think the longer hours are justified by means of better performance / higher deal flow.
I've worked in LO AM only and in my experience, the hours varied widely depending on the culture of the firm and at many places the seniors just kind of get used to their hours overtime. Maybe you tell yourself you'll scale down once you make it higher but that rarely happens, people get lazy / relationships suffer and many people spend more time in the office due to that too and hand out meaningless work. There is a culture of "we had bad so you must too and it is a right of passage"
I pushed back on my hours once I'd established myself in the firm and it was not liked at first, but then people got used to it (and nobody could complain since I was always ranked highly at year end). But there was always a real danger of people fucking you over / office politics if things go wrong because you're one of the few guys who actually has a life.
Would quite literally kill for those hours as an associate
Very interesting to read, although one question / situation from me that I'd love for your perspective on.
Based on the midlevels on my firm, I'm shocked at how little leverage they actually get from associates (to phrase it rather simplistically). To unpack that premise a bit more, obviously an associate at our fund is pulling together a model / analysis that saves the midlevel plenty of time, although I've found that they're spending a great deal of time on other things like cell checking my model, re-reviewing the CIM / VDR to revise operating assumptions in ridiculous detail, reviewing each backup of the sellside QoE file, etc.
From my vantage point, this all adds up to a very similar workload from "analytical" tasks, which is supplemented by an additional set of midlevel-type responsibilities like exec summaries, preparing for ICs / calls with lenders, networking with bankers, more ownership of portfolio company responsibilities, etc. This all to say, midlevels at my fund have it rough and are burning the midnight oil just as much as associates.
Does that seem out of line with what you've seen at your shop / those of peers? Based on your comment, it seems like it is and my guess is that I'm either seeing (i) inefficient midlevels, (ii) midlevels that are micro-managing and therefore operating more like senior associates, or (iii) my fund is poorly staffed.
Wish I knew. Pretty rough for me.
Just newly at that mid-level myself. It's maybe less hours than an associate (though that's the bare minimum I feel like we should ask for) but so, so, so much more stress. You either get used to it or you don't.
Realistically the big difference is that you have better line of sight to Friday night, Saturday night and (maybe) Saturday daytime. If you're not on a live deal, you can actually sleep on on Saturday and do daytime activities. Sounds menial but for me means a lot.
In terms of gym, going home at 7 and eating dinner, etc - none of it. Still coming home 9-12 most nights. Still rarely getting a good workout in. And that's on no live deals - when things kick up you're a banking analyst with more stress.
$ is good though. That can't be denied. And there's stress in other jobs....I don't think there's many better places with as much comp for as much long term career stability, so you give up QoL.
Are your ussually working on Sundays? Would you say your routine is representative of the people around you at similar level or does the firm/culture play a part. Also are you in the US or the EU and are there any differences?
US large cap. Sunday, if no live deal or portco work stream then likely either no work or minimal work (like a couple hours).
At my firm the senior level (non-partner) works similar hours to associates (in office close to 10pm weekdays, on call full weekends and usually working for parts of it).
Vp is not senior
So being a VP means being in a junior role then, is that what you're saying?
wso-ers are obsessed with semantics.
VP is midlevel
That’s a false dichotomy, VP is mid level neither senior or junior
is entry level
I’d be interested to hear thoughts on this too. In my view the big levers are:
These are interconnected levers that create a virtuous cycle. The right people on your team will take the intentional guidance you give them and 1+1=5 with them. The wrong people won’t put in the hours for that value to compound. But even the best people can be ruined by a leader who doesn’t sequence work thoughtfully.
Good response, couldn't agree more
Following
I think it's firm dependent on how much better it gets, but as other have said, it does get better, and has for me. Here's why:
-I don't have primary responsibility for creating time intensive deliverables.
-I leverage a team of really strong associates who make my life immeasurably easier.
-I have gained enormous efficiencies in reviewing materials from endless reps
-I set my own calendar and control when most of the meetings will take place, so can arrange personal items as they arise.
-I can say "no" to events/meetings and even deals that I don't think will be value-add.
To be clear, the stress does not improve. You are managing a lot of personalities and are 25% psychologist. You must become a revenue generator, manager, executive, etc, and your deals need to perform.
How do you manage to take vacations? Are you working during them and do they get cancelled due to work emergencies?
You can certainly go on vacation, but you need to still be responsive via email - delegate tasks, quickly review items, dial into investment committees if they get called, etc....
You can also be smart about timing. For example, February/March are almost always busy periods (lots of new deals launch, etc.) but August is historically quiet, as is the December holiday period. People tend to coalesce around these periods which generally means you can enjoy your trip more (since lots of people are out at the same time across PE and banking).
Prior to becoming "senior", vacations were borderline pointless as I was just basically working from a remote locations / cancelling, etc. If the stars aligned I could get maybe a long weekend off.
Now I try not to work on vacations unless necessary. As others have pointed out, things come up. But I can handle almost everything strictly from my phone usually via a phone call or text/email. And usually not to the point where it blows up my plans for the day. I also try to schedule during slower periods, etc.
How do u say no to deals ?? On big deal teams I've slowly eased out if I'm busy and think it's going nowhere but 9/10 times I can't say no to the partner. I can voice my opinion etc but to say no this deal is shit I'm not working on it would get me reamed out.
Re vacation I can unplug 95% it's quite nice as principal will cover and Vice versa. For partners is tougher as there is no one to cover but they can just hit pause on all work if they want anyway
Fair question. Need to be senior enough. What I really meant is that because I originate and control my own deal flow, I am the one making a judgement on whether something is worth the time to pursue.
Not in PE but my father is. He is the second-in-command at a fund which most people on here would have heard of and would probably be safely considered a firm just a tier below Blackstone, Carlyle, KKR, et al. His fund is global so he is constantly traveling (mostly Europe and Asia). Scratch that - he has an absolutely insane (suicidal?) travel schedule!
He literally spends more time in airplanes and hotels than his actual home in NYC (which he lives in under 183 days anyways). Without exaggeration, every single time (save for a brief period during the pandemic) I speak to him on the phone, he is in a different city. I know it sounds absurd, but I cannot recall a time where I spoke to him on the phone and he was in City A, and the subsequent time I spoke to him he was still in City A (obviously wouldn't be the case if we spoke daily, but we don't).
Granted, some of the travel is not work but extra-curricular activities (e.g. one time I caught up with him over the phone he was in Korea, when I asked him what was bringing him to Korea, he said he was there to potentially buy a Korean professional baseball team (thankfully, this did not materialize)
As a kid, my dad was frequently not home for dinner, he never coached any of my little league teams and easily missed 60%+ of my sports games / concerts in school, but we have a pretty good relationship and he has made an effort to be involved in his grandkid's lives. My dad's relationship to my mother is another story though... they are miraculously somehow still married, but there is a massive amount of anger / frustration / resentment and I unfortunately had to witness some ugly things growing up.
If you feed this story to an AI art generator you will get a pretty sick tiktok
Fr tho thanks for sharing
CD&R?
chad dad
(might be somewhat unrealted) but similar story with you both on father's lifestyle and relationship with mom..differerence is that I am super scared of him growing up, maybe still now and don't really know how to spend a large chunk of time with him anymore...and just curious on your life path, are you deciding to go on the PE path as well and embracing the lifestyle? Or are there any other ways around this. Thank you.
I've been in PE 7 years and am wrapping up my third year as a VP - the current fund we are investing out of is just shy of $1B. The role and skills to be successful at the VP and up ranks are very different than what makes a good Associate / Senior Associate, so there is definitely a learning curve. You are responsible for outcomes and the work of others (internal and external), and have new responsibilities such as business development. The role is much more intellectually stimulating and requires more original thought than at the junior ranks. I am working ~60 hours a week typically and that will flex up if we are closing a deal - the hours are much better than at the Associate level. You have the opportunity to set more boundaries and make time for personal interests - my firm is good about this and the Partners trust others to do their job after a while and recognize that you need time away from work or its going to be tough to sustain. The big negative from a WLB perspective is travel - I am traveling about 1x / week - I do not mind it generally, but if you are busy on a deal you just have less days during the week to get stuff done so are very busy the other days. There is definitely more stress in the role as you have to own the outcome and when something is not going well it sucks up a ton of time. All that being said, I do think it is important that you need to enjoy the work you are doing for it to be sustainable because you are working long hours, are gone from home a lot, and do have to make personal sacrifices given the fast paced nature of the job that leads to your schedule being outside of your control at times. If you are in PE at all, you are making good money, but it does take a long time for the carry to actually become cash flow so to get the financial upside you need to stay put at a firm for a while. I think it is also important to find a firm where you enjoy the culture, whatever that is, because longevity is the only path to realizing carry and if you do not see yourself staying somewhere for a while make a jump elsewhere.
Thanks for sharing. Since you mentioned "enjoy the work you are doing", which parts do you enjoy i am curious, "modeling"? Would a person with traits of "OCD" normally enjoy it more? Just curious on that front, sorry if the Q seems to be silly.
I'll get a lot of monkey shit for this, but one way to manage not burning out is not having kids. The last thing you want / need after a stressful day / week is a screaming kid, a spouse looking for you to take on parental responsibilities, the financials cost of raising a kid (nanny / private school), or being forced to commute 1 hour + each way (assuming you work in NYC and have to move out to the suburbs to have more space because a real apartment will cost millions and private school is $50k a year). For some people this brings them joy, but for me, that just sounds like hell.
Completely with you on this
so basically prioritize work above any relationship or potential family, gotcha
Not at all, quite the opposite. Just avoid having kids. That's the biggest stressor. I'm yet to meet a parent that isn't pulling their hair out, unless they have full time around the clock coverage from nannys and no financial woes. So basically, wait until you're a partner to have them.
The greatest investment you can make in life is kids.
Hard to believe but you’ll thank yourself the day they are born.
How so? It literally is a cash drain for 20 years with no guarantee of any kind of payback.
You’re completely missing all the benefits of having children. Do you really think that 80%+ of people in high finance jobs who have tirelessly worked for their careers but still decide to have kids are doing it for no reason? Having kids is emotionally rewarding in a way that your job literally never will be. Yes, kids are physically fatiguing, but your body is literally imbued with a higher self purpose when you have children (a biological factor, not just some placebo people claim to have; you can look up studies done on this) which ultimately gives you more drive to do well and provide. Obviously there are stories of people hating having kids, but these are almost always the result of those parents not giving their kids the care and attention they deserve. Having children will also significantly improve your EQ, which is something that becomes more and more important as you climb up the ladder.
It’s honestly so ridiculous to look at having kids from a financial cost/benefit perspective. There are things far more important than money.
You said it yourself, kids are physically fatiguing. Mentally too. Some people can put up with it, God bless them. I've seen too many people think it's great and then they have kids and are miserable. I've seen it compared to being an IB analyst, but IB lasts 2 years, where with a kid its 18 years (if not longer). The ultimate payoff is maybe they grow up to become a decent person, and then you can have a relationship as an adult. The payoff just doesn't sound worth it. Obviously others have different view points or see a payoff earlier on.
On the feeling the need to provide, is that a good thing? Or do you now feel that you have to provide, as you now have the higher fixed cost of raising a kid, and it's not something you can really cut. If you lose your job / career or want to transition to something entrepreneurial that cost is still there.
This is not wrong.
My father in PE opted to have us live in the city as opposed to the burbs, and he was able to make this work due to a live-in nanny / au pair, and a cook and house cleaners/maids (not sure if "maid" is now considered an archaic term, but it's what we used to call the ladies who would come into our house to clean) who would come to our home 5 times a week. Tuition for when I was going to private K-12 was "only" $22k-$23k ($34k-$35k adjusted for inflation), so tuition today has obviously far outpaced the rate of inflation.
Est mollitia et quae alias. Fugiat porro hic qui et eos voluptatem.
Commodi architecto necessitatibus odit reprehenderit. Corrupti eos odit sit. Aut quo nostrum et officia.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quam maiores ut reiciendis iure ea eveniet. Quos eaque perferendis error sed aperiam omnis exercitationem. Accusamus adipisci rerum voluptas numquam. Modi aut aliquam alias odit culpa velit impedit aliquam. Ut perspiciatis optio iste deserunt illo voluptas qui et. Illum saepe nostrum quaerat et.
Ab non minima autem doloremque. Nisi voluptas non dolorem blanditiis illo aliquid non. In consectetur consequatur repudiandae dolores incidunt minus. Libero qui sunt dignissimos. Iste veniam id impedit dolores pariatur libero sit. Illum laborum qui quia facilis ut porro. Enim quia repellendus sed blanditiis voluptas commodi.
Blanditiis distinctio numquam veritatis fuga. Voluptates sint quia ullam. Ut reiciendis placeat praesentium vitae dolorem ut. Quam consequatur labore odio deleniti qui qui. Optio voluptas non occaecati et ut nam possimus. Officiis et consectetur sapiente porro sequi sed.
Qui aut magni blanditiis et omnis blanditiis quas voluptatibus. Rerum quis doloremque eius laboriosam eos totam. Culpa et voluptatem inventore perferendis nisi. Qui alias reiciendis officiis rerum et.