Substituting Law School for MBA?
Hey all,
I'm in a bit of a unique situation and was wondering if I could get any advice. I'm an IBD analyst headed into PE this summer at a MM shop. It seems like most associates at the firm are invited to come back after their MBAs (usually from Harvard/Stanford/Wharton). I applied to law school on a whim last year (I was planning on going if I didn't get into IBD) and I was accepted into Yale, Harvard and Stanford. I ended up deferring my admission at one of those schools for two years, but I'm not sure if I want to attend. Ideally, I'd like to get an MBA and continue the PE route, but I'm not super confident in my ability to get into a top program.
My question is, if I don't get into a top MBA program (HSW), would it be worth going to HLS or SLS over a school like Booth or Columbia? I have no idea how the PE firm feels about it, but from people I've spoken to, one of the major reasons they want you to get an MBA is for a) branding and, b) getting formal training to fill in any gaps in your business knowledge.
I think being at HLS or SLS would cover the first part, and both schools are very open with cross registering for MBA classes if I want to do so. Considering that I majored in finance in undergrad, I also feel like a lot of the material from MBA school would be repetitive and I would get a chance to learn something new in Law School. The main downside is the cost, which will be about $50k in tuition + opportunity cost (thankfully, I'll hopefully have enough saved up that debt won't be an issue). Also, if I don't have a chance to return to my firm post-MBA, how much more difficult would PE recruiting be? I've heard that most PE recruiting is done through networking, so the lack of b-school OCI doesn't hurt too much, but I'm not sure.
Thanks for any help!
Can't comment on PE or IB recruiting much at all, but why didn't you look into JD/MBA joint programs? Given that you got into Yale, Stanford and Harvard Law, I would assume you are more than qualified to gain entry to one of the joint programs. Why do you say you don't feel confident in getting into a top MBA program?
I guess it's because MBA admissions are so much more uncertain than law school admissions, especially for IBD -> PE guys. I've heard of multiple Harvard/Wharton -> GS/MS -> KKR/BX etc. guys get rejected without interview from HBS and GSB. I think I have a chance at getting into the top programs, but it's definitely not a sure thing.
Law school admissions on the whole are much more numbers-driven than b-school. Yale and Stanford are the only schools that can be considered truly holistic in their admissions, but I think being a finance guy helped set me apart in applying there, unlike in business school admissions where IBD/PE guys are a dime a dozen. I'm definitely interested in joint JD/MBA programs, but it's tough to stomach four years of $50k+ tuition and opportunity cost on top of that.
Fair enough. In terms of OCR, I think you might be a bit off with most PE recruiting coming through networking. I know that the MFs that recruit for analyst positions at Wharton/Harvard both have relatively formal processes. I imagine the same goes for business school. Given your background, I think most PE firms will know that your lack of an MBA indicates a lack of financial knowledge. My gut tells me that they are primarily looking for someone with a professional graduate degree from a name-brand institution. This usually happens to be an MBA but I don't think a JD would exclude you from that if it's what you want. Your OCR opportunities may be slightly more limited, but I think if you network well at any of those schools, breaking into a good fund is a likely scenario. My guess is that there are plenty of JDs from H/Y/S who transitioned into pure IB or PE who would be willing to help you out. But perhaps a current or previous law student interested in finance could shed some light on recruiting opportunities for law students.
No. Do not go to law school! I don't need to even read your entire post to know better. There is no correlation between a top JD and a top MBA in terms of happiness or positioning career-wise. They are different animals.
A fellow IBD - MM PE this summer commenting. I've looked at going the JD/MBA route.
Since you are going to be working in a MM shop this summer, a fair amount of associates come out of BSchool and end up at comparable or smaller shops. Obviously you understand the economics of joining growing firms that are in the MM, and getting carry earlier on. Going the law school route instead of BSchool is different, but at the same time the MM funds you could conceivably end up will most likely not have a formal process (ie hire three HSY grads every year). A fair amount of people I have spoken with who end up at MM shops (obviously speaking smaller end) came through networking and being pro-active in their search. Obviously this differs from person to person, so there is not set benchmark.
You're background, top JD with IBD and MM PE could be a catalyst to hire you (not bankable, but feasible). You could also position yourself as being a value hire with a varied skill-set, that could differentiate you from the competition. At smaller end MM firms, maximizing the value at the junior level is important, and you could easily be a valuable hire.
Another route to pursue would be to apply to the MBA programs at those aforementioned schools. Most JD/MBA schools require you to gain acceptance to both individual programs in order to matriculate. I would also speak with the MBA program prior, as being a JD/MBA candidate could help your candidacy (in how the school makes decisions to fill the breakdown of their class). If successful, you could go through the program at the added opportunity and tuition costs.
This thread might be helpful to you: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/harvardyalestanford-law-vs-boothc…
I'm shocked by how cavalier you are about spending three years of your life doing something you're not really interest in doing.
If you want to get your MBA go fuckin get it, why would you do something else? While the top MBA programs are to some extent a crap shoot, as long as you do everything you're supposed to do (get good experience, solid ECs, solid, GMAT, solid recs and essays) its not such a crap shoot that you would be the "had everything going for him" candidate that got dinged at each of HBS, Stanford and Wharton.
And how can you compare getting an MBA at Chicago vs. getting a JD at Harvard? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Are you such a mindless prestige whore that you'd rather get a degree that you don't want at Harvard vs. getting a degree you do want at a stellar but not Harvard school? And lastly, why do you have to get a degree? Have some common sense and spend the money and time on something only if it makes sense and is going to be value additive to your end goal.
All the benefits I got in buy side IB from my legal background came from what I learned working in the law firm, not what I learned at university.
Law school is case law, case law, a little legislation, case law. All essential for teaching you the foundations of law, but it doesn't teach you much about how deals get done.
Any deal that is done right doesn't end up in court. Most of the deals done wrong don't end up in court either. So years of reading case law at law school doesn't help a PE or IB career.
The benefit of being an ex-lawyer in PE/IB comes from learning how to structure deals, structure around issues and see how the legal mechanics work in a deal that works. You get that experience working as a lawyer after law school, not at law school. If you're not planning to be a lawyer post-law school, then the experience will be largely a waste of time when you go back into PE.
Except you'll have a good network into new associates at white shoe law firms.
Which will be largely useless in PE.
I'm guessing the poster here is in the UK or Europe - their system is different.
Top US law schools, while still heavily case law oriented during 1L, offer various electives that are actually more practical than what you will learn as a junior M&A lawyer at a biglaw firm as a junior associate. [I was an associate at a top US law firm - Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, Skadden]
I think what you will lose by not getting the MBA is a formal recruiting process, and a difficulty explaining why you got a JD to potential non-law employers.
That being said, an MBA education is a joke (it's simply a ticket you need to attend a really well orchestrated recruiting fair), whereas you will actually learn some (keyword: some -- i.e. 2 & 3L elective courses) practical material in law school.
You will not be able to justify a JD or JD/MBA from an ROI standpoint compared to just getting an MBA, since you will presumably end up in the same spot as someone who just got the MBA.
That being said, sometimes (and people on this forum, myself including, often forget this) it isn't always about the ROI. What it is about to you may be different that what it was to me, etc.
P.S. law school sucks -- lots of work. Business school is awesome.
I will reiterate that law school plain sucks. Period. Stay away from it. To even consider law school is stupid any way. An MBA is the way to go here.
When I was in college I had plans to go to law school until a friend who was a year older and in law school told me: don't go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer. MBA programs seem like they're at least fun, law school seems like it blows. And being a lawyer seems even worse than law school. The lawyers I know that have jumped over to banking or PE have tended to have at least a few years of experience as a practicing attorney, if not a lot of experience and can make it rain. I don't know anyone who's come right out of law school so you risk going to school, spending a lot of money/going into debt, the opportunity cost of 3 years and then possibly not being land a job back in PE and having to work as a lawyer for a few years. And like Ssit stated, if you get back into PE the network you build will be a bunch of associates at high end firms who will just be trying to get you to use them for their legal services.
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