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Great topic Ant,
My older brother is currently an architect major entering his senior yr, he's looking to make a jump to finance in the coming years. How do MSF programs welcome architect majors (from a top northeast architecture program) with GPA of 3.0-3.3 and solid work experience in that field?
He is contemplating on, either applying for MSF right out of UG or taking a job in an architecture rotational program that last 3 years than upon completing that program go for an MBA. But he has no intentions of staying for in architecture though.
95% sure a search would find the answer to this but it'll get the ball rolling so fuck it. Does an MSF eliminate your chance at later getting an MBA? I've been trying to avoid it because I've assumed they were somewhat mutually exclusive in regards to utility (i.e. no point in getting both).
@ Lotion - You can get into a MSF program without a finance or business UG, but make sure your brother does a couple things.
1) Have the necessary math/stats classes. You usually want to have at least business calc with calc 1 preferred. Have some stats and probability classes. If you have those you are good. I'd suggest having a good story for why the switch.
2) Start reading the usual suspects (WSJ/FT, Economist, Businessweek, etc). Be able to know and discuss finance.
3) Try and get a PWM internship or something business related. It will help with OCR when you do get into the MSF and will further show your business interest.
With a 3-3.3 and say a 650 or better GMAT he will be competitive at most schools (with Claremont and MIT being the exceptions). Claremont likes non traditional students, but you are going to want to have a 700 or better on your GMAT to be competitive.
@GS - No, it does not. It might make you want to consider studying something complimentary for your MBA that isn't finance. I want to do an MBA in a couple years and I would study maybe international business, strategy, etc. If you have a good finance background and a masters in finance you don't really need to study it at the MBA level.
Since the MSF is more of a junior degree many people still go on and pursue an MBA later on.
I'm glad to hear that MBA and MSF are not mutually exclusive.
Ant, how useful might a MSF be if my plan is to move to buy-side? I may join a temp-to-perm program at a bank soon as an IBD analyst, and if I wind up staying for the long-run (2+ years), I'm thinking that a MSF combined with having passed CFA II (potentially III) will make moving into a hedge fund or asset manager a lot easier.
Note: HF or AM is where I'd like to wind up, as opposed to staying in IBD or going into PE.
What kind of positions at companies recruit MSF candidates? Are FO roles in banking or trading available?
@ TNA
I am an international student finishing my degree in 2013 ( non target UG in Acc&Fin) and really interested in a career in IBD. Do you think its better for me to aim for an MSF in the US or just go to top schools in UK (LSE/Imperial/Oxford)? I do not mind if I work in Europe or the US.
Isn't getting both MSF and MBA just a waste of time and $$$.
Just the MBA is a big waste of $$$ - the MSF is a good option if you want to move into finance or study something useful a bit longer. In Europe almost everyone has a master, so might as well get an MSF if you want to do finance...
That said - I have 5 friends I know of from my MSF who are doing an MBA at the moment, or who have finished it... So definitely not mutually exclusive.
MSF is only good if you go to a SIGNIFICANTLY better university.
MSF is only good if you go to a SIGNIFICANTLY better university.
So I need to do a GMAT for my admissions for the MSF, at this stage not really sure if an MBA will be relevant to me but obviously don't want to rule it out, and I wouldn't be so keen on retaking the GMAT. So is it feasible to get into an MSF and an MBA in a five year period (i.e. from admission to MSF to admission to MBA)? Taking the GMAT again wouldn't be the end of the world, just would be handy if I could potentially kill two birds with one stone.
@FSC - MSF plus CFA LII will probably help you with AM more than HF. Then again, the MSF will help you get that first job and without that you can't get the next, etc .
@fedman12 - I'd say most are banking, F500, some AM, Big 4 valuation/advisory, credit analyst. A few people go into/get trading.
@seeker - Sponsorship is difficult to come by in the US right now so if you aren't a citizen you will be facing an uphill battle if you are specifically looking at banking. I usually advise international MSF students to be broad with their job search.
So in your case I would probably recommend a top UK/European program. Do remember that Europe's economy is in rough shape also so nothing is for sure.
@ladubs111 - You need strong work experience to be in the running for a top MBA. Without that you are at a disadvantage. The MSF helps you with this. It can also help you make up for a poor UG GPA or experience. Also, remember, that while the main MSF schools (Nova, Vandy, BC, OSU, Claremont, etc) might not be Ivy's or full targets, they are well know and well ranked schools. A lot of MSF students come from small schools, lower ranked state schools ,etc. Places that don't even have strong F500 OCR. So many times these MSF programs are a brand increase as well as offering better OCR.
So no, I wouldn't say it is a waste. You should also remember that a large amount of MBAs have other masters also. People with Macc's, masters in engineering, international relations, etc.
@Blackbox - You would have to apply on your 4th year of work, assuming you got a job as soon as the MSF ended. Since it is good for 5 years and you would take it before the MSF started (and MSF's are 1 year programs) you would have 4 years remaining before you apply for your MBA. Feasible, but just keep that in mind.
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for s/t or maybe prop shops, would i be better off with an MFE, or is there a MSF program that is known to send people to trading?
Will be applying to MSF/MMS programs this fall as well!
The schedule has been posted online; looks like solid exposure to what the program offers. Hope you guys are able to attend.
http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/business/graduate/specializedprogra…
http://www.msbusinessdegrees.com/
Check this out also.
HI,
An MSF is a specialized degree in finance. It usually encompasses coursework that you would see on the CFA. Quantitative finance degrees are more math and programming focused and probably better suited for those with comp science, engineering or math backgrounds.
The level of math you need for an MSF program is usually calc and stats. Quant finance programs are looking for much higher levels of math.
Which one is preferred by the HF or the AM companies? I am computer science graduate from India with two years of work exp. I am looking forward to applying for the msf programs in US, UK and Singapore. My aim is to break into the HF industry.
Could you please advise me on this.
Regards,
I'd probably look into a Quant finance program if I were you. Check out Quantnet.
Still debating on whether or not to apply. My thing is it's a huge investment and I'm still not certain it will produce a good career.
I come from a non-target and want to get into IB. Is a MSF from Vandy, Nova, BC ect my best route into the industry.
An MSF is one way to get into industry. Whether it is the best route is really an individual question.
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I think the placements are a blend to be honest. My class was like 15-16 students and the other class was over 20. They need to add more for sure though.
I'll bring it up to the grad office and see if I can have them add other placements.
Oh, two that are missing are the two PhD students, one from my class and one from last years class. People in my class are already getting promoted or switching industries so some of that should be noted as well.
If you look at career placement of the top msf programs, the vast majority go into prop trading firms or banks, in quant research/trading/risk management roles. Very few go into hedge funds or asset management. If the latter is your interest, you're better off doing an MBA at a top program. The masters finance/financial engineering programs are very specialized and niche, and you need to make sure you know what you're getting into.
I think you're getting the MFE and the MSF mixed up here
I'm aware of the difference. The job placement at both is similar. Look at MFin at princeton and MIT, MFE at berkeley, masters financial math at stanford and nyu, etc., and the graduates end up at similar places: prop-trading and bank trading desks. If you're interested in hedge funds or IM, it's the wrong program to go to. You're much better off with a top MBA.
MIT is the only true MSF that you listed. Princeton is more of a math finance degree. If you look at the resumes and class profile of Princeton students you can see the difference since they are more in line with an MBA program than an MSF.
MFE programs will place you in quant roles, whether it is at a big bank or a hedge fund. Considering the nature of a hedge fund, having a computational/financial engineering background can be very helpful.
Comparing an MSF to an MBA is unfair because of the difference in students. The MSF is a degree for those with 0-2 years experience, with the majority having 1 year or less. These students go into all types of careers, but at a junior level. Plenty go into asset management, investment banking, F500, trading roles, consulting, valuation, Big 4, etc. But they all go in at a junior level.
Considering that investment management would prefer someone with experience and a CFA, it makes sense that more of these people will be found at the MBA level than at the MSF level. Also, the MBA is a mature degree, with all the top schools offering it and recruiters knowing about it and how to fit graduates into their organization. The MSF is relatively new, with a small handful of schools truly offering it. Recruiters and firms are just now realizing the value of the degree and how graduates can be placed within their organization.
So of course, if you have 3-5 years experience and can get into a T10 MBA program, do not forgo this for an MSF. The MBA will do much better for you.
But, if you have less experience or maybe you cannot get into a top MBA program, the MSF is a better option. It is a focused study, takes a year less and is cheaper. Outside of FO finance jobs the MSF is often considered to be equal to an MBA and it also allows you to keep the MBA option on the table if you improve your profile in another couple of years.
No degree is absolutely better, just better for the individual depending on their circumstances. If anything, the MSF will hopefully take people from MBA programs that shouldn't be doing them, who would otherwise go for an MBA because of the lack of another option. There is a large space between UG and MBA and the MSF fills this nicely.
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+1 for MSF 2014
I want to know the cheapest MSF out of the top programs out there. Ideally I want a $20k program with brand recognition. Being a finance guy I want a high ROI :D
Right now, out of all the programs, Villanova has the lowest tuition. But keep in mind that you can get into higher priced programs and get scholarship money. Depends on your profile, etc.
Just got acceptance into the MSF at Villanova with 3.5 gpa, 670 gmat, 3 months work experience as financial analyst at engineering firm.
internship experience*
I applied this year and I felt that posting a profile would be helpful. GPA 3.01 Biology GMAT 680 (41, 41) Previous Experience: One summer MM IB SA, research summer on a government grant, research assistant In: Duke, Wake (with 5K), Ohio State (with approx. 20k), Villanova Out: UVA (Finance Track)
Applied to both mba and mfin programs this year.
Profile: 3.78 gpa from a top 5 u.s. university, econ major, 780 GMAT (51 quant, 47 verbal), 337 GRE (170 quant, 167 verbal), 4 years exotic derivatives trading at a BB.
For mfin, i applied to princeton, nyu, mit, lse, and lbs and have interviews at all of them.
Have you had your MIT interview yet? I have mine tomorrow. Nice job getting an interview at Princeton. I would have loved to apply to the program, but wanted less-quantitative programs.
I had MIT last week. Not technical at all, mostly basic resume stuff such as professional experience, my goals, why mfin, why MIT, etc. They're looking mostly for fit once you make it to the interview stage.
Good luck.
^ great app. Right now I am looking at MSF programs in the West Coast so CMC would be one. But the application deadline is March 8, it might be too late for me. What other schools in california are tier 1?
Thanks. In california, obviously stanford's financial mathematics program is awesome along with berkeley's financial engineering program. Stanford, however, leans much younger, and they actually accept very few Americans who did not attend stanford undergrad. It's mostly young internationals from China, India, Russia, France, mixed with super bright stanford undergrads. I didn't even apply there because I figured that even with my profile getting in would be very tough.
So I got accepted into the Villanova MSF and I am really excited about this. I am still waiting to hear back from BC, WUSTL, and University of Texas. Unlike most of the people who use this website, my sights are not set on investment banking. My goal is to get into either corporate finance or asset management (anything with researching securities) because I need that work life balance to keep me sane. Will Villanova give me good opportunities to get into either of these fields? Or are they a MM ibanking specialty school? What about the other schools that I have mentioned? I would really appreciate the input.
Have you taken a look at LinkedIn and/or contacted TNA? From what he has posted, Villanova places very well into F500 corporate finance.
Villanova has all the major F500 companies come for rotational programs. Most MSF students ignore these so you will have little competition (each year is different though). We had someone go into J&J's FLDP program, into Comcast, into Siemens, etc.
This is interesting. If all the students are ignoring these positions, does that mean most, if not all, are trying to break into IB? And if this is true, do most of them succeed? What are their backup options in case they do not get hired as an IB?
I am slightly confused. Is this topic for people who have already applied? Because this year's admissions is for Class of 2014 students. Those applying NEXT year will be applying to MSF Class of 2015.
I'm looking to get into MIT MSF. Is my application competitive? 4.0 undergrad GPA in finance from Texas A&M with a minor in math Occupational day trader for two years TA for two sections of discrete mathematics. REALLY looking to get into MIT's program. How do i stand? Am I an average applicant, above average, below average? I hope my chances of getting in are at least 50/50
1) This is for students applying for this year.
2) Kids go for banking, trading, valuation, consulting, whatever. Just depends.
Thanks TNA, could you please tell me how I stack up against other candidates?
What is your GMAT? I would say you stand a chance, without a doubt. If you don't get into MIT I could see you getting into many of the main MSF programs, with scholarship funding also.
GMAT is 720 I might retake. 49Q. I'm not applying to any other MSF just MIT and HBS 2+2. If I dont get in i'll get some work experience and reapply.
Not to derail the thread, but are you allowed to apply for the 2+2 program? I thought that was only for college seniors.
I think you have a very, very solid chance. Perfect GPA at a known school. GMAT above the average. Math minor.
Thanks for the love!! I really will be devastated if i don't get in
Currently hating the wait to hear back from AdComms... that is all
I am too. I wish American schools had rolling admissions like European schools do. I have a month to go for the rest of my schools to finish up.
That would be great resource for those student who are looking to make his career in MSF. Thank you for sharing such a helpful resource.
I'm applying next year. I'm a junior right now.
I've been day trading for 2 years while in college. Part time but still up over 100k for two years. That very well could be considered occupational.
So I posted this in another MSF thread, but I'll post it here too. I was all pumped for applying to Villanova, Virginia, and Texas but then I ended up pursuing getting a financial analyst position at an 'F50' through a personal connection. I actually just got the official offer letter the other day. The pay is not great, the location is not great, and the job is not high finance by any means, but I'm going to take it instead of doing an MSF next year. Even if I did do an MSF next year there would be a chance that I'd end up in corporate finance anyways. I figure it's better to take this job now than go into even more debt for the remote chance of a position in IB. That's not to say I'm ruling out an MSF completely. It really just depends. I very well may decide after a year that I'd rather roll the dice on getting an MSF. I don't know at this point. But I'd rather get experience right now so at least if I decide to get an MSF I'll have something substantial on my resume. I figure there are worse situations to be in than working at one of the largest companies in the world after graduation.
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prn927, have you already applied to MIT? I ask because their final deadline passed a over a month ago. I got an interview with numbers below yours, so I would think you would at least get that.
EDIT: Just read your post where you stated that you will be applying next year. My bad...
KKS That's reassuring. May I ask what college you went to? You don't have to be specific, but was it an ivy league?Public, Private? I ask because Texas A&M is a subpar school.
prn927, I went to a satellite school from a target state school (e.g. the University of Michigan Flint, the University of Texas at San Antonio). It is a nontarget.
Interesting. I sincerely hope i get in. BOL in your admissions process!!! How was the interview?
I thought the interview was easy. I think they just want to see that you speak English well enough to make it through interviews. Make sure you do the interview in person. My interviewer interviewed me after spending half the day doing Skype interview. She did not like them and was amazed at how many Americans cannot be bothered to come to Cambridge for their interview.
What was your math background, KKS?
Business calculus and business statistics, no programming. I plan to teach myself more advanced math and programming if I am accepted, however, from talking to current students, MIT gives a math refresher course in the summer. Other than that, there is at most one heavily-quantitative class that is required. You could take non-quantitative classes. Again, this is just from talking to current students.
Applied to claremont mckenna last week, and U of I this coming week. Let's see if I can get an interview...
Waiting for responses is nail biting :/
Got in at UIUC and Santa Clara University with generous scholarship. Im leaning toward Santa Clara, silicon valley here we come!
Oh nice. I like the SCU program. Flexible and should do well with F500 type jobs in San Fran. Nice west coast addition. Congrats and let me know how you like the program once you start.
Congrats man! I happen to have a friend that graduated from UIUC, but enjoy the West Coast! If you don't mind sharing, what were your GPA and GMAT?
In at WUSTL waiting to hear back from Vandy
ANT,
I am a Canadian soon finishing undergrad and looking to do a MSF. Do you have any insights on Canadians studying in the U.S. and on if it would be difficult to find a job since I am not a U.S. citizen?
Thank you!
I have been doing some research on programs and know that there an no rankings available. I have complied a list of schools that have decent programs and are located near financial hubs for recruiting purposes. Can anybody list a top 5 or 10 from the list below?
Boston College Boston University MIT Bentley Univeristy Northeastern Claremont Mckenna LSE Oxford Cass Business School Warwick Vanderbelt Baruch University Hofstra University NYU Stern Pace University Yale Villanova Princeton Washington University St. Louis American University George Washington
That is a laundry list of programs and you'll go broke applying to them all. I'd suggest you narrow down your focus and really look at your goals post MSF. There is no ranking because these programs are highly regional.
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